Enough is enough

  • Thread starter Thread starter Fergal
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Uh…:confused: …

Oh! :bounce:

Childrens Liturgy of the Word!!! 😃 :o

Wow. Lucky you!
 
40.png
Catholic4aReasn:
***I’ve come to believe that the perfect Catholic Church does not exist. If you know of one near Appleton, WI please let me know. 🙂 ***
Click to expand...
I can’t tell you one that exists near Appleton, WI but if you ever come to Washington, DC area, make sure you visit the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception and the Franciscan Monastary. Both of which abide by the full GIRM.

Other then a few visitors actions that the church can’t control, both churches fully abide by the GIRM…
 
How far is Appleton from Wasau?

I guess you are not in Bishop Burkes previous Diocese (LaCrosse) since he seems to be such an orthodox Bishop but now in St. Louis

\
 
I have not read the new document yet…but is Children’s Liturgy of the Word not kosher anymore? Is it advised to not have it? i just need to know…
Blessings,
Shoshana
 
40.png
deogratias:
Write to your Bishops.
Click to expand...
Alas, it’s a problem when your pastor is the archbishop and he’s still trying to dig out from under the sexual abuse lawsuits. The liturgy of his cathedral is the worst mess I have ever seen. And to suggest writing the pope is more than risible, as His Holiness does not seem to have the attention of his American bishops. NB that this is my perception only, and I am sure that my local metropolitan’s lack of attention is entirely excusable. I’m sure it is.
 
He is my archbishop too but fortunately not my Bishop I guess. You might say the same for our new Bishop here - trying to clean up the scandal mess left to him but God Bless Him, he is trying to dig in to all areas of need and has addressed some liturgical abuses already -

I am trusting that Redemptionis Sacramenum means what it says.
[184.] Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.[290] It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity
Click to expand...
Interestingly one of the things I questioned - which was an instruction that we must remain standing until after all had received communion, had been instituted while you Archbishop was temporarily acting as Bishop until one was appointed. This however was clarified by a dubium upon Cardinal George asking for clarification. The Diocese told me I was correct and that one could choose to kneel or sit in prayer rather than remain standing if that was one’s choice.

I still strongly urge everyone to at least “try” to address liturgical abuses -
 
See Canon 212, paragraph 3 (Code of Canon Law)

Should members of a Catholic Church feel obligated to correct, advise or challenge their disobedient Pastor? I realize that we have a “right” to the Mass the way it was intended, but when the Mass has disobedience and disrespect woven into it, whose responsibility is it to fix it? I have battled (charitably) with several Pastors at several Churches (as I moved from one major midwest city to another). The pattern is always the same:
  1. Liturgical abuses noted. I take no action, but pray diligently for at least 6 months before I approach anyone.
  2. Liturgical abuses get worse. I make careful comments to some of the lay persons involved in the abuse–even provide documents to support my position of concern.
  3. Liturgical abuses continue. I mention the issue to the Priest in confession. I am usually told that the Church is broad enough to accommodate everyone (the warm fuzzy explanation)
  4. Liturgical abuses continue. I meet with the Pastor. His response is usually a variation of a) this is the way I was taught (hello? can you read a book and find out that you were taught wrong?!) or b) “my way” is not the only way (but it’s not my way! it’s the Church’s way!)
  5. Liturgical abuses continue.
By this time, usually two years has passed. I don’t see improvement and I am getting discouraged. I have written to the Bishops (three of them over the territories where I lived) with little to no positive results (one great exception where the Pastor was removed from a downtown Church in a major city because, presumably, he wrote heresy into the weekly bulletin.)

But wouldn’t it be nice if there was a formal “Vicar of Compliance” or a “Mass Sentry?” He could visit each Church in a diocese and note the abuse, then bring it to the attention of the Bishop. Three strikes and you’re out.

As much as I love to defend the Church, it is hard to spend so many hours just trying to get a Priest to do what he promised the Bishop he would do – be obedient! Most of us work full-time besides! Is it fair to expect that we have the duty to make sure the Mass is celebrated according to the Church’s request?
 
40.png
warrior:
See Canon 212, paragraph 3 (Code of Canon Law)

But wouldn’t it be nice if there was a formal “Vicar of Compliance” or a “Mass Sentry?” He could visit each Church in a diocese and note the abuse, then bring it to the attention of the Bishop. Three strikes and you’re out.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure I would favor a “liturgy gestapo” – though the thought has its appeal.

In my parish, where we have very few outright abuses but rather a “generous” interpretation of the rubrics, we tend to have “delayed obedience.” We finally implemented the directives for EMHCs, a year after they were promulgated, because the bishop was coming for Confirmations and the pastor wanted to be in compliance. It could be worse.
 
yes I am happy at every Mass I have the privilege to attend, at my parish or anywhere else. Jesus is always there, I always hear God’s Word proclaimed, I always join in praising Him and best of all Jesus is always there, and when I am able I receive Him. I disregard what seems to conflict with the “right rite” because in our parish we have an attentive, orthodox pastor and a liturgy committee, it’s their job, not mine. Other parishes are not my responsiblity. I listen, participate, contemplate, and receive what Jesus gives me in every Mass, and always, always, I hear Him speak a word to me, and cherish Him close to my heart.
 
Marauder said:
1. Pray
2. Write a letter to your pastor about issues. Make sure it is cordial, too the point, and not demanding. Remember to give him courtesy. (When I did this I had an orthodox priest read it over first.)
3. If item 2 doesn’t work, write the Bishop.
4. If item 3 doesn’t work, write the Vatican Nuncio.
Click to expand...

Yes, that’s what we should do.
Unfortunately, so many people prefer complain among themselves instead.
 
40.png
warrior:
See Canon 212, paragraph 3 (Code of Canon Law)

Should members of a Catholic Church feel obligated to correct, advise or challenge their disobedient Pastor? … I have battled (charitably) with several Pastors at several Churches … The pattern is always the same:
  1. Liturgical abuses noted. I take no action, but pray diligently for at least 6 months before I approach anyone.
Click to expand...
Six Months! Holy smokes. Why do let it go on so long? I pray, then write the pastor! On Monday morning!2. Liturgical abuses get worse. I make careful comments to some of the lay persons involved in the abuse–even provide documents to support my position of concern.
3. Liturgical abuses continue. I mention the issue to the Priest in confession. I am usually told that the Church is broad enough to accommodate everyone (the warm fuzzy explanation)
4. Liturgical abuses continue. I meet with the Pastor. His response is usually a variation of a) this is the way I was taught (hello? can you read a book and find out that you were taught wrong?!) or b) “my way” is not the only way (but it’s not my way! it’s the Church’s way!)
5. Liturgical abuses continue.

By this time, usually two years has passed. When we were Confirmed, we became soldiers in Christ’s army, members of the Church Militant, if you will.
As such, we should be willing to defend the Church from attacks ~ both from outside, and from within.
I find those from within to be the most dangerous.
Weak souls can be lost to outside seductions, but souls cannot be properly nourished and formed when catechesis and liturgies are laced with errors and abuses.
The steps you’ve outlined are a good reason that the abuses continued.
The very most important thing that must be done is that the abuses need to be documented, in writing, to the pastor, with a copy going to the bishop.
You should see results in most cases.
Telling the laity who are doing the abuses has little or no impact; they’re a member of the good ol’ boy network, and aren’t going to buck the system, nor bite the hand that pats them on the back and says “Job well done!”
You must take the problem to those who have the authority to fix it, and the responsibility to fix it.
But, always do so in charity. Don’t assume people are committing abuses because they want to desecrate the Church. They are usually well-meaning people who are poorly formed or over zealous in their volunteerism.
Provide Church documents.
Keep records of your communications, as you might need to take it “higher.” 😉
As much as I love to defend the Church, it is hard to spend so many hours just trying to get a Priest to do what he promised the Bishop he would do – be obedient! Most of us work full-time besides! Is it fair to expect that we have the duty to make sure the Mass is celebrated according to the Church’s request?
Click to expand...
I think maybe liturgical laziness is what got us all into this mess…Somebody’s gotta call the cleanup crew…if not you, who?
Pax Christi. <><
 
I think maybe liturgical laziness is what got us all into this mess…Somebody’s gotta call the cleanup crew…if not you, who?
Click to expand...
I concur - and in the past was guilty of it until I got my liturgical ducks in a row and was certain that what I viewed as abuses really were.

But once we know, we must not surrender to the whims of the liturgists rather than to the will of the Church. It is the Church and her rules which we are to obey and not the liturgical abuses imposed by some.

They may be converting a few protestants with some of these antics but they are probably driving away more Catholic faithful at the same time.
 
Please check this link on adoremus:

adoremus.org/0404Liturgy.html

about Redemptionis Sacrementum.

You will note that it is your responsibility to report liturgical abuse.

Print the article and take the time to read it–it’s very good.
 
My wife an I are new converts. We are finding ourselves on the far concervative edge in a very liberal Diocese - Saginaw, MI.

Now, we are trying to be differential, but we can read too and immediately see all these abuses. OK, whew, what do we do? Our Bishop, Ken Untener, recently died, and now we await the appointment of a new Bishop. My guess is that the new Bishop will work on this and will certainly have a letter from me, day 1.

The problem is that I am working to evangelize a few folks and now I am unable to present the Universal Church as advertised. I’m unable to explain the differences between the GIRM and what is going on. Our RCIA folks avoided all this when we came in by giving us the ‘experential’ conversion approach – thereby never discussing the Mass except for the core elements.
 
. OK:
Concentrate on the teachings of the Church instead of the mass while evangalizing. Get a copy or l0 of Pillar of Fire, Pillars of Truth available on Catholic Answers web site - an invaluable little book for evangalizing and very inexpensive. That is what drew you to the Church I am sure, the fact that it is the true Church of Jesus Christ. The liturgical abuses are not everywhere but some are overwhelming. Hopefully by the time those you get interested in Mother Church come to the point where you have to address the Mass you will have a little more history on how these abuses came into being and can show them Redemptionis Sacramentum as evidence that Rome knows they exist and are taking steps to correct them and are enlisting you to help do this.
Click to expand...
 
In the above poll, I selected “always happy”. I must give a postal script here: I am “always happy” with the parrish I am at now. Before, I was at a Roman Rite parish, with a pastor that always seemed to be, well grumpy. I remember once, calling the office to see if I could go to confession, and he told me, “Can you call back tomorrow, 'cause the office is about to close?” As if his priestly duties are bound by office hours. All of the other Roman Rite parishes had quirks that bugged me: Either liberal priests, horrible liturgical music, sloppy preaching that always avoided sticky subjects that are very much needed to be addressed today. There was one Roman parish that I would’ve joined, and perhaps this is me being too niggardly, but the music there was so darn slow! I would go there, and, say, the Gloria would be sung, and I would sing it at the tempo that I am used to, and, lo and behold, I’d find out that I was a verse or two ahead! I tried to train myself to sing slower, but my diaphragm wouldn’t let me! Anyways, I now attend the Melkite-Greek Catholic Church in my town, and love it. I had been there numerous times before, and the pastor is a family friend, and the associate pastor was my spiritual director.

Cocamo Joe
 
40.png
warrior:
But wouldn’t it be nice if there was a formal “Vicar of Compliance” or a “Mass Sentry?” He could visit each Church in a diocese and note the abuse, then bring it to the attention of the Bishop. Three strikes and you’re out.
Click to expand...
Sadly, most U.S. bishops act like little more than sacramental vending machines. I suggested on Catholic Answers that we come up with a Compliance Form for the Laity listing the most common abuses with check off boxes and adequate spaces for comments. Then, mail them off to Rome 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top