Entropy, life and teleology

[lelinator]

Your belief in God allows no other decision as far as you are concerned. Whereas I have two options: If God exists then there is design and teleology in everything. If He doesn’t then there isn’t.

These are examples of relationships that could only exist as a possibility if a creator intended for those possibilities to exist because a creator has knowledge and nature does not…

As a solipsist, the fascinating thing about reality, is trying to figure out why things do the things that they do. And it’s this ongoing quest for the answers to “Why”, that makes life so tremendously intriguing. But the most fascinating bit about reality, is people, and what they believe, and why they believe. That’s the greatest mystery of all.

That having been said, this thread is particularly interesting, because it takes one simple observation …there’s order in the world… and posits two completely different explanations. Explanations that are amazingly interesting when viewed next to each other.

@IWantGod believes that the order in the world is indisputable evidence for the existence of an intelligent creator. But is he right? Or is he completely, and totally wrong? Because if @Freddy is right, then what you’re seeing isn’t the result of “created” order at all, it’s simply the inevitable result of a reality that’s constantly fluctuating between order and disorder.

You see, Freddy’s an advocate of Roger Penrose’s CCC hypothesis. Which posits that reality is constantly fluctuating between a state of high entropy, and a state of low entropy. And that at their extremes, those two states are in fact identical. And so reality inevitably fluctuates between order and disorder. Now if Roger Penrose is right, then the order that you’re seeing in the world…the order that IWantGod attributes to the one off act of an intelligent creator…is simply a result of a cycle that has been going on forever. Order arises out of disorder, and then inevitably returns to disorder again…over and over. No intelligent creator required.

Now IWantGod already believes that the existence of “nothing” is impossible. And all that’s required after that, in order to get to Roger Penrose’s fluctuating reality, is to posit that entropy always increases. Order always gives way to disorder.

If you can envision those two things…that the existence of “nothing” is impossible, and that order always gives rise to disorder, then you’ve eliminated the need for an intelligent creator, and reality simply exists because the existence of nothing is impossible, and what we perceive as order is simply the inevitable outcome of order arising out of disorder.

But hey, people believe what they want to believe. At least it keeps me entertained…what more could I ask for?

 

[Freddy]

If you can envision those two things…that the existence of “nothing” is impossible, and that order always gives rise to disorder, then you’ve eliminated the need for an intelligent creator, and reality simply exists because the existence of nothing is impossible, and what we perceive as order is simply the inevitable outcome of order arising out of disorder.

But hey, people believe what they want to believe. At least it keeps me entertained…what more could I ask for?

Couldn’t have put it better myself…

And yes, it is entertaining.

 

[IWantGod]

Now IWantGod already believes that the existence of “ nothing ” is impossible.

Absolutely Nothing is impossible. But it would be more accurate to say that it is impossible for there to not be any reality at all. If absolutely nothing is impossible, then something must absolutely and necessarily exist. This means that no part of it can be said to not exist, since everything that it is and can possibly be necessarily exists eternally. The consequence of this is that it cannot change since it cannot be something moving from potentiality to actuality. It cannot have any potentially real parts, states, or properties, since everything that it is is necessarily real and not potentially real. In other-words this ultimate reality has the fullness of it’s reality and is not in anyway limited in the expression of it’s existence since it is existence itself. This rules out any limited physical process from being this ultimate reality, and this includes Roger Penrose’s CCC hypothesis.

 

[Neithan]

Christianity is a particular form of denial. Denial is a form of wishful thinking. I wish that there is no Allah (to whom I would be accountable and to whom I would give thanks for existence and everything in existence)

Well, no. Christians believe in Allah (there are Arabic Christians). Buddhism is a denial of a great many things; Christianity affirms too many things if it isn’t true.

 

[Freddy]

lelinator:

Now IWantGod already believes that the existence of “ nothing ” is impossible.

Nothing is impossible. But it would be more accurate to say that it is impossible for there to not be a reality. If nothing is impossible, then something must absolutely and necessarily exist. This means that no part of it can be said to not exist, since everything that it is and can possibly be necessarily exists eternally. The consequence of this is that it cannot change since it cannot be something moving from potentiality to actuality. It cannot have any potentially real parts, states, or properties, since everything that it is is necessarily real and not potentially real. In other-words this ultimate reality has the fullness of it’s reality and is not in anyway limited in the expression of it’s existence since it is existence itself. This rules out any limited physical process from being this ultimate reality, and this includes Roger Penrose’s CCC hypothesis.

But the ccc has always existed (but there’s no infinite temporal regress). So there’s no requirement for movement from potentiality to actuality. There just is actuality. That doesn’t mean the ccc is necessarily correct. It just means that your argument is not applicable.

 

[Neithan]

Easy enough, right?

Is it? I’m basically asking about the wider implications of Schroedinger’s paradox (not the cat) and how, if it’s a paradox at the basic level of life vis-à-vis entropy, then if we broaden the scale and look at evolution in its entirety, we have an enormously puzzling enigma.

 

[IWantGod]

But the ccc has always existed (but there’s no infinite temporal regress). So there’s no requirement for movement from potentiality to actuality. There just is actuality

CCC is fluctuating and therefore changing from one potential state to another. It has a limited expression of existence.

There is no point ignoring it.

 

[Freddy]

rossum:

Christianity is a particular form of denial. Denial is a form of wishful thinking. I wish that there is no Allah (to whom I would be accountable and to whom I would give thanks for existence and everything in existence)

Christianity affirms too many things if it isn’t true.

I look at it completely the other way around. It seems to me that everything works just as it should. But when you bring in God you bring in a lot of problems that can’t be answered satisfactorily. Notwithstanding that no two religions agree on how God interacts with us. Or even people within any given religion.

 

[Neithan]

reality simply exists because the existence of nothing is impossible, and what we perceive as order is simply the inevitable outcome of order arising out of disorder

I think that’s a non sequitur. Order is not inevitable from disorder.

 

[fhansen]

Can this be metaphysically reconciled? Or does it force the materialist to be eliminativist about the theory of evolution? Or even “life” as a distinction generally? In other words, is evolution a “useful fiction” — or is life truly distinct from non-life — or is it evidence of teleology in the universe?

If evolution is theorized to be the product of random occurrences and mutation, then it proceeds mindlessly, without design or purpose. Not saying that the probability of such a process is rational, just saying (whats probably already been said in this thread) .

 

[Neithan]

God you bring in a lot of problems that can’t be answered satisfactorily.

Interesting discussion topic there. How come you don’t start any topics?

 

[stoplooklisten]

Let’s try that in a different key:

Christianity is a particular form of denial. Denial is a form of wishful thinking. I wish that there is no Allah (to whom I would be accountable and to whom I would give thanks for existence and everything in existence)

Hello, Rossum. I am glad that you enjoy music. I think that it’s a powerful way to influence the non-material components of the soul like mind, will and emotion.

Whether our civil government leaders deny or acknowledge the facts about COVID-19 (new case rates, etc.) will influence how they respond to it.

Concerning non-material entities like an angels, demons, afterlife, recompense in the afterlife for how life was lived on earth, heaven, hell, God…we can make assumptions and presumptions but we can’t put the these entities into a test-tube and put them through repeatable testing cycles as would fit the scientific method. We dare not try to test God and prove out our hypotheses but we can expect that Almighty God in the end may test us. In that case, the recommended prayers of preparation include: Lord, have mercy and…Lord, have mercy upon me a sinner.

 

[rossum]

I am glad that you enjoy music.

Try this.

Lord, have mercy upon me a sinner.

For a slightly extended version, see Saying the Jesus Prayer.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

But the ccc has always existed (but there’s no infinite temporal regress). So there’s no requirement for movement from potentiality to actuality. There just is actuality

CCC is fluctuating and therefore changing from one potential state to another. It has a limited expression of existence.

I disagree. And I’ll use something you said to show you why: “It cannot have any potentially real parts, states, or properties, since everything that it is is necessarily real and not potentially real”.

 

[Freddy]

Neithan:

Can this be metaphysically reconciled? Or does it force the materialist to be eliminativist about the theory of evolution? Or even “life” as a distinction generally? In other words, is evolution a “useful fiction” — or is life truly distinct from non-life — or is it evidence of teleology in the universe?

If evolution is theorized to be the product of random occurrences and mutation, then it proceeds mindlessly, without design or purpose.

I can give you 4 out of 5 for that.

Mutation is random. And evolution is indeed mindless, without design or purpose. But natural selection isn’t random, so the whole process itself becomes non random.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

God you bring in a lot of problems that can’t be answered satisfactorily.

Interesting discussion topic there. How come you don’t start any topics?

One based on that topic would actually be: ‘Why I don’t believe in God’. S’bit too broad brush, I think.

 

[stoplooklisten]

But natural selection isn’t random, so the whole process itself becomes non random.

Would you ask “natural selection” to hurry up and eat up all the COVID-19 out there and make it go away? The fear has been that COVID-19 is going to attack us and make us go away. But, I don’t think that the human story ends that way.

 

[Hume]

Again, we can observe entropy, but we can also observe electromagnetism. They’re not mutually exclusive.

Entropy as an absolute was broken 10 billion years before life existed. Stars formed.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

But natural selection isn’t random, so the whole process itself becomes non random.

Would you ask “natural selection” to hurry up and eat up all the COVID-19 out there and make it go away? The fear has been that COVID-19 is going to attack us and make us go away. But, I don’t think that the human story ends that way.

I was actually watching the film Contagion with Matt Damon last night. I went to get myself a beer and when I got back there was a American anouncer talking about new restrictions and background pictures of deserted streets. I had to ask my wife: Is this a news preview or are we still watching the film?

I think we’ll be ok. Australia seems to have it beat at the moment. Just a few new cases each day. But then, we haven’t got idiots with placards walking the streets demanding to free the states. Or a head of government who thinks that bright lights and injecting disinfectant might be a good idea.

OK, political rant over…

 

[fhansen]

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