Engaged sex - Questions about becoming chaste again

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Princess18 said:
I had really hoped that responses would focus on my question, how I, the Catholic, feel more sinful in changing our relationship without his understanding than I would committing the sin itself,
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Ok, you’re gotten alot of info from others about this, but I’d like to chime in too, if you don’t mind. 🙂
I think I understand what you’re saying. Up to now, intimacy has been a normal part of your relationship, and you “feel” married, you “act” married, you even “look” married, probably, to your friends. All the outward signs are there. BUT since your “eyes have been opened” (as I think you put it) you have begun to realize that these outward signs do not reflect an “inward” (in your soul) reality. YOU see/understand the discrepancy, but your DF, bless his heart, doesn’t yet. And the funny thing about feelings is that they very often do not reflect inward (in your soul) reality, either. You know in your heart and soul that you must not engage in sex right now, but your feelings in “rejecting” your DH and seeing him hurt are so overwhelming that they’re making you “feel” like that rejection is the greater sin. This is not the reality, as I think you know. but I do know how very very hard it is to go against what you’re feeling, esp. when that’s been your M.O. in life up to now, in order to follow a truth that is new to you.:console: I have heard a lot from many different places about how doing the right thing will lead to feeling peaceful, but I have found this very misleading in my life, as very often doing the right thing often feels very awful. KWIM?
Am I close? :o

Also, although this may be redundant for you if you already know, but the definition of a sacrament is this: “A sacrament is an *outward *sign instituted by Christ to give grace (which is the *inward *reality)”. Premarital sex is partaking in the outward sign, but without the inward sacramental grace. While martial intimacy is truly, sacramentally, and on every level, unifying, premarital intimacy is a lie, therefore a sin, therefore no matter what it “feels” like, disunifying (is that a word??:)). Maybe you already know this, but just in case, this is WHY you must be firm with your DF, and pray that in time he will come to understand as well. It truly is the most loving thing you can do for him. I’m sure you’ve heard before that love isn’t always manifest in feelings.

The best things that i can think of:
1: PRAY, for yourself, and for your DF, and let him know you’re praying for him. Bring the whole thing to God, as He is the only one who can really affect any change in your situation. I don’t know what kind of a relationship you have with the Blessed Mother, but consider consecrating your relationship to her, so that she might bring it to her Son for you. My DH and I did this early on in our relationship, and even though we strayed very far 😦 before we got married, it was with her help that we found our way back to the Heart of Jesus together. Jesus allows Our Lady to have tremendous power in helping souls stay pure and close to her Son.
2: Have another heart to heart with your DF. Tell him that you didn’t realize that even the little bit of intimacy you were going to allow was going to be so hard for you to do, and that it’s really going against what you know is wrong for both of you. Ask that he can try to be supportive, even if only for love of you. Be very humble and sorrowful (as I’m sure you are) for causing him hurt by going against the original agreement… but be firm in your purpose. Continue to do anything and everything you can think of (that is not sex;) )to demonstrate your love of him.
3: Be joyful!!! very soon, you will both become one in REALITY as well as in feeling!!! And that will be more wonderful than you can imagine! I think that joy coming from you can’t help but spread to your DF!

YIKES! Sorry this is so long.:o
 
agapewolf said:
Originally Posted by agapewolf
*The Husband is the spiritual head of the household…yet since he is not Catholic, you will have to fill that role. God did not design women that way. Although some wives might be successful at it, its a hard hard road. …kids “take” to their faith when their faithers teach them. *

Princess:
This response is unbelievably offensive.

whoa…how in the world is stating that the husband is spiritual head of the household offensive? This is scriptural. This is God’s design. I didnt’ make it up. READ THEOLOGY OF THE BODY!!!
This is also fact that kids do not take to their faith nearly as well when they only get it from their mothers. They DO however have a way better chance when they learn the faith and practice from their fathers. This is also fact. Don’t blame the messenger.

Look, This is the same warnings we give to couples in marriage prep at my parish and many in our diocese. These are all very very serious issues. I am not ashamed of myself. You’ve got some very very serious things to think about.

By the way, this is not judgement. This is truth. Stating what is moral and faith based truth is not judgement. Judgement is saying someone is going to hell. I’ve not condemned anyone here.

We are however, talking about eternal life, and the purpose of marriage and getting to heaven. I didn’t say anything offense. Read it again. It is merely non-emotional facts about the purpose of marriage and questions to ask yourself. I’m sorry if it stings a bit, but you’ve got to consider all these things. I told you…don’t answer them to me. Why would you not want thurough marriage preparation, examing every single issue you might ever have to deal with? Why would you want to be willfully ignorant of these things?
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I never wanted to believe the statement about the man as the spiritual head, and I have found truth in that, personally. There are stats on that also…if you do some research. I am very strong in the family with our faith, but our kids tend to ‘mirror’ what their dad does when it comes to the faith, and my husband has done an about face with some of the teachings (positively speaking) and it has caused our son in particular to ‘believe’ in certain things more, if that makes sense. I always thought it was a sexist comment–HA–But, it’s really not, when you break down the roles we have in our family. Can everyone in a company, be the CEO? No…same with our families…there needs to be a ‘head’ although my husband and I are one, he is the ‘head’ spiritually.🙂
 
Princess,

Your attitude here is just as bad as what you are accusing the people “judging”. That is an outrageous claim and very offsensive.

Judgement is saying that someone is going to hell. No one has said anything close to that here. As I stated before, I’m giving thoughts based on REALITY…of what has been shared with me…all of the pain involved in mixed marriage. I didn’t make it up.

These are strong warnings to take into consideration…thats all. Don’t enter your marriage ignorant of all the possible problems you might face.
 
Princess18 said:
Do you give that advice to all engaged women? Never mind, don’t answer that.

This response is unbelievably offensive. Comments such as this actually scare people away from the faith, not enlighten them.

Not everyone was “blessed” to have been born to a Catholic family. Shouldn’t you be questioning MY morals, MY likelihood to cheat, or how I will screw up our kids instead of him? He is not the one standing here in front of you, I am. He is more “Catholic” in his behavior than I am, BY FAR. We are at equal points of lapsed religion, me more than him, because I ought to know better, right? I could list 50 Christ-like Protestants I know for every ONE good Catholic I encounter, and about 100 morally lax, apathetic, self-proclaimed Catholics for the same exchange. Given them as my choice, I pick him every day and ten times on Sunday.

You are WAY out of line. Your judgemental attitude sucks all the air out of the room. You should be ASHAMED of yourself.
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I agree. Agapewolf, please leave her alone, as I’m offended, and you’re not even being rude to me or my family…
 
Check out the talk by Christopher West “Marriage and the Eucharist”…it is available from the Mary Foundation. Explains well the one flesh union. Have a great day.
 
I still stand by the fact that I haven’t stated anything offensive.

I stated facts. There is nothing offensive about saying that the Father is the spiritual head of the household. It is fact that children learn the faith and it takes better when they get it from dad. These are facts.
 
Princess18 said:
If there is a thread somewhere that discusses this same issue, I have not found it - I apologize if this is a duplication of any sort.

I was raised in the church but never really embraced it. I have always identified myself as still a Catholic, because although I had issues with many of the rules, I always agreed with the bigger picture. I felt it was important to be married by a priest and raise my children Catholic … just because I didn’t “take to it” was not reason enough to stay away completely. My fiance’ and I began our Pre Cana counseling with the priest and attended Engaged Encounter this past weekend. He is not Catholic; he was raised Southern Baptist but he didnt’ “take to it” either. He is very open to learning about the church and he’s not opposed to conversion if he decides later it’s right for him.

The EE weekend moved us in a way that neither of us expected. After this weekend I began to feel very strongly about us discontinuing our sexual relationship until after the wedding (nine and a half months from now). My reasoning is odd - I am not upset that we have had sex to this point but that to do so now that our “eyes are starting to open” would be wrong. Future Husband and I had a very long conversation about this … he understands it is important to me but really feels that cutting off our intimacy at this point would be damaging instead of beneficial. It is not the physical gratification he is worried about missing, it is the deep emotional connection involved in being completely open and vulnerable to another person, the life-giving selflessness of one partner sharing themself with the other … the connection of married intimacy. He maintains that the only reason we are not married in the church tomorrow is because we need time to plan and execute the big production surrounding the ceremony for our families, so why should our connection be punished in the meantime? I see his point.

We came to somewhat of a compromise; we agreed that six months prior to the wedding we would stop all sexual contact beyond kissing and snuggling. Since we live together, we would commit to ensuring we are modestly clothed in front of each other, and to avoid displaying any other behaviors the other would find arousing. We also agreed to learn more about NFP and stop using condoms after the wedding. I was satisfied with this, until last night when he asked me for sexual contact and I realized that I am still not comfortable with what is essentially three and a half months of sin. I turned him away and felt horrible, more horrible than I have ever felt in any sin I have ever committed. I was going back on my promise, when he, the non-Catholic, had agreed to something he was unsure and scared of, putting his trust me and a religion he does not yet know or understand. He was very hurt and confused … I have not ever hurt him like this before and I cannot stand the thought of doing so again.

My brain tells me that to have sex with him again before our vows is a sin, period. My heart tells me that I cannot withhold this from him over the next few months and go against my promise to him and the agreement we made. We have always made decisions together, and my gut tells me that to just overrule him and his feelings in favor of my fear is horribly horribly wrong.

Please, when you answer, keep in mind I know the rule. Simply retyping it for me does not help. An answer from a member of the clergy would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
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The one thing I’ll say though, Princess…not sure if you’ll read this…is your bf’s reaction to you wanting to halt having sex until marriage. He may be ‘hurt,’ but be very careful to not put your bf’s feelings above doing what is right…in YOUR eyes, and most importantly in God’s eyes. If you did not want advice…if you are not seeking change…you would not have posted your situation here. I’m sorry if you have been offended…I hope I didn’t, but I want you to know that we cannot put our spouses’ or future spouses’ feelings over what is holy in God’s eyes. You will spend a lifetime compromising on your values, if you start now…so, just be careful. There’s no need to start arguments with him, but if you bf truly loves you–he won’t ask you to compromise your values…for him.: :o And that’s a universal non religious truth.

I hope you choose to stay. Sometimes things get heated on these forums…but, it’s a great place to learn, and grow in your faith walk. God bless you.
 
Princess18 said:
You’re very right, our marriage must be built on His foundation. However, God has not been part of our equation before. This is not just “what your fiance’ needs to understand” situation - this is my transition as well.

I understand that as Catholics, we tend to jump quickly to protect other Catholics from potentially ill-meaning Protestants. Had I realized how much the respondents would focus on the possibility of my non-Catholic future husband cheating on me, how his non-belief may lure me away from the teachings of the church, or that many would pose questions of our suitability for each other then I would have left out that detail altogether. I had really hoped that responses would focus on my question, how I, the Catholic, feel more sinful in changing our relationship without his understanding than I would committing the sin itself, but it appears that his non-Catholicness tends to be a bigger issue for most.

I thank each of you for your responses.
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Princess,

Congratulations on the engagement and your awakening to your faith. Two things that rank at the top of my list of wonderful events of my life. There is a lot of “gloom and doom” discussion… Sorry if some are confusing you.

What is important is how YOU want to live YOUR marriage. I’m not saying that you, as a child of God and a Catholic can do what you please… no, no. But you have to come to an understanding of your faith…

What you are asking your future husband is not unreasonable. He just does not understand. And I think, neither do you, really and you are looking for something to say to him.

I can tell him from experience that many of us future husbands were asked the same thing and there are no known deaths or wrecked marriages from the experience. 😉 You can tell him, most of us are really not against him… just bear with us.

I will second the suggestion that you learn TOB. IMO Christopher West’s book “The Good News About Sex and Marriage” should be required reading of all engaged couples. There is much misinformation out there about the Catholic view of sex. This book dispells some myths and brings to an understanding the other aspects so many wrongly object to.

If you value your future, you two must understand and share AND AGREE TO what you believe on this (and other important matters of marriage - children, faith, money, etc.). I would have never accepted TOB just because it was “Catholic”… I was drawn to accept it because it MAKES SENSE. You don’t have to be Catholic to understand. You do need to believe in God and understand (and be willing to admit) selfishness.

Finally, I will suggest to your fiance that he should understand this for HIS benefit… He does not want to go through the experience of what happens when his wife builds up YEARS of guilt associated with having sex with him. This is in neither of your best interests if you understand what I mean?
 
I’m sorry–one more thing…ha!

I waited until I married…my husband was sexually active before meeting me. He did however, live chastely for a few years leading up to meeting me. So, it was somewhat ‘easier’ for us to remain chaste for marriage. I will leave you with this thought too…I always thought it was important to see how men felt about me without sex. Largely why I didn’t have sex prior to marriage. If a man was willing to wait for marriage…and protect my virginity for that special vocation–then he really loves me.

Just my thoughts – I had many bf’s leave me over my chastity stance, and it showed me they did not love me at all. (even though they said it) So…not saying to ever test this out, but it is a good measuring stick to see if the relationship really is about love…or if it partially about sex. Again–if a man leaves a woman or visa versa, because sex is taken out of the equation…then, there wasn’t enough love there to move into marriage.
 
Princess18 said "

This was a mistake. Posting here was a mistake. Expecting self-righteous pontificating Catholics to not demonize my amazing non-Catholic future husband was a huge huge mistake. How can I invite him to convert and join a group that judges everyone else? Isn’t that God’s job? This is why I left the church to begin with. Stupidly, I thought attitudes about our Christian siblings had changed in 16 years. Our priest saw that he was a good man and did not see the need to judge him, why would anyone else? Silly me. "

Stop worrying about what other Catholics or Christians think. It’s about YOUR relationship with God and only you can do penance. We are all sinners.

I understand why you came here but you are going to have to hear different perspectives from different people.
 
Sina said:
Princess18 said "

This was a mistake. Posting here was a mistake. Expecting self-righteous pontificating Catholics to not demonize my amazing non-Catholic future husband was a huge huge mistake. How can I invite him to convert and join a group that judges everyone else? Isn’t that God’s job? This is why I left the church to begin with. Stupidly, I thought attitudes about our Christian siblings had changed in 16 years. Our priest saw that he was a good man and did not see the need to judge him, why would anyone else? Silly me. "

Stop worrying about what other Catholics or Christians think. It’s about YOUR relationship with God and only you can do penance. We are all sinners.

I understand why you came here but you are going to have to hear different perspectives from different people.
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Not having sex before marriage really isn’t a perspective. But, I think that it went really awry in just a matter of minutes!:o
 
lizaanne said:
Very sad isn’t it. I hope she doesn’t go away. I feel a bit more charity would go a long way here.

~Liza
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Yes, unfortunately, even though the advice was good–it can fall on deaf eyes, if we are not careful with our tones. Many people have zeal for the faith–but it sometimes comes across a bit like condemnation, rather than advice. Messages boards and emails can be powerful weapons as they wound, if we ‘load’ them incorrectly.😦

Princess–I know you’ll be back–this board is too addicting for you not to be! hee hee:p I hope you do, anyways.:console:
 
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