End Times Speculation the alternate approach

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The downfall of the Papal states - Bahá’u’lláh’s Tablet to Pope Pius IX - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-5.html

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous… his is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: 'Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!”

This Tablet to Pope Pius IX is a majestic summons from Bahá’u’lláh to the head of Christendom to embrace the Cause of God. The failure of the Pope to respond to this Command is a significant event in Bahá’í history with dramatic results for the Pope individually as well as for the state of the Papacy as an institution.

Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
The downfall of the Papal states - Bahá’u’lláh’s Tablet to Pope Pius IX - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-5.html

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous… his is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: 'Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!”

This Tablet to Pope Pius IX is a majestic summons from Bahá’u’lláh to the head of Christendom to embrace the Cause of God. The failure of the Pope to respond to this Command is a significant event in Bahá’í history with dramatic results for the Pope individually as well as for the state of the Papacy as an institution.

Regards Tony
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Why can’t Bahá’u’lláh just talk clear and plain like God does in the Bible we don’t need all this flowery language.

Bahá’u’lláh can you please just get to the Point !!! :banghead:
 
Jesus was a jew. Jesus was the fulfillment of the jewish prophets and prophecies.

bahaullah was not a christian. there were no christian prophecies for bahaullah to fulfill.

there is no essential connection between bahaullah and christianity.

bahaullah takes it upon himself to claim he was sent by God. Jesus did not do this. Jesus used the jewish faith and prophets to justify His status in the world. bahaullah uses nothing but himself to do this.

if a person never encounters bahaullah or his teachings, what is that person’s fate?

if a person never encounters Jesus or His teachings, what is that person’s fate? that person is left to his own devices and dependent upon the words and teachings of men, not of God. that person is denied access to the divine mysteries that Jesus, and Jesus alone, revealed. that person does not have access to the forgiveness of sins and the breaking of the chains of slavery to sin that is possible only through Jesus and faith in His bodily Resurrection. that person does not even know of the eternal life that is given them through their personal relationship with Jesus Christ. that person does not receive the graces that are available only through the seven sacraments that Jesus instituted for us as definite sources of His life and life in the Father.

for a bahai, not having the fruits of Jesus and His self-sacrifice on the cross may mean little, but to lose eternal life and to lose being freed from sin is a big deal, the biggest deal imaginable; and it is possible only through acceptance of the Triune God and the Triune God’s Incarnated Son.
 
eddie_too said:
Jesus was rejected by the religious leaders of His faith for at least two known reasons. first, He had made Himself God. second, He was a threat to their worldly power.

since the time of Jesus, no christian prophets have prophesied that someone would come along to complete Jesus’ teachings.

Baha’u’llah, having never been a christian, could not be rejected by christianity in the same manner Jesus was rejected by the jewish authorities. in fact, Baha’u’llah is rejected by christians for the opposite reason, he never had a concrete or organic connection to christianity even though he claimed to replace Christ in God’s plan for mankind.
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I think that one of the principle reasons that the Jewish authorities went after Rabbi Yeshu was out of jealousy. Jewish itinerants often claimed to be the messiah, but attracted little attention from the Priests because they did not perform miracles and thereby draw the attention of the entire populace.
And rather than being seen a as threat to their power, I feel that Yeshu was more seen as an insulter and as being disrespectful to those in authority.

As for no other teachers of religion ever coming along, we have our own Saints (such as St.Francis of Assisi) as well as Mohammed being sent to the descendents of Ishmael.
“Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown on the fire. I repeat, you will be able to tell them by their fruits.”
Both Islam and Baha’i Faith continue to grow. Our Creator would not allow that if those religions had no value to Him.

Finally, I might observe that not all Christians reject Baha’u’llah. Many have joined the Baha’i Faith. Others offer their verbal support.
Baha’u’llah reformed the Islamic teaching that the Gospels had been altered and affirmed their validity as written.
 
Baha’u’llahs Tablet to Queen Victoria, bahai-library.com/bahaullah_lawh_malikih

It is said that Queen Victoria, upon reading the Tablet revealed for her by Baha’u’llah, remarked: “If this is of God, it will endure; if not, it can do no harm.”

O ye rulers of the earth! Wherefore have ye clouded the radiance of the Sun, and caused it to cease from shining? Hearken unto the counsel given you by the Pen of the Most High, that haply both ye and the poor may attain unto tranquillity and peace. We beseech God to assist the kings of the earth to establish peace on earth. He, verily, doth what He willeth.
Code: 
  O kings of the earth! We see you increasing every year your expenditures, and laying the burden thereof on your subjects. This, verily, is wholly and grossly unjust. Fear the sighs and tears of this wronged One, and lay not excessive burdens on your peoples. Do not rob them to rear palaces for yourselves; nay rather choose for them that which ye choose for yourselves. Thus We unfold to your eyes (GWB p. 254) that which profiteth you, if ye but perceive. Your people are your treasures. Beware lest your rule violate the commandments of God, and ye deliver your wards to the hands of the robber. By them ye rule, by their means ye subsist, by their aid ye conquer. Yet, how disdainfully ye look upon them! How strange, how very strange!

  Now that ye have refused the Most Great Peace, hold ye fast unto this, the Lesser Peace, that haply ye may in some degree better your own condition and that of your dependents.

  O rulers of the earth! Be reconciled among yourselves, that ye may need no more armaments save in a measure to safeguard your territories and dominions. Beware lest ye disregard the counsel of the All-Knowing, the Faithful.
Regards Tony
 
eddie_too said:
Jesus was a jew. Jesus was the fulfillment of the jewish prophets and prophecies.

bahaullah was not a christian. there were no christian prophecies for bahaullah to fulfill.

there is no essential connection between bahaullah and christianity.

bahaullah takes it upon himself to claim he was sent by God. Jesus did not do this. Jesus used the jewish faith and prophets to justify His status in the world. bahaullah uses nothing but himself to do this.

if a person never encounters bahaullah or his teachings, what is that person’s fate?

if a person never encounters Jesus or His teachings, what is that person’s fate? that person is left to his own devices and dependent upon the words and teachings of men, not of God. that person is denied access to the divine mysteries that Jesus, and Jesus alone, revealed. that person does not have access to the forgiveness of sins and the breaking of the chains of slavery to sin that is possible only through Jesus and faith in His bodily Resurrection. that person does not even know of the eternal life that is given them through their personal relationship with Jesus Christ. that person does not receive the graces that are available only through the seven sacraments that Jesus instituted for us as definite sources of His life and life in the Father.

for a bahai, not having the fruits of Jesus and His self-sacrifice on the cross may mean little, but to lose eternal life and to lose being freed from sin is a big deal, the biggest deal imaginable; and it is possible only through acceptance of the Triune God and the Triune God’s Incarnated Son.
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God doesn’t have to send anyone to us. If you look at the world today after 1,400 years of Islam and 2,000 years of Christianity where are we? On the brink of a nuclear catastrophe.

So why wouldn’t God have sent Baha’u’llah (by coincidence?)with a Divine World Order? Why, just when world communications and technology have made of us one village did Baha’u’llah ‘just happen’ to come along with teachings for world unity and the oneness of humanity? Why, when religions are at each other’s throats does Baha’u’llah, ‘just happen’ to come along beforehand and bring teachings for the unity of religions?? Why, just not long before the atomic bomb is discovered does Baha’u’llah ‘happen to come along’ with the teaching that religion and science must go hand in hand?? Why, when multi-cultural societies are being born does Baha’u’llah ‘just happen’ to teach about a world language??

So Baha’u’llah was just in the right place at the right time with the right ideas and teachings for an age that hadn’t been born yet!!! In other words He knew 100 years in advance exactly what we’d need now.

Now one other question. Can you or anyone imagine any higher teachings or concepts or ideas or thought than the oneness of all humanity and the establishment of a world spiritual civilisation for today’s society? Baha’u’llah seemed to have His Finger on the pulse of humanity.

And Kings He rebuked their kingdoms fell and disappeared. The Roman Empire persecuted Christianity what happened? The Ottomon Empire persecuted Baha’is what happened. There’s still a lot that’s unwritten as its early days. But I think it’s a bit too far fetched to say Baha’u’llah isn’t from God.
 
worldcitizen said:
God doesn’t have to send anyone to us. If you look at the world today after 1,400 years of Islam and 2,000 years of Christianity where are we? On the brink of a nuclear catastrophe.

So why wouldn’t God have sent Baha’u’llah (by coincidence?)with a Divine World Order? Why, just when world communications and technology have made of us one village did Baha’u’llah ‘just happen’ to come along with teachings for world unity and the oneness of humanity? Why, when religions are at each other’s throats does Baha’u’llah, ‘just happen’ to come along beforehand and bring teachings for the unity of religions?? Why, just not long before the atomic bomb is discovered does Baha’u’llah ‘happen to come along’ with the teaching that religion and science must go hand in hand?? Why, when multi-cultural societies are being born does Baha’u’llah ‘just happen’ to teach about a world language??

So Baha’u’llah was just in the right place at the right time with the right ideas and teachings for an age that hadn’t been born yet!!! In other words He knew 100 years in advance exactly what we’d need now.

Now one other question. Can you or anyone imagine any higher teachings or concepts or ideas or thought than the oneness of all humanity and the establishment of a world spiritual civilisation for today’s society? Baha’u’llah seemed to have His Finger on the pulse of humanity.

And Kings He rebuked their kingdoms fell and disappeared. The Roman Empire persecuted Christianity what happened? The Ottomon Empire persecuted Baha’is what happened. There’s still a lot that’s unwritten as its early days. But I think it’s a bit too far fetched to say Baha’u’llah isn’t from God.
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Frightening anyone about nuclear war or predicting the end of the world is mocking God who is Merciful, abounding in Love and Compassion

People must work for Peace and that is to follow the Prince of Peace, Jesus our Lord and God. He alone intercedes to the Father. Only through Jesus is the Answer. Amen.

Galatians 6 : 1- 10

Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load. 6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.

7 **Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. **9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Frightening anyone about nuclear war or predicting the end of the world is mocking God who is Merciful, abounding in Love and Compassion

People must work for Peace and that is to follow the Prince of Peace, Jesus our Lord and God. He alone intercedes to the Father. Only through Jesus is the Answer. Amen.

Galatians 6 : 1- 10

Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load. 6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.

7 **Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. **9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

MJ
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Sorry if you misunderstood but no mocking was intended whatsoever only trying to emphasise that God doesn’t leave us shepherd less and has sent us Baha’u’llah.
 
jeffrey_erwin said:
I think that one of the principle reasons that the Jewish authorities went after Rabbi Yeshu was out of jealousy. Jewish itinerants often claimed to be the messiah, but attracted little attention from the Priests because they did not perform miracles and thereby draw the attention of the entire populace.
And rather than being seen a as threat to their power, I feel that Yeshu was more seen as an insulter and as being disrespectful to those in authority.

As for no other teachers of religion ever coming along, we have our own Saints (such as St.Francis of Assisi) as well as Mohammed being sent to the descendents of Ishmael.
“Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown on the fire. I repeat, you will be able to tell them by their fruits.”
Both Islam and Baha’i Faith continue to grow. Our Creator would not allow that if those religions had no value to Him.

Finally, I might observe that not all Christians reject Baha’u’llah. Many have joined the Baha’i Faith. Others offer their verbal support.
Baha’u’llah reformed the Islamic teaching that the Gospels had been altered and affirmed their validity as written.
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I agree that the Jewish authorities were jealous of Jesus and felt that He was becoming too popular. Although some people don’t like it I say that Muhammad was one of the greatest teachers Christianity ever had because one cannot become a Muslim without accepting Jesus and so we have another 1.6 billion people in the world who accept Jesus that might not have and the same with Baha’is. If you don’t accept Jesus you can’t become a Baha’i so add a few more million to that.

Just because Muslims see Jesus as a Prophet is no problem because there’s heaps of verses where Jesus refers to Himself or others refer to Him as a Prophet. At least maybe we’ve come half way in Christians eyes.
 
MartinJordan said:
Frightening anyone about nuclear war or predicting the end of the world is mocking God who is Merciful, abounding in Love and Compassion

People must work for Peace and that is to follow the Prince of Peace, Jesus our Lord and God. He alone intercedes to the Father. Only through Jesus is the Answer. Amen.

Galatians 6 : 1- 10

Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load. 6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.

7 **Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. **9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

MJ
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Come on dear Martin, I think you focussed on the least important part of WCs post, don’t you think?

🙂

.
 
jeffrey_erwin said:
WW III in our Holy Scripture:

“The nations have sunk into a pit of their own making. . .”.----Psalm 9:15

“Go into the hollows of the rocks,
into the caverns of the earth. . . .” ------------------------.Isaiah 2:19

“For by fire will YHWH execute judgment…
The victims of YHWH will be many.” ----------------------- Isaiah 66:16

“For YHWH is indicting the nations,…
See! The disaster spreads
from nation to nation. . . .” ----------------------------- Jeremiah 25:31-32

“Those slaughtered by YHWH that day will be scattered across the world from end to end. . . .They will stay lying on the surface like dung.” – Jeremiah 25:33

“I have come to bring a fire to the earth, and how I wish it were blazing already!”-- Luke 12:48

Now in the 21st century, nations have the destructive power necessary to cause the above predicted disaster.
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I notice that MJ has said that one should not attempt to scare people about the advent of WW III. But it’s not me, MJ. WW III is predicted in our Bible.
 
jeffrey_erwin said:
Fr. Wion’s Prophecy of the Popes predicts that there will be one more Pope after Francis, and that pope will be “Peter of Rome.”
Not many understand this idea; you will not find it in any book, old or new.

Fr. Wion’s list of papal mottos contains 113 paragraphs, each one a separate motto for a single pope.
The first 111 of these consist of just one line. Number 112 has two lines, and number 113 has eight lines.
From LIGNUM VITAE, Wion, 1595, the last seven mottos as published (with a line_ inserted to enable paragraph indentations.)
Beginning with number 107 for Pope John XXIII:

Pastor & nauta.
Flos florum.
De medietate lunae.
De labore solis.
Gloria olivae.
In psecutione. extre-
_ma S.R.E. sedebit.
Petrus Romanus, qui
_pascet oves in mul-
_tis tribulationibus:
_quibus transactis ci-
_vitas septicollis di-
_ruetur, & Judex tre
_medus judicabit po
_pulum suum. Finis.

Unfortunately for the understanding of this prophecy, the very first commentator, Fr. Thomas Messingham, took it upon himself to alter Fr. Wion’s paragraph structure.
From FLORILEGIUM INSULAE SANCTORUM, Messingham, 1624:

Pastor & Nauta.
Flos florum.
De medietate lunae.
De labore solis.
Gloria Olivae.
__In persecutione extre-
ma S.R.E. sedebit Petrus
Romanus qui pascet oves
in multis tribulationibus:
quibus transactis civitas
septicollis diruetur,& ju-
dex tremed* judicabit po-
pulum suum. FINIS.

Notice how Fr. Messingham has combined the last two paragraphs into a single eight line paragraph thereby shortening Fr. Wion’s list by one to just 112 mottos.
This alteration may not have been of much import back in 1624, but now that we are at motto number 112 on the list, it makes all the difference.
By Messingham’s altered structure, Pope Francis would have to be the last Pope, Peter of Rome.
But by Fr. Wion’s original publication, Pope Francis is not “Petrus Romanus” who is still to come.

Fr. Wion’s prophecy has been much derided and dismissed of late since it is obvious that our beloved Francis is not “Peter of Rome.”
Tim Staples of Catholic Answers goes so far as to label it “tomfoolery.” But it should be noted that the Popes themselves have talked about it in a positive way.
Pope Pius XII went so far as to name his biographical film “Pastor Angelicus.”
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As for “predicting the end of the world,” the timeline for the disaster foretold in Bible prophecy is given by the above quoted “Prophecy of the Popes.”
The translation of motto number 112 for Pope Francis (see below) is ominous but motto number 113 for the next and last Pope is truly apocalyptic:

“Peter of Rome, who will pasture his sheep in many tribulations: when these things are finished the city of the seven hills will be destroyed,
and the terrible Judge will judge His people. The End.”

According to Fr. Wion’s prophecy, the End of the World will happen sometime in the 21st century.
 
MartinJordan said:
Frightening anyone about nuclear war or predicting the end of the world is mocking God who is Merciful, abounding in Love and Compassion

People must work for Peace and that is to follow the Prince of Peace, Jesus our Lord and God. He alone intercedes to the Father. Only through Jesus is the Answer. Amen.
…
MJ
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I totally agree with this. God is Merciful and Loving. There is absolutely no way he is going to allow wide spread destruction or ‘end of the world’. Jesus never said or even implied something like this. The prophecies in the OT were all related to the destruction of Jerusalem. The ‘Prophecies of Popes’ are not authenticated and anyway are related only to the Church not some kind of world wide holocaust.

The Return of the Christ at the End of the Age (not the end of the world) is an event to be looked forward to with joy and anticipation not with dread. It will be a wonderful new world when he Returns. Only those who have ignored Matthew 25:35-40 need to be worried about Judgment.

The only wrinkle in this is that there will two Returns - the Return of the muslim Mahdi and the Return of Jesus. How Christians handle the Return of a muslim messenger of God will be very critical - I would suggest all Christians take their lead regarding this from the Pope - he will definitely know who is a real Messenger of God and who is not.
 
openmind77 said:
The ‘Prophecies of Popes’ are not authenticated and anyway are related only to the Church not some kind of world wide holocaust.
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The motto of the Prophecy of the Popes for Benedict XV is:
“Religio depopulata.”

In 1880 Fr. M.J. O’Brien wrote: “Troubled times are foretold by this. The blood of the martyrs shall flow.”
Pope Benedict XV reigned from 1914 to 1921, the very years of the bloodiest war up until that time.

The final lines of motto number 113 for the next and final Pope would seem to indicate that they apply to more than just the Church:

“…the city of the seven hills will be destroyed, & the terrible Judge will judge his people. The End.”
 
people who do not accept the authority of the magisterium Jesus created and left behind, do not accept Jesus. they might accept some of His teachings, but if they reject His authority they hardly can be said to love or accept Jesus.

it was Jesus who said, if you love Me, you will keep my commandments.

one of the easier things in the world is to mouth meaningful words with no intention of acting upon them. Jesus taught us this.

Jesus, two thousand years ago introduced the concept of unity for all mankind. Jesus not only taught this doctrine, He gave us the means for this doctrine to become real, more than a concept.

bahaullah claiming this teaching as his own is standard operating procedure for bahaullah if his followers are to be believed. they use Jesus’ words all of the time to validate their belief system. however, they change the meanings of Jesus’ words from what the meanings given us by the Twelve Jesus personally chose and taught to exercise His authority after His Ascension in to heaven.

defy the authority of Jesus’ chosen magisterium and you do not have the fullness of the faith Jesus taught.
 
when it comes to speaking about the timing of the end of the world, i prefer to rely on Jesus, Who said, only the Father knows the time.

the rest of the yahoos out there preaching about this century being the end time are no more authoritative than any of the previous hundreds or thousands of people who have done the same thing over the past 1950 years.

no one knows.
 
eddie_too said:
when it comes to speaking about the timing of the end of the world, i prefer to rely on Jesus, Who said, only the Father knows the time.

the rest of the yahoos out there preaching about this century being the end time are no more authoritative than any of the previous hundreds or thousands of people who have done the same thing over the past 1950 years.

no one knows.
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This is now not correct.

The End of Times was the Evening of May 23rd of 1844

It is all unfolding as Written. The Limbs of Mankind have Quacked.

Regards Tony
 
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