English Propers for EVERY SUNDAY

[Cat]

Yes, it is that hard to learn. I am with Cat on this. I think what we have here is a case of something seeming easier from the other side of knowledge.

One more thing–if music is not practiced regularly, the skill wanes.

My daughter discovered that the hard way last night. She has sung all her life in various choirs, including her college’s top choir, the touring choir. She’s an excellent singer with a beautiful voice.

But two years ago when she started grad school and clinicals (and marriage!) she stopped singing (except in the car with the radio). She hasn’t had time to sing in choirs.

Last night she tried out for an elite choir in her city, and she utterly bombed the audition. She discovered that she no longer sight reads as easily as she did in high school and college. She can’t sing on pitch. Her higher register has moved down. And she’s breathy. And on top of everything else, she was nervous to the point of trembling.

She was devastated. But I and her father and her sister and her husband all pointed out that you can’t expect to hang onto skills when you don’t use them.

So IMO, to expect people who have never been able to sing and who really haven’t read music since their school days (if they read it back then) to find it easy to sing something unfamiliar and frankly, unpleasant, music that people like me, who play music almost every day, find difficult to learn–well, that’s expecting too much.

I think that it’s realistic to be able to train a choir and cantors to sing this kind of music, but I suspect that as Sarabande has pointed out, many parishes do not have the kind of music director who is familiar or comfortable with this kind of music. A lot of parishes make use of volunteer musicians to lead the choir and schedule the cantors. In all likelihood, these volunteers will be learning the chants and propers online, and their lack of expertise will be amusingly obvious to the choirs and cantors that they attempt to teach.

I predict a muddled mess over the next year, and a sheepish and eventually defiant slide by most parishes back to the easy-to-play and sing, and pleasant to listen to, Haugen and Haas type hymns, along with the beautiful traditional hymns.

see next post

 

[Cat]

continued from last post

Don’t like hearing my gloomy predictions?

Well, then we need to figure out a better way than just “trusting the local music directors in parishes” to train their people to sing this new, strange, decidedly un-American-style music.

Here’s my suggestion, for what it’s worth. I think that the USCCB should seek out and select a committee of talented musicians who will be charged with the responsibility of training each and every parish in the United States to implement the “new old” music.

I think that these musicians should be experts on liturgical Catholic music. But even more important, they should be young, if not in years, in attitude, and possess the ability to not only teach people about the “new old music,” but also the ability to get the people enthused, excited, and personally touched by the “new old music” and its importance to the Mass.

I think that’s what’s missing right now. There are traditionalists who are hopping with joy over this development. But even though they feel “big”, the traditionalists are the decided minority. Most Catholics–yes, honestly now–most Catholics are ambivalent about this, and many, like myself, are apprehensive, and some are outright rebellious.

I simply don’t believe it will work. Maybe I’m wrong, and the traditionalists are right.

But I don’t think I’m wrong. I have a bad feeling about this music. I don’t think it will be a good thing for the Church at all. I think it will fail to do what traditionalist think it will do.

I’m 54 years old, and I’ve lived through many attempts in the Protestant churches to restore traditional music, and it just doesn’t work. People want good music, and they don’t want to go backwards, they want to move on.

I personally think that this “new old music” is going to lead to attrition from the Catholic Church, and I think that this will mean less money and less manpower, and that eventually the Catholic Church, at least in the United States, will be forced to retract the “new old music” and bring back not only Haugen and Haas, but even more modern music, and take the approach that seems to be packing the pews in Protestant megachurches–hiring talented professional musicians to deliver cutting-edge music from many different genres, primarily contemporary.

I listened to a few of the selections that someone kindly provided a link to, and I honestly don’t like it. It’s formless and random, and I don’t like that. I want regularity in my music. I want a regular rhythm and a soaring melody. I don’t like randomness. Life in this day and age is too full of randomness. I want order and form. JMO of course, and I can see why others enjoy the meandering notes and the “ancient” feeling. But I don’t, and I think many others will be in my camp.

So back to my suggestion. We need some dynamic leaders, appointed by the USCCB, who will be given the responsibility of convincing people like me all over the United States that this music IS good and teaching us how to implement it in our parishes. These people will be given permission to use whatever media necessary, including the most modern technologies possible. They will be paid well for their services.

I think this method would work. What we need is a unified, expert leadership to implement these changes. At the moment, too much is being given over to the locals, and unfortunately, because of the inadequacies of U.S. music education and the culture in which we live, not enough of the locals possess the knowledge to be able to adequately, let alone enthusiastically, implement the “new old music.”

Many of the locals are struggling to make a living with their music, and by the time they finish teaching private lessons, teaching in schools, playing/singing gigs, writing arrangements for local television commericals, writing for various publications, practicing their own music, and fulfilling their church obligations (playing, conducting, and/or singing, as well as planning the schedule of music for all the Masses), they really don’t want to take on something “new,” especially when they know in their hearts that most of the people in their congregation will utterly hate it and probably make tracks for the megachurch down the road with the great praise band.

The locals desperately need some help and guidance from some bigger guns. I hope that the USCCB will figure this out.

And I’m truly sorry for being such a wet blanket to all you who are excited about this development in the Church. I’m not trying to insult anyone personally, I’m just expressing my heartfelt opinion. If you are right and I am wrong, then I will be the first to say, “Hallelujah” along with you. And as always, whatever the Church decides, I submit, because I recognize that the Church is Jesus Christ’s appointed authority.

 

[jwinch2]

The locals desperately need some help and guidance from some bigger guns. I hope that the USCCB will figure this out.

And I’m truly sorry for being such a wet blanket to all you who are excited about this development in the Church. I’m not trying to insult anyone personally, I’m just expressing my heartfelt opinion. If you are right and I am wrong, then I will be the first to say, “Hallelujah” along with you. And as always, whatever the Church decides, I submit, because I recognize that the Church is Jesus Christ’s appointed authority.

For what it’s worth, in our Diocese, they are having multiple training sessions on the musical aspects of implementing the New Roman Missal this coming advent for all of the Diocesan musical directors and staff. In addition, those who wish and are members or even non-members of parish choirs or instrumentalist groups have workshops that they can go through as well which are run in each Deanery within the Diocese.

I would be surprised if similar training is not going on all over the country. Plus, it is my understanding that there are going to be multiple approved music settings to choose from and, while chant will be one, there will be others as well. With that in mind, it is not like each parish won’t have at least some flexibility on the music which is chosen within their liturgy. In addition, much of the chanting is designed to be done within the liturgy itself which leaves the processional and recessional hymns as well as perhaps the communion hymn which may still be done in other fashion.

Depending on the sizes of your parish you might have more than one Sunday morning mass? Chances are, that if your parish does implement this it will be at one and they will choose another music setting for one of their other masses. That way, you can pick which one you like best…

I hope that helps to ease your mind somewhat. I was very apprehensive when I first started looking into the new Missal as well. Heck, I just found out about 30 minutes ago that both of our priests are being transferred in about 5 weeks. To top it off, it looks like my wife and I will be moving in about 3 months so we have lots of changes coming up!

God bless!

Jason

 

[TheMc]

Cat,

I think your attitude of “move forward, dump the old music” is wrong on so many levels.

First, the church and the council said very clearly: “the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites”, also so many times, the church has said that chant has the pride of place (“principum locum” could also be translated as “the first place”).

Also, the current GIRM mentions that the faithful should know at least some of the ordinary in latin as chant.

Also, in the 70s, Paul VI released Jubilate Deo, a minimum repertoire of chant for every catholic.

Then recently, Pope Benedict said quite clearly:
“I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy”

One of the reasons the church reformed the structure of the Mass was so that more chant could be used. Before the council, it was pretty much an “all or nothing” deal.

Why should we throw our our church’s rich musical history? Sacrosanctum Concilium also says that we shouldn’t do that either. Clearly, your approach doesn’t seem to be what we should be doing. Frankly, I hope the USCCB does not get involved.

You mind as well get used to it. Chant is the music of the church, and it’s here to stay.

 

[jwinch2]

From the Chant Cafe, by Jeffrey A. Tucker:
There are no words to express my excitement about what is happening with the Simple English Propers. Tomorrow is the day that the print run will begin. And then: we will all have a book, one book, we can hold that provides chanted English propers for the modern ordinary form of Mass. This will take some getting used to - just the reality seems too good to be true. I can hardly believe that this is really happening.

I know that the post seems pointless. But I really just wanted to share the joy.

That’s right, the collection of propers for every Sunday and Feast is complete. These are ground breaking, not only because they are in english, but also because they are very simple to sing.

The “Full” version from the GR:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5ADysATyO...1p7IU/s400/in_gaudeamus__sanctorum_omnium.gif

The version from SP:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_3yY66jKK4...8/s400/IN_1_gaudeamus-sanctorum-omnium_MF.png

Now, that first one is the ideal introit for whatever day this is from (I’m not sure ), but how many parishes would be ready to sing that starting next week? Mine might, but I would imagine not many would.

But, with this new book of simple propers, not only is it in english, but you can learn them in about 5 minutes! This is amazing for any parish that is trying to get back to what the church wants for the sacred music used at Mass.

The other amazing part is that in almost every case, the simple proper retains the same “feel” as the original. I can attest to this first hand, after singing a GR introit, and then the same introit from SP. The link between the two is actually kind of eerie, but gregorian chant excels at the mystical.

When it is made public, I will post to this thread again when information on where and how to buy the book.

This is great for all you cantors that are able to make your own music choices, and also an excellent resource for when there is no organist, as they require/include no accompaniment.

Question. How did this process begin? Was it commissioned by someone for implementation, or is this a project starting by someone who is hopeful that it WILL be implemented by someone? Is other words, is this an official thing or something that has not been adopted in any official fashion?

Thanks!

Jason

 

[TheMc]

Question. How did this process begin? Was it commissioned by someone for implementation, or is this a project starting by someone who is hopeful that it WILL be implemented by someone? Is other words, is this an official thing or something that has not been adopted in any official fashion?

Thanks!

Jason

It was begun by Adam Bartlet from the CMAA. He wrote the melodies and compiled everything. So if you are asking if it was done or commissioned by the ICEL or something, no, it was not.

But, the texts are the official propers of the Mass, so it is just as “official” as a Mass setting, because you are actually singing the text of the Mass, not just a hymn.

Does this answer your questions?

 

[jwinch2]

It was begun by Adam Bartlet from the CMAA. He wrote the melodies and compiled everything. So if you are asking if it was done or commissioned by the ICEL or something, no, it was not.

But, the texts are the official propers of the Mass, so it is just as “official” as a Mass setting, because you are actually singing the text of the Mass, not just a hymn.

Does this answer your questions?

Somewhat. So, I would be correct in saying that the texts are official in that they use the actual texts of the Mass but that they have not been officially adopted by anyone for use or were not commissioned for use in the Mass by anyone in an official capacity.

Is that accurate?

Thanks!

 

[TheMc]

Somewhat. So, I would be correct in saying that the texts are official in that they use the actual texts of the Mass but that they have not been officially adopted by anyone for use or were not commissioned for use in the Mass by anyone in an official capacity.

Is that accurate?

Thanks!

I don’t think so. The melodies, and the book called “the simple propers project” is not official, but the texts themselves are from the graduale romanum (actually translations of the GR texts), the official music book of the church. So yes, the texts are official. When you hear people singing a complicated chant introit in latit, they are probably singing from the GR. That text is official. This project simply takes those pieces, and simplifies the melodies, and translates the text.

Does that make sense?

 

[jwinch2]

Does that make sense?

Yep! Thanks!

 

[Cat]

Cat,

I think your attitude of “move forward, dump the old music” is wrong on so many levels.

First, the church and the council said very clearly: “the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites”, also so many times, the church has said that chant has the pride of place (“principum locum” could also be translated as “the first place”).

Also, the current GIRM mentions that the faithful should know at least some of the ordinary in latin as chant.

Also, in the 70s, Paul VI released Jubilate Deo, a minimum repertoire of chant for every catholic.

Then recently, Pope Benedict said quite clearly:
“I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy”

One of the reasons the church reformed the structure of the Mass was so that more chant could be used. Before the council, it was pretty much an “all or nothing” deal.

Why should we throw our our church’s rich musical history? Sacrosanctum Concilium also says that we shouldn’t do that either. Clearly, your approach doesn’t seem to be what we should be doing. Frankly, I hope the USCCB does not get involved.

You mind as well get used to it. Chant is the music of the church, and it’s here to stay.

I can certainly see your points, and I appreciate your love for the traditional music of the Catholic Church. I agree that for the sake of preserving history, there should always be some time during the year when there is some kind of chant done in Mass.

I’m also very aware of the edict from the Church about the exalted place of Gregorian chant in the Mass.

And I’m aware that not too many parishes pay any attention to this edict.

I’ve been Catholic 7 years now. I’ve attended Mass in several different states, in many different parishes. I’ve never ever seen a Mass in which Gregorian chant was used, other than in the TLM in our city.

TheMc, I just don’t think it’s going to happen. Sorry, but I don’t believe it.

I was talking with a friend of mine, a music teacher in the parish school, just a few days ago. She said that for the last few decades there have been rumors about changes in the Mass music, and that the rumors always promise a ban on certain contemporary hymns and that the Mass will go back to chants, Propers, etc, just like the “old days.”

She said that it has never happened and never will. It’s just rumors.

And I think she’s right, TheMc.

I know that the Church does not form the liturgy in response to what the people want. That’s the way Protestant churches (at least the evangelical Protestant churches) do things. It’s called “needs-based ministries.” I attended a seminar about this many years ago and learned all about how churches should be meeting in bars and restaurants and serving coffee and donuts during the sermons, and offering aerobics classes along with women’s Bible studies.

No, the Mass is not something that adds and subtracts every new fad, and that’s a good thing. I don’t need to be offered donuts during a sermon.

But OTOH, there is a practical aspect that has to be considered. If the Church adds or takes away something from the Mass, and the result is the loss of thousands of parishioners, is that a good thing?

It certainly is hard on those who are left behind. The finances and manpower dwindle, and often, churches end up closing. This is so tough. I know of Catholic churches that are now restaurants. That must be really painful for old parishioners.

And also there is the spiritual aspect to this. Obviously people who leave because they object to music were never deeply grounded in the Church to begin with. But at least they were at Mass, receiving the Lord and gaining graces. Once they’ve left, they’re not receiving Jesus and they’re not gaining graces. They’re out there doing who knows what kind of worship, and often, they never come back to Catholicism. It’s heartbreaking for family members who remain true to the Church. There is a very real chance that these people who walk away from the Church will lose heaven, although I prefer to believe that the Lord will hear the prayers of Catholics and grant mercy to those who leave the Catholic Church out of ignorance. But I can’t say that for sure. No one can.

So I believe that the Church is doing the right thing to not “force” music on parishes. I’ve mentioned that our parish will be implenting chant and propers very very slowly. In fact, from what I know of the current music director, I doubt it will happen at all. Perhaps in one of the 9 Sunday Masses, we will see a little bit more traditional music. But I don’t think it will become the norm. I think that the music will continue along the same lines it is now (a mix of contemporary Gather-type songs and traditional hymns). Our music director just doesn’t have the time to come up with a plan to implement this.

So I guess my observation is, “I’ll believe it when I see it. But I don’t believe I’ll ever see it.”

Should we bet on it? How about a dollar? Within five years, I’m betting that most Catholic parishes will still be using the four hymn and not the chanted propers in most of their Sunday (including vigil) Masses If I’m wrong, I’ll pay you a dollar!

 

[pnewton]

Also, in the 70s, Paul VI released Jubilate Deo, a minimum repertoire of chant for every catholic.

Then recently, Pope Benedict said quite clearly:

Let me use this to explain part of the problem. Two years ago we made the switch to Jubilate Deo for bilingual Mass and daily Mass on Friday. Our initial goal was to have it ready for Holy Thursday. Even without the Credo, it took me every bit of three months to learn. When we got together, I found that only two other people in the Church had learned it as smoothly as I had. The rest of the parish was stuggling more. That’s okay, as I was able to carry it an pull it off. Also, there is not time limit as to how long it takes to get better at it. This being the case, the idea of learning the Proper for each day, it is simply unattainable. If the only choice was the Proper or nothing, we would opt for no music, not out of stubborness, but out of necessity. Where a parish can have paid professional musicians, then perhaps this is easier to implement.

 

[PLAT]

Cool music.

Regarding chants, do you think people write chants in this century?

Also what’s wwtefd in your sig…?

 

[Cat]

Let me use this to explain part of the problem. Two years ago we made the switch to Jubilate Deo for bilingual Mass and daily Mass on Friday. Our initial goal was to have it ready for Holy Thursday. Even without the Credo, it took me every bit of three months to learn. When we got together, I found that only two other people in the Church had learned it as smoothly as I had. The rest of the parish was stuggling more. That’s okay, as I was able to carry it an pull it off. Also, there is not time limit as to how long it takes to get better at it. This being the case, the idea of learning the Proper for each day, it is simply unattainable. If the only choice was the Proper or nothing, we would opt for no music, not out of stubborness, but out of necessity. Where a parish can have paid professional musicians, then perhaps this is easier to implement.

That’s interesting and scary.

Our diocese seems to be cutting back on paying for musicians. I learned that the Music Director at the Cathedral was just downsized to $200/week salary. He’s leaving at the end of the month; he has to, since he has a wife and several children to support, and he can’t do that with $800/month. Some other church will be lucky to get him; I’m guessing he’ll go to work at a Protestant church, where he will be paid around sixty thousand a year, plus expenses, plus receive a hefty music budget for expenditures in the church.

I’ve heard about other cutbacks in the music ministries in the parishes, all less devastating then this one.

My thought (and I could be wrong about this) is that perhaps the diocese thinks that less professional musicians will be needed if the Propers are used instead of the four hymns, so they’re cutting back on music so that they can increase the budget elsewhere. From what you are saying, pnewton, it sounds like the diocese is very wrong about this, and they’ll find out the hard way that chants don’t get learned unless someone qualified teaches, and even then, it’s hard going.

Like I’ve said several times, I have a very bad feeling about this “new old music” and what it’s going to do to parishes across the U.S. My apologies to all who are more optimistic, and I hope that you’re right and I’m wrong.

 

[stephraim]

Let me use this to explain part of the problem. Two years ago we made the switch to Jubilate Deo for bilingual Mass and daily Mass on Friday. Our initial goal was to have it ready for Holy Thursday. Even without the Credo, it took me every bit of three months to learn. When we got together, I found that only two other people in the Church had learned it as smoothly as I had. The rest of the parish was stuggling more. That’s okay, as I was able to carry it an pull it off.

Our parish had the opposite occur. We started using it about ten years ago, and only during Lent and Advent (which is still the current practice). By the end of our first Lent, the vast majority of the parish could sing it well.

 

[TheMc]

Our parish had the opposite occur. We started using it about ten years ago, and only during Lent and Advent (which is still the current practice). By the end of our first Lent, the vast majority of the parish could sing it well.

It also helps if you use mp3s or videos during the week too.

 

[pnewton]

It also helps if you use mp3s or videos during the week too.

We used mp3’s and I am sure that helped a lot. Unfortunately, it is hard to get the parish to “do homework.” If anyone is wondering, you can get the mp3’s for Jubilate Dei on the internet free.

 

[Sarabande]

We used mp3’s and I am sure that helped a lot. Unfortunately, it is hard to get the parish to “do homework.” If anyone is wondering, you can get the mp3’s for Jubilate Dei on the internet free.

haha! isn’t that the truth. It’s hard enough getting a volunteer choir to do homework.

 

[TheMc]

We used mp3’s and I am sure that helped a lot. Unfortunately, it is hard to get the parish to “do homework.”

I hate to be harsh, but isn’t that their problem if they don’t “do their homework”? Most people don’t learn something quickly by doing it for 30 seconds once a week.

If anyone is wondering, you can get the mp3’s for Jubilate Dei on the internet free.

Yes, here’s one place:
adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html

 

[Sarabande]

I hate to be harsh, but isn’t that their problem if they don’t “do their homework”? Most people don’t learn something quickly by doing it for 30 seconds once a week.

The reality is that most people won’t be doing their homework even when the materials are out there for them. That is human nature. Most prayers/music are either learned at school or attending mass every Sunday and just picking it up as you go along. When it was done during Religion class, I remember studying my prayers and such. When I was learning music, I did have to practice. But the majority of adults won’t be attending music classes, nor will they be attending religion class. Most will be very busy with their lives, raising families, etc. so they will be learning everything, slowly, at mass each Sunday.

My old parish did a Latin OF mass every other Sunday. Most parishioners didn’t do their homework and learned the Latin at home. Most did it by going every Sunday that had the Latin OF and reading along with the booklet provided plus listening to the others who knew it already. This will be the same with the music. The Latin chants we used for the Latin OF was also learned like that by those in the pews (unless they remembered it from childhood).

 

[pnewton]

I hate to be harsh, but isn’t that their problem if they don’t “do their homework”? Most people don’t learn something quickly by doing it for 30 seconds once a week.

No, it’s my problem, brother’s keeper and all that. Congregational worship is corporate.