End Times Speculation - A Different View

[openmind77]

Do you not consider the words of Mosaic Scripture valid about the Messiah?

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I don’t what you are talking about - I said there will be peace and security after the current period of seven years ( the Day of Judgment) - isn’t that what the Mosaic Scripture says? So what is the contradiction?

Maybe your question is, that iif Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, why was there no peace and harmony after his coming 2000 years ago? (and this your convoluted way of asking it?)

I don’t think the topic of this thread is why Jesus did not bring peace 2000 years ago, but I will try to answer anyway.

Judaism actually has two Messiahs - Mashiach Ben Yoseph and Mashiach Ben David. The second Messiah is the one who is yet to come and who will being peace and harmony, the first one(Mashiach Ben Yoseph) was Jesus (in my opinion).

Bahaullah does not count in any of this - he never was and never will be the Messiah. He is just a religious leader of about ten million people and will never be more than that.

 

[Servant19]

What are you talking about? Who denied the existence of Anis?!

You said Anis was left **hanging ** and unscathed, and that is a story you made up. Yes I Googled again and here:
“The lifeless body of the disciple, indeed, riddled with bullets, swung to and fro in the air, but of the Báb no trace nor sign was visible” (Religious Systems of the World, EG Browne)

Now instead of dodging my request: I repeat again: YOU SAID BAHA’U’LLAH HAD MIRACLES, show me those miracles.

From Wikipedia:

Mírzá Mihdí Khán Zaímu’d-Dawlih was the son of a Shi’ite cleric who was present at the execution of the Báb and who took his son to the barracks square to review the events he witnessed. Zaímu’d-Dawlih recounted his father’s version in a book, Miftáh-i-Bábu’l-Abváb ya Taríkh-i-Báb va Bahá (Key to the Gate of Gates, or the History of the Báb and Bahá), published about A.H. 1310 (about 1896).** The work is a polemically anti-Bahá’í book**. But the account of the execution (which is lengthy) includes the following details:[10]

1. The Báb and Anís were suspended about three meters above the ground on a rope and fired on by a Christian regiment.
2. The bullets cut the rope and one bullet wounded Anís.
3. The Báb ran into one of the rooms in the barracks.
4. The Báb was brought back out and he and Anís were shot again, this time fatally.

This is from a Muslim cleric.

Let’s just say Baha’u’llah did no miracles, put your searching heart to rest.

Can you show me one miracle of Jesus or Muhammad that was attested to be true by a Jew (in Jesus’ case) and by a Christian (in Muhammad’s case)

Thankyou

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[Servant19]

I don’t what you are talking about - I said there will be peace and security after the current period of seven years ( the Day of Judgment) - isn’t that what the Mosaic Scripture says? So what is the contradiction?

Maybe your question is, that iif Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, why was there no peace and harmony after his coming 2000 years ago? (and this your convoluted way of asking it?)

I don’t think the topic of this thread is why Jesus did not bring peace 2000 years ago, but I will try to answer anyway.

Judaism actually has two Messiahs - Mashiach Ben Yoseph and Mashiach Ben David. The second Messiah is the one who is yet to come and who will being peace and harmony, the first one(Mashiach Ben Yoseph) was Jesus (in my opinion).

Bahaullah does not count in any of this - he never was and never will be the Messiah. He is just a religious leader of about ten million people and will never be more than that.

Sorry for my confusion

I am now confused by your posts openmind.

A few posts ago you were saying that Jesus was the Savior, Krishna was a Savior.

Can you answer why these Saviours basically did nothing a Savior is supposed to do by your definitions?

Thankyou

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[peace_at_last]

I don’t what you are talking about - I said there will be peace and security after the current period of seven years ( the Day of Judgment) - isn’t that what the Mosaic Scripture says? So what is the contradiction?

Maybe your question is, that iif Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, why was there no peace and harmony after his coming 2000 years ago? (and this your convoluted way of asking it?)

I don’t think the topic of this thread is why Jesus did not bring peace 2000 years ago, but I will try to answer anyway.

Judaism actually has two Messiahs - Mashiach Ben Yoseph and Mashiach Ben David. The second Messiah is the one who is yet to come and who will being peace and harmony, the first one(Mashiach Ben Yoseph) was Jesus (in my opinion).

Bahaullah does not count in any of this - he never was and never will be the Messiah. He is just a religious leader of about ten million people and will never be more than that.

Thanks for the explanation.
I didn’t know the Jews had two Messiahs (apparently even more). I Googled Mashiach Ben David and what has been said about it resembles the Prophecies about the Mahdi in Shia Islam, which the Baha’is claim was the Bab, while in fact he was rejected by Shia Muslims because he had no resemblance or similarity to the Mahdi, and he brought no peace with him.

Thanks again

 

[openmind77]

Sorry for my confusion

I am now confused by your posts openmind.

A few posts ago you were saying that Jesus was the Savior, Krishna was a Savior.

Can you answer why these Saviours basically did nothing a Savior is supposed to do by your definitions?

Thankyou

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A Savior is supposed to established righteousness, but he can not banish all evil from the Earth unless humanity is ready for it - this is because of human freewill which can not be violated even by a Divine Incarnation. Krishna and Jesus did not do ‘nothing’ (what a stupid thing to say). They succeeded in teaching spirituality to tens of millions - over a billion humans.

This time however, it is hoped that humanity is ready for it (not every human, but the population as a whole) and it has been predicted by Jesus (in Mathew 25) and in Mosaic scripture (as you pointed out) that will indeed happen.

There have been many, many Saviors in the past, but this coming Savior will be successful for the first time, in banishing ‘goats’ because it is the right time and humanity is ready - this has been prophesied.

Bahaullah is not a Savior, he did not succeed in anything except leading about 8-10 million people (which is not a small or bad thing). But that is all he will ever accomplish. .

 

[peace_at_last]

From Wikipedia:

This is from a Muslim cleric.

Let’s just say Baha’u’llah did no miracles, put your searching heart to rest.

Can you show me one miracle of Jesus or Muhammad that was attested to be true by a Jew (in Jesus’ case) and by a Christian (in Muhammad’s case)

Thankyou

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You said the Anis person was unscathed and still hanging, while in the work you present it is stated that they were both hung by one rope, the bullets cut the rope (so Anis is on the ground now not on three meters above where the soldiers are shooting at), and Anis was wounded:

1. The Báb and Anís were suspended about three meters above the ground on a rope and fired on by a Christian regiment.
2. The bullets cut the rope and one bullet wounded Anís.

This goes against your own claims and is in no manner miraculous.

Thank you for admitting that Baha’u’llah had no miracles. You could have said that from the first post and saved us all the trouble.

 

[meltzerboy]

I don’t what you are talking about - I said there will be peace and security after the current period of seven years ( the Day of Judgment) - isn’t that what the Mosaic Scripture says? So what is the contradiction?

Maybe your question is, that iif Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, why was there no peace and harmony after his coming 2000 years ago? (and this your convoluted way of asking it?)

I don’t think the topic of this thread is why Jesus did not bring peace 2000 years ago, but I will try to answer anyway.

Judaism actually has two Messiahs - Mashiach Ben Yoseph and Mashiach Ben David. The second Messiah is the one who is yet to come and who will being peace and harmony, the first one(Mashiach Ben Yoseph) was Jesus (in my opinion).

Bahaullah does not count in any of this - he never was and never will be the Messiah. He is just a religious leader of about ten million people and will never be more than that.

The two-Messiah hypothesis is an extremely minor viewpoint in Judaism. (Jews have all sorts of diverse notions on a host of issues.) For the most part, Judaism believes in only one Messiah.

 

[SteveVH]

Let us therefore judge Baha’u’llah on His own merits

Absolutely. I have no problem at all judging Baha’u’llah on his own merits.

THEN, once that has been ascertained we can simply accept His Word as true

LOL. Kind of the opposite of “We’ll give him a fair trial and then hang him”. In your case we’ll give him a fair trial then believe everything he said is true.

Christianity is no different, there is no Law, it is the Law of death

Excuse me? Christianity is the law of death? You really must explain.

the “no need to be circumcised” fallacy

Circumcision was a sign of the covenant with Abraham. Baptism is a sign of the new and everlasting covenant in Jesus. In any case, what do you care? Is it a requirement that Baha’i men be circumcised or are you just borrowing from the Jews because you have no argument of your own?

the changing of divorce law

He didn’t “change” anything. As Jesus said “it was not so from the beginning”. Moses had allowed divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. Jesus simply returned to the way it was in the beginning; the way God intended it. One man and one woman becoming one flesh and what God has joined together no man must separate. Or do you think that divorce is a good thing and should be permitted? Not sure I understand your position.

lets not forget the Sabbath

Jesus is Lord, even of the Sabbath.

that the Messiah was not a world redeemer (He will sort that out when He comes back),

He died once, for all. How is that not a world Redeemer? And please remember to Whom your snide comments are directed. Your true feelings concerning Jesus are beginning to show.

did not rule with a sword, we could go on and on.

Well, Jesus said I do not bring peace but a sword.

*34“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn  ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

37“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.* (Matthew 10:34-39)

The Founders of all the worlds religions have no legs to stand on by the standards you propose.

Not when then stand next to Christ, you are correct. He is God’s only Word and God has no other.

All that one can do is ask for justice and fairness of judgement.

I have no problem with that.

To you Jesus can do no wrong

Well, yes, that is the Christian position, since we believe that Jesus was God incarnate and God can do no wrong. Why don’t you please inform us of what Jesus did that was wrong?

and everything that Baha’u’llah has stated is a heresy.

No. I do not believe that Baha’u’llah was a heretic. In order to be a heretic one would first have to accept the Catholic faith and then propose an erroneous doctrine. Baha’u’llah is certainly no heretic. He has proposed something so completely different that it is unrecognizable as having anything to do with Christianity, much less Catholicism. I’m not sure why you feel any need to even bring Christ into your religion. The only thing that the Baha’i faith has in common with Christianity resides in your imagination.

Is that fairness?

You mean to judge him by what has been presented to us; compare it to what Christ taught us, and then to find his ideas wanting? Yes, I think it is fair.

 

[SteveVH]

So where was the righteousness that Krishna restored?

Where was the righteousness that Jesus restored? (I recall you calling Jesus a Saviour/Avatar previously)

Where is the Judgment of these Saviours?
Who were the “goats” of Jesus time? Were the Pharisees not “goats”? Why did they survive? Were the Caesar’s not goats? Why did they survive?
I can point to “goats” (thousands of them) that lived every day since the Saviour, Jesus, came to earth up to this very day. Why were ONLY the sheep not remaining?

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With all due respect to openmind77, why are you questioning a Hindu about Christianity?

 

[openmind77]

So where was the righteousness that Krishna restored?

Where was the righteousness that Jesus restored? (I recall you calling Jesus a Saviour/Avatar previously)

Where is the Judgment of these Saviours?
Who were the “goats” of Jesus time? Were the Pharisees not “goats”? Why did they survive? Were the Caesar’s not goats? Why did they survive?
I can point to “goats” (thousands of them) that lived every day since the Saviour, Jesus, came to earth up to this very day. Why were ONLY the sheep not remaining?

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Sorry, I think I missed this post, but I believe I answered it subsequently.

 

[SteveVH]

Please don’t get so hot and bothered Steve… [You] get yourself angered to the point of sometimes needing to apologize. (as in the other thread where you claimed Baha’is make it up as they go along)

Yes, Servant. When I think I have posted something that may be less than charitable I tend to apologize. It doesn’t surprise me that you consider this somehow a flaw in my character. Maybe you should try it sometime.

 

[Servant19]

Yes, Servant. When I think I have posted something that may be less than charitable I tend to apologize. It doesn’t surprise me that you consider this somehow a flaw in my character. Maybe you should try it sometime.

Always happy to apologize Steve. In fact I do it a lot. I did it to Paul Dupre on this thread, especially when I unintentionally misrepresent someones thoughts and words. I think you are correct however, maybe I should apologize more. Maybe the whole Baha’i Faith should apologize for how it positions itself with its Revelation. Maybe anyone who shares thoughts that do not align with Catholic thinking and teaching should apologize too.

I believe that this is all we are doing here. After all, this is the non-Catholic religions forum isn’t it? If its the “Catholic thoughts only please” forum, then I sincerely do apologize

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[Servant19]

You said the Anis person was unscathed and still hanging, while in the work you present it is stated that they were both hung by one rope, the bullets cut the rope (so Anis is on the ground now not on three meters above where the soldiers are shooting at), and Anis was wounded:

1. The Báb and Anís were suspended about three meters above the ground on a rope and fired on by a Christian regiment.
2. The bullets cut the rope and one bullet wounded Anís.

This goes against your own claims and is in no manner miraculous.

Thank you for admitting that Baha’u’llah had no miracles. You could have said that from the first post and saved us all the trouble.

This is why you are fascinating to me dear friend

I apologize, this Muslim cleric found one bullet wound out of 700+ had hit Anis, and zero bullets out of 700+ had hit the Bab.

Honestly, do you believe this to be a coincidence?

Tell me also honestly, can you claim that there is verifiable evidence for the miracles performed by Jesus and Muhammad? Yes, I know the evidence is there in the Gospel and some Hadiths, but you seem to discount the Baha’i equivalent of these books which is Nabil’s Narrative. Why do you do this?

Do you feel you are being fair?
How would a court of law see your judgements here?

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[peace_at_last]

This is why you are fascinating to me dear friend

I apologize, this Muslim cleric found one bullet wound out of 700+ had hit Anis, and zero bullets out of 700+ had hit the Bab.

Honestly, do you believe this to be a coincidence?

Tell me also honestly, can you claim that there is verifiable evidence for the miracles performed by Jesus and Muhammad? Yes, I know the evidence is there in the Gospel and some Hadiths, but you seem to discount the Baha’i equivalent of these books which is Nabil’s Narrative. Why do you do this?

Do you feel you are being fair?
How would a court of law see your judgements here?

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The Muslim cleric like many other sources all state that a bullet ripped the rope they were hanging to and they fell to the ground and from behind the smoke the soldiers were merely shooting 700 bullets at an empty wall. No one regarded this as a miracle. Funny thing is even Baha’i researchers state that the earlier accounts did not show the story as being as miraculous as the later Baha’i accounts started making it look like:

“Generally the later accounts (such as Dawnbreakers) give an increasingly miraculous and merged view of events in contrast to the less miraculous and discriminating nature of the earlier accounts. Anis goes from dying to surviving with the Bab, from being shot separately to being shot together, the firing squad portion of the regiment is presented as the whole regiment of 750 men, and a possibly much smaller first squad is made to be as large as the second squad. Generally, it’s a rule of thumb that when later accounts are more miraculous than earlier accounts, the earlier accounts are the more accurate ones, especially for such a public event as this.”
paintdrawer.co.uk/david/folders/Spirituality/001=Bahai/Martyrdom%20of%20the%20Bab%20-%20Notes%20on%20Firing%20Squad.htm

You are truly Fascinating. Neither the Bab nor Baha’u’llah show a single miracle and you try to make us believe a bullet breaking a rope and troops firing at an empty wall is a miracle.

This discussion is finished for me. Anyone who wants to see the truth can refer to the link I provided above which uses multiple Baha’i and non-Baha’i sources (English, Russian, French, Persian). All I asked was for was a miracle from Baha’u’llah that you claimed existed but you later retracted.

have fun

 

[Servant19]

A Savior is supposed to established righteousness, but he can not banish all evil from the Earth unless humanity is ready for it - this is because of human freewill which can not be violated even by a Divine Incarnation. Krishna and Jesus did not do ‘nothing’ (what a stupid thing to say). They succeeded in teaching spirituality to tens of millions - over a billion humans.

Yes of course dear friend. I didn’t say they didn’t do “anything”, I was simply saying that by your criteria of what a Saviour does, they didn’t achieve the outcome. Would you agree?

If they “succeeded in teaching spirituality to tens of millions - over a billion humans”, then I assume you would consider Muhammad a Saviour too?

Can you tell me please what is the difference between “establishing righteousness” and “banish all evil from the Earth”?

Thankyou

This time however, it is hoped that humanity is ready for it (not every human, but the population as a whole) and it has been predicted by Jesus (in Mathew 25) and in Mosaic scripture (as you pointed out) that will indeed happen.

Why would humanity need to be ready for it?
A Saviour comes and Judges humanity (according to your scenario and understanding). What has that got to do with humanities readiness?

What do you see in the world today that indicates a readiness for a Judging Saviour?

There have been many, many Saviors in the past, but this coming Savior will be successful for the first time, in banishing ‘goats’ because it is the right time and humanity is ready - this has been prophesied.

“This time, its for real”…

The famous last words of ALL Jews who rejected Jesus.
The famous last words of ALL Christians and Muslims who rejected Baha’u’llah.

Bahaullah is not a Savior, he did not succeed in anything except leading about 8-10 million people (which is not a small or bad thing). But that is all he will ever accomplish. .

Can you provide rational reasoning as to why you think Baha’u’llah is less of a Saviour 180 years after His coming and He has 10 million followers, but Jesus was a greater Saviour 180 years after His coming and He only had 1.6 million followers?

I would also assume that you consider Muhammad the greatest Saviour of all time with His rapid growth of followers?

Either way, I would appreciate an analysis as to why numbers are so important given the short span of existence of the Baha’i Faith?

Thankyou.

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[Servant19]

The Muslim cleric like many other sources all state that a bullet ripped the rope they were hanging to and they fell to the ground and from behind the smoke the soldiers were merely shooting 700 bullets at an empty wall. No one regarded this as a miracle. Funny thing is even Baha’i researchers state that the earlier accounts did not show the story as being as miraculous as the later Baha’i accounts started making it look like:

“Generally the later accounts (such as Dawnbreakers) give an increasingly miraculous and merged view of events in contrast to the less miraculous and discriminating nature of the earlier accounts. Anis goes from dying to surviving with the Bab, from being shot separately to being shot together, the firing squad portion of the regiment is presented as the whole regiment of 750 men, and a possibly much smaller first squad is made to be as large as the second squad. Generally, it’s a rule of thumb that when later accounts are more miraculous than earlier accounts, the earlier accounts are the more accurate ones, especially for such a public event as this.”
paintdrawer.co.uk/david/folders/Spirituality/001=Bahai/Martyrdom%20of%20the%20Bab%20-%20Notes%20on%20Firing%20Squad.htm

You are truly Fascinating. Neither the Bab nor Baha’u’llah show a single miracle and you try to make us believe a bullet breaking a rope and troops firing at an empty wall is a miracle.

This discussion is finished for me. Anyone who wants to see the truth can refer to the link I provided above which uses multiple Baha’i and non-Baha’i sources (English, Russian, French, Persian). All I asked was for was a miracle from Baha’u’llah that you claimed existed but you later retracted.

have fun

Yes I see you provided no evidence of Islamic or Christian miracles either…



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[peace_at_last]

Yes I see you provided no evidence of Islamic or Christian miracles either…



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Oh how sweet, a new game: Since Baha’u’llah didn’t have any miracles, let us dispute the miracles of all Prophets.

Have fun.

 

[Servant19]

Oh how sweet, a new game: Since Baha’u’llah didn’t have any miracles, let us dispute the miracles of all Prophets.

Have fun.

As a Muslim dear friend, I was hoping you would appreciate the Word of God as the miracle in itself, but alas, I was mistaken.

Miracles have little importance in the Baha’i Faith. I assure you Baha’u’llah performed numerous miracles, but Baha’is are discouraged in emphasizing them as important to developing Faith.

Indeed, the incident relating to the martyrdom of the Bab may very well have been a coincidence. Baha’is are not superstitious, nor do we wish to belive that these incidences have an impact on our daily lives. They don’t.

The real miracle is that every single word uttered by Baha’u’llah’s sweet lips perform an unprecedented miracle on my soul.

THAT is the real miracle. But I guess for some this is too much to understand…

bahaiteachings.org/bahais-and-miracles

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[GuyNextDoor]

Not sure how any of these has anything to do with the topic in this thread.

 

[meltzerboy]

As a Muslim dear friend, I was hoping you would appreciate the Word of God as the miracle in itself, but alas, I was mistaken.

Miracles have little importance in the Baha’i Faith. I assure you Baha’u’llah performed numerous miracles, but Baha’is are discouraged in emphasizing them as important to developing Faith.

Indeed, the incident relating to the martyrdom of the Bab may very well have been a coincidence. Baha’is are not superstitious, nor do we wish to belive that these incidences have an impact on our daily lives. They don’t.

The real miracle is that every single word uttered by Baha’u’llah’s sweet lips perform an unprecedented miracle on my soul.

THAT is the real miracle. But I guess for some this is too much to understand…

bahaiteachings.org/bahais-and-miracles

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The reason why it is too much for some to understand is that, even though this is the Non-Catholic Religions part of the Forum, most of the posters are Catholic since this is CAF! You can’t really expect Catholics (or Muslims, or Jews) to agree with the tenets of your religion and thereby forfeit, at least to some extent, the tenets of their own.

BTW, it may seem paradoxical since there are numerous miracles described in the Hebrew Bible, but Judaism, similar to the Baha’i faith, is not based on miracles either.