Engaged sex - Questions about becoming chaste again

[CuriousInIL]

Yes, unfortunately, even though the advice was good–it can fall on deaf eyes, if we are not careful with our tones.

This may be my new favorite phrase.

 

[CuriousInIL]

I posted this earlier just before the big blowup and wanted to do so again because I suspect the OP did not really see it (and her PM inbox is now full–go figure).

Let’s say that you and your FH just found out that the tap water you have been drinking in your home has levels of lead in it that are dangerous. You didn’t know that before and that was why you both made the decision to drink it before. But, now that you know, would you continue to drink that water and let him drink that water for a few months until it is more convenient to get bottled water delivered? Or, would you stop right now?

 

[JimG]

JimG:

But the marital commitment has not yet been given. So the marital intimacy without the marital covenant turns out to be a lie.

Princess18:

Again, I understand the rule, but I am not the only one in this relationship. He is not Catholic, and does not feel that our contact is sinful. He equates his feeling when I turn him away with how a happily married man would feel if his wife turned him away repeatedly without a reason he could accept.

Just a few thoughts. You want to please him, and that’s actually a good thing. The desire to please your future husband is not in itself sinful. It is good. You feel bad because in refusing him, you seem to be changing the rules in the middle of the game, and in fact, you are changing the rules that you two have been living by. That, I think, is the source of your discomfort. He equates his feelings with how a happily married man would feel if his wife turned him away without a good reason.

But that is pretty much the reason that you changed the rules: you and he were living like a happily married couple, without actually being a married couple. Perhaps he can see that by making this change now—to living like unmarried persons, your wedding vows take on a true meaning; the wedding day won’t be just another day in a continuing relationship.

You are not the first or the last couple to have engaged in premarital relations. Your attempt to return to living ‘the rule’ is also a good thing, and will benefit both of you in the long run.

If you are to be married in a Catholic sacrament, I would just add that it is Catholic belief that the sacrament of matrimony imparts sacramental graces to equip the couple to live out their commitment to each other. Best wishes for your marriage.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

**Princess 18, your mail box is full… so I will reply here re: my PM since there is nothing really private about it. Maybe it can help someone else too?

I didn’t mean to imply that your fiance was being selfish. But in my situation, i was being selfish but didn’t realize it until I converted. Before I realized that my “hurt” feelings were unjustified I really did feel deep pain at the thought of my hubby not “wanting” me. I didn’t have the faith base to see any deeper than that

I will pray that you find the answers you need (even if they aren’t the ones you want) and that your upcoming marriage is holy and happy!

malia
**

 

[Star_of_Night]

Heres what you know about each other:

That you both will sleep with someone you aren’t married to.

Do you really want to marry someone that will sleep with someone he’s not married to?

By this logic anyone who has made a mistake and lost their virginity, or converted to Catholicism from a way of life that did not require sexual celibacy should never be married because it’s impossible for them to be faithful?

This issue is just ONE facet of a complicated individual.

 

[CuriousInIL]

By this logic anyone who has made a mistake and lost their virginity, or converted to Catholicism from a way of life that did not require sexual celibacy should never be married because it’s impossible for them to be faithful?

This issue is just ONE facet of a complicated individual.

I don’t think that the point was that it was impossible. Rather, I think the point was that the prior improper conduct raised the probability of future improper conduct. And, isn’t that true and isn’t that thinking used all the time in all sorts of places and situations?

 

[Star_of_Night]

Hey Princess,

I am in almost the exact same place you are. Except my fiancee is Catholic and I am not (though I am in RCIA). About six months ago (before we were engaged even) I told him I wanted to stop having sex. For the past year I had been attending various churches and was really searching hard for God and to find my faith. The more I learned and the more I prayed, the more I came to feel that my faith journey couldn’t continue while I was still sexually active. He took it very well, better than I even dreamed, if fact. What was shocked me was how hard it was for me.

When my fiancee learned that I felt our relationship was detrimental to my spiritual growth, that hurt him, because he would never want to interfere with my relationship with God. So he took my desire for chastity more seriously than I did at time. There have been weak moments when I’ve approached him for sex and he’s told me no, reminded me of our desire to remain chaste, and while I know in my head that this reaction is the most loving response he can have to me in my moments of weakness, it still hurts. And it’s also brought forward how I use sex in unhealthy ways.

When I have those moments, it’s not about “wanting sex,” it’s about wanting to know I’m loved, that he finds me attractive, the I can make him “want me.” I realize how now these are all very wrong reasons for sex, but this is also how I used sex for a decade. If someone had sex with me, it meant they liked me and I was attractive. So, we had to work a little harder to make sure I feel secure in his love for me at times. We still cuddle and kiss, and he tries to make sure I know how he feels. I make the point of telling myself that protecting my chastity (and I his) is one of the most loving sacrifices we can make for each other. And it is a sacrifice, but I truly believe it is worth it.

So make a point during this transition time to tell this wonderful man how much you love, how blessed you feel to have him. Do special things for him, cook his favorite meal, buy him flowers. Help him to feel extra special while you two get used to being chaste.

You will be in my prayers.

 

[whatevergirl]

Hey Princess,

I am in almost the exact same place you are. Except my fiancee is Catholic and I am not (though I am in RCIA). About six months ago (before we were engaged even) I told him I wanted to stop having sex. For the past year I had been attending various churches and was really searching hard for God and to find my faith. The more I learned and the more I prayed, the more I came to feel that my faith journey couldn’t continue while I was still sexually active. He took it very well, better than I even dreamed, if fact. What was shocked me was how hard it was for me.

When my fiancee learned that I felt our relationship was detrimental to my spiritual growth, that hurt him, because he would never want to interfere with my relationship with God. So he took my desire for chastity more seriously than I did at time. There have been weak moments when I’ve approached him for sex and he’s told me no, reminded me of our desire to remain chaste, and while I know in my head that this reaction is the most loving response he can have to me in my moments of weakness, it still hurts. And it’s also brought forward how I use sex in unhealthy ways.

When I have those moments, it’s not about “wanting sex,” it’s about wanting to know I’m loved, that he finds me attractive, the I can make him “want me.” I realize how now these are all very wrong reasons for sex, but this is also how I used sex for a decade. If someone had sex with me, it meant they liked me and I was attractive. So, we had to work a little harder to make sure I feel secure in his love for me at times. We still cuddle and kiss, and he tries to make sure I know how he feels. I make the point of telling myself that protecting my chastity (and I his) is one of the most loving sacrifices we can make for each other. And it is a sacrifice, but I truly believe it is worth it.

So make a point during this transition time to tell this wonderful man how much you love, how blessed you feel to have him. Do special things for him, cook his favorite meal, buy him flowers. Help him to feel extra special while you two get used to being chaste.

You will be in my prayers.

FABULOUS post–God bless you for sharing this! I bolded the points that I think are so crucial to understand when it comes to some of the motivation behind having sex before marriage. I remember losing boyfriends because I would not have sex, and it hurt. But, I relate to your post, because if I had started having sex–it would have been to ‘keep one of those bf’s’ or to ‘feel attractive or hot,’ as they say. In my first post to Princess, I asked the question relating to fear. I feared losing bf’s in the past…and everyone’s reasonings are different, but for women especially, we tend to feel loved through sex. I think that your post was just so perfectly stated!!!

Can you tell it made an impact on me?

 

[agapewolf]

By this logic anyone who has made a mistake and lost their virginity, or converted to Catholicism from a way of life that did not require sexual celibacy should never be married because it’s impossible for them to be faithful?

QUOTE]

Nope…its about current life.

People have pasts and make mistakes. They have conversions…as princess had a conversion.

I NEVER said it was impossible to be faithful. everyone stop putting words in my mouth.

He currently believes its ok to sleep with someone he’s not married to. Why should that necessarily change when there is a marriage? Thats the simple question. I didn’t say he would cheat, I didnt say that he wouldn’t convert, I didnt’ say anything of the sort.

People are taking offense to things that are simply not there.

There was no harsh tone, but simply a lack of a tone. I didn’t provide the “cushion” to soften anything here, nor did I condemn anyone. I simply just stated facts as are presented to me with the common experiences I hear about at least on a weekly basis…and in returned got yelled at and told me I should be ashamed of myself.

 

[Lexee15]

FABULOUS post–God bless you for sharing this! I bolded the points that I think are so crucial to understand when it comes to some of the motivation behind having sex before marriage. I remember losing boyfriends because I would not have sex, and it hurt. But, I relate to your post, because if I had started having sex–it would have been to ‘keep one of those bf’s’ or to ‘feel attractive or hot,’ as they say. In my first post to Princess, I asked the question relating to fear. I feared losing bf’s in the past…and everyone’s reasonings are different, but for women especially, we tend to feel loved through sex. I think that your post was just so perfectly stated!!!

Can you tell it made an impact on me?

Ditto:thumbsup: !!!

 

[whatevergirl]

By this logic anyone who has made a mistake and lost their virginity, or converted to Catholicism from a way of life that did not require sexual celibacy should never be married because it’s impossible for them to be faithful?

QUOTE]

Nope…its about current life.

People have pasts and make mistakes. They have conversions…as princess had a conversion.

I NEVER said it was impossible to be faithful. everyone stop putting words in my mouth.

He currently believes its ok to sleep with someone he’s not married to. Why should that necessarily change when there is a marriage? Thats the simple question. I didn’t say he would cheat, I didnt say that he wouldn’t convert, I didnt’ say anything of the sort.

People are taking offense to things that are simply not there.

There was no harsh tone, but simply a lack of a tone. I didn’t provide the “cushion” to soften anything here, nor did I condemn anyone. I simply just stated facts as are presented to me with the common experiences I hear about at least on a weekly basis…and in returned got yelled at and told me I should be ashamed of myself.

I saw your logic, agapewolf. But, the difference is that he wishes to marry Princess/the OP. I don’t think affairs are as much about sex, as people think they are–they have a lot to do with unresolved issues within the person who cheats, but that’s a topic for another thread. But, I just wanted to say, that I noticed your logic. On message boards, without inflection and tone–basic facts or opinions, can be construed to be offensive. Or can appear offensive. I don’t think we need to candy coat Truth–but I think Princess knew ‘truth’ and was looking for what to do now that things have gone too far–how does she apply that truth NOW to the way things are with her and her boyfriend. It isn’t as simple as ‘just stop’ the behavior…human feelings are at stake, and she was looking for ways to help her bf understand her desire to be chaste.

Anyways…

Princess? I hope things work out between you and your bf…just plant seeds, and hopefully, he will see that living chastely prior to marriage will blossom an abundant marital harvest.

 

[newbetx]

Well, Princess has received a lot to consider. A full mailbox… and a ton of posts. Huge for a first day at CAF. I suggest that we really can’t offer her more until she or her bf come back with more questions.

Peace be with you!

 

[Princess18]

Ack! I received so many emails that I had to keep deleting them. Who emailed me about joining the other forum? Please PM me.

THANK YOU!

 

[MCGar]

MAN! I missed out on my topic for the month! LOL I had something similar go on in my life and I wanted badly to post on here, (although I haven’t finished reading all the posts).

Princess18, I don’t know where you are now in the situation, but I would love for my guy to read about your situation and post his thoughts. He’s non-baptized non-Catholic and we went through something somewhat similar. He could probably offer you alot of insight.

 

[graceandglory]

Ok I know EVERYONE on this board repeatedly gives this as a reference but Princess18, I strongly suggest you order ( or pick up from your local Catholic resources store ) the book
“The Good News about Sex and Marriage” By Christopher West.
it.

Okay, I’ll go one step more. You say you are scheduled to be wed in nine and a half months?

How about the best marriage prep program on the earth?
I just returned from a one week course taught by Christopher West, at the Theology of the Body Institute. www.tobinstitute.org

I went as a single woman, but I would say it was pretty unanimous to everyone who attended that this one week class would prepare anyone for the best of sacramental marriages. That is, if you are really hoping to get married and stay married; and now have a basic sense of what a sacramental marriage is all about.

Good News About Sex and Marriage is not a book about the rules. You already mentioned that you know what the rules are. Now you are open to knowing and exploring the whys and thinking behind those rules.

How about signing up for a NFP class or Creighton class in your archdiocese? The couples there will be able to give you lots more personal testimony of why you should save sex for after you get married.

Statistics prove that God’s way really is a better way. The divorce rate among Catholic couples is pretty much equal to the divorce rate of the rest of the country, about 51%. Couples who follow the Church’s teaching on sex and marriage, and family planning, have about a 3% divorce rate. If you are hoping for a marriage that lasts, I would suggest giving the Church one more chance.

 

[Star_of_Night]

Just bumping for life_lover

 

[Princess18]

Hi everybody. I’ve gotten a bunch of emails asking how I’m doing, so I thought I’d post.

Thank you again for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut and advice. I had a chat with Future Husband, telling him that as hard as it was for him to understand, I REALLY felt that we needed to be chaste until the wedding. I started to offer other explanations and reasons, but he said it wasn’t necessary … if I felt that strongly about it, we’d wait. I went to confession and for the first time in 16 years, I participated in the Eucharist on Saturday night. He said that once he saw how wonderful and relieved I felt then, he knew we were doing the right thing, even though he’s not completely sure why.

I shared with him that couples who practice NFP (which you may read as “fully following the Church’s teaching”) have a 3% divorce rate vs the rest of the country (including Catholics) at 51%. He said that he was open to learning whatever I wanted to teach him, so I’m taking it slow. We discussed at length why “more rules” would lead to greater marital success? The only reason I can come up with is that we, as human beings, NEED and LIKE rules. If nothing’s off limits then nothing’s really valuable and sacred. Our ability to think critically is useless if we can’t use it to reason what’s good or bad for us. God gave us free will, but it would have been cruel not to put limits in place for our own good.

I bought the Christopher West books Theology of the Body (which I have not yet started) and Good News about Sex & Marriage (which I am almost finished with). I’ll be honest. My initial reaction is ABSOLUTE ANGER, WITH STEAM COMING OUT OF MY EARS. Why, oh why, did no one ever teach this before? This is COMPLETELY different than anything I was force-fed as a child and young adult. Had I know that the Church did not expect me to be a non-sexual breeding machine I may not have fought so hard (broad generalization there, sorry). Had anyone explained to me, in a way that makes sense, the true teachings of the Church, I might have been a great Catholic all this time and not done all the stupid things I did. After the anger subsides, I feel an unbelievable sense of calm and clarity.

My nieces are 13 and 15, have finished CCD and are now moving on to the middle and high school youth group format. I asked them if they had ever heard of Theology of the Body. Nope. I asked them what the Church taught about marriage and sex. The older one, rolling her eyes, said “God gave us sex and then told us not to do it or enjoy it.” The younger one said “I’m supposed to have as many kids as my body can make. If I happen to enjoy the sex that makes the babies, lucky me. I don’t want 15 babies, but if I don’t, I’m a bad Catholic”. This is not any different than what I learned and now I am not shocked that they are on the road to becoming similarly poor Catholics as I was. Why isn’t teaching Theology of the Body mandatory to these kids? Who’s going to have the bright idea of replacing the incorrect info they are obviously learning? I even asked my Mom (who converted circa 1961) if I had an option about when was the right time for us to have babies once we were married and she said, annoyed, “God doesn’t DO options”. I asked her about NFP and she said “I don’t know what that is, and I’m not sure why you’re bringing this up. Why can’t you accept that God knows better than you how many kids you should have and when?” (sigh)

But I digress. Back to me, I have essentially prayed non-stop. Reading and praying and talking it over with FH and then praying some more. I feel better. Lots better. I’ll keep reading everything I can find on TOB and will be taking an NFP class.

 

[whatevergirl]

Hi everybody. I’ve gotten a bunch of emails asking how I’m doing, so I thought I’d post.

Thank you again for all of your (name removed by moderator)ut and advice. I had a chat with Future Husband, telling him that as hard as it was for him to understand, I REALLY felt that we needed to be chaste until the wedding. I started to offer other explanations and reasons, but he said it wasn’t necessary … if I felt that strongly about it, we’d wait. I went to confession and for the first time in 16 years, I participated in the Eucharist on Saturday night. He said that once he saw how wonderful and relieved I felt then, he knew we were doing the right thing, even though he’s not completely sure why.

I shared with him that couples who practice NFP (which you may read as “fully following the Church’s teaching”) have a 3% divorce rate vs the rest of the country (including Catholics) at 51%. He said that he was open to learning whatever I wanted to teach him, so I’m taking it slow. We discussed at length why “more rules” would lead to greater marital success? The only reason I can come up with is that we, as human beings, NEED and LIKE rules. If nothing’s off limits then nothing’s really valuable and sacred. Our ability to think critically is useless if we can’t use it to reason what’s good or bad for us. God gave us free will, but it would have been cruel not to put limits in place for our own good.

I bought the Christopher West books Theology of the Body (which I have not yet started) and Good News about Sex & Marriage (which I am almost finished with). I’ll be honest. My initial reaction is ABSOLUTE ANGER, WITH STEAM COMING OUT OF MY EARS. Why, oh why, did no one ever teach this before? This is COMPLETELY different than anything I was force-fed as a child and young adult. Had I know that the Church did not expect me to be a non-sexual breeding machine I may not have fought so hard (broad generalization there, sorry). Had anyone explained to me, in a way that makes sense, the true teachings of the Church, I might have been a great Catholic all this time and not done all the stupid things I did. After the anger subsides, I feel an unbelievable sense of calm and clarity.

My nieces are 13 and 15, have finished CCD and are now moving on to the middle and high school youth group format. I asked them if they had ever heard of Theology of the Body. Nope. I asked them what the Church taught about marriage and sex. The older one, rolling her eyes, said “God gave us sex and then told us not to do it or enjoy it.” The younger one said “I’m supposed to have as many kids as my body can make. If I happen to enjoy the sex that makes the babies, lucky me. I don’t want 15 babies, but if I don’t, I’m a bad Catholic”. This is not any different than what I learned and now I am not shocked that they are on the road to becoming similarly poor Catholics as I was. Why isn’t teaching Theology of the Body mandatory to these kids? Who’s going to have the bright idea of replacing the incorrect info they are obviously learning? I even asked my Mom (who converted circa 1961) if I had an option about when was the right time for us to have babies once we were married and she said, annoyed, “God doesn’t DO options”. I asked her about NFP and she said “I don’t know what that is, and I’m not sure why you’re bringing this up. Why can’t you accept that God knows better than you how many kids you should have and when?” (sigh)

But I digress. Back to me, I have essentially prayed non-stop. Reading and praying and talking it over with FH and then praying some more. I feel better. Lots better. I’ll keep reading everything I can find on TOB and will be taking an NFP class.

That’s great news! I am happy for you–change takes time, I know this to be true for myself and husband. But, with God, all things are possible. I think too, why doesn’t the Church teach this more at the religious ed levels–like at least for confirmation when kids are older to understand? Well…we should be thankful, to have found it in our lives. It’s a blessing.

God bless, and hope things continue to go well!

 

[Belle10]

How wonderful that you and your FH are now following God’s plan. That’s great that he’s willing to learn with you. And a big :extrahappy: for you returning to confession, Mass, and the Holy Eucharist!!!

We discussed at length why “more rules” would lead to greater marital success? The only reason I can come up with is that we, as human beings, NEED and LIKE rules.

I think if you view it not as having to follow rules (which makes it seem like a chore) and more following God’s wonderful plans for marriage, maybe it’ll be easier. God didn’t make up a bunch of rules just for the heck of it. As far as “why more rules would lead to greater marital success,” I don’t think it’s that more “rules” equals success, I think it’s that using NFP and understanding TOB and God’s intentions for sexuality within marriage strengthens the intimacy, love, and respect between spouses, and that’s what equals success.

Why, oh why, did no one ever teach this before?

I’d like to know the answer to that one, I as also was not taught anything like this. (BTW, I’m 28.)

But I digress. Back to me, I have essentially prayed non-stop. Reading and praying and talking it over with FH and then praying some more. I feel better. Lots better. I’ll keep reading everything I can find on TOB and will be taking an NFP class.

Congrats again on returning to the church and preparing yourselves for a sacramental, beautiful marriage. I’ll offer a prayer for your preparation and life together as a married couple!

 

[jrabs]

Princess,
Thanks for the update. I am so proud of your difficult decision.

You have been brave, courageous and obedient to God. Congrats!

I am getting married in 2 months and I’ll tell ya - while chastity is not easy, it will be very rewarding after the wedding.