Environmental Issues and the Eucharist

[KarenNC]

I do not know one needs to intentionally avoid such an action. Whether it is authentically positive is one debate. The other debate is if it is really positive does it make any difference? That is why I asked about magnitude. It may be a nice gesture but I am not sure it matters either morally or environmentally.

Sometimes “gestures” make a strong statement and create a strong image well out of proportion to their actual measurable impact.

As an example, would it really make a large magnitude of difference on the water supply for an entire town if, in the middle of a drought, the mayor of the town is seen watering his lawn after encouraging strict water restictions? Does it make an appreciable dent in the bottom line if the president of the the local Coke bottling plant serves Pepsi the annual Christmas party at which he encourages folks to support Coke products to protect their jobs?

Neither one is huge in magnitude of measurable effect, but very large in showing whether the leaders of these groups actually “put their money where their mouth is” in visible, public ways. It shows that there is not a disconnect between the message and the actions of the group.

In this case, it would be whether there was a disconnect between the message that is being given about stewardship of the environment particularly given recent statements by the Pope. The individual churches as the leaders by example in this.

guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2066711,00.html

Friday April 27, 2007

*The Vatican yesterday added its voice to a rising chorus of warnings from churches around the world that climate change and abuse of the environment is against God’s will, and that the one billion-strong Catholic church must become far greener.

At a Vatican conference on climate change, Pope Benedict urged bishops, scientists and politicians - including UK environment secretary David Miliband - to “respect creation” while “focusing on the needs of sustainable development”.

The Pope’s message follows a series of increasingly strong statements about climate change and the environment, including a warning earlier this year that “disregard for the environment always harms human coexistence, and vice versa”.

Observers said yesterday that the Catholic church is no longer split between those who advocate development and those who say the environment is the priority. Cardinal Renato Raffaele Martino, head of the Pontifical Council of Justice and Peace, said: “For environment … read Creation. The mastery of man over Creation must not be despotic or senseless. Man must cultivate and safeguard God’s Creation.”*

In what way would it be either morally or environmentally a bad thing, so that it should not even be considered as an option if a church wanted to do this?

 

[estesbob]

For the large part of our population that likes to wallow in guilt, mostly over things they had nothing to do with, this this is the perfect opportunity to take their guilt to church with them.

 

[fix]

Sometimes “gestures” make a strong statement and create a strong image well out of proportion to their actual measurable impact.

As an example, would it really make a large magnitude of difference on the water supply for an entire town if, in the middle of a drought, the mayor of the town is seen watering his lawn after encouraging strict water restictions? Does it make an appreciable dent in the bottom line if the president of the the local Coke bottling plant serves Pepsi the annual Christmas party at which he encourages folks to support Coke products to protect their jobs?

Neither one is huge in magnitude of measurable effect, but very large in showing whether the leaders of these groups actually “put their money where their mouth is” in visible, public ways. It shows that there is not a disconnect between the message and the actions of the group.

Yes, those examples are clear. What is not clear is what the OP states. One example:

(3) Others, including air pollution from long-range transport.

Does the transportation of wine from one location to another outweight other factors? To simply conclude air pollution is bad therefore transporting wine is bad seems far fetched.

In this case, it would be whether there was a disconnect between the message that is being given about stewardship of the environment particularly given recent statements by the Pope. The individual churches as the leaders by example in this.

guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2066711,00.html

Friday April 27, 2007

*The Vatican yesterday added its voice to a rising chorus of warnings from churches around the world that climate change and abuse of the environment is against God’s will, and that the one billion-strong Catholic church must become far greener.

At a Vatican conference on climate change, Pope Benedict urged bishops, scientists and politicians - including UK environment secretary David Miliband - to “respect creation” while “focusing on the needs of sustainable development”.

The Pope’s message follows a series of increasingly strong statements about climate change and the environment, including a warning earlier this year that “disregard for the environment always harms human coexistence, and vice versa”.

Observers said yesterday that the Catholic church is no longer split between those who advocate development and those who say the environment is the priority. Cardinal Renato Raffaele Martino, head of the Pontifical Council of Justice and Peace, said: “For environment … read Creation. The mastery of man over Creation must not be despotic or senseless. Man must cultivate and safeguard God’s Creation.”*

In what way would it be either morally or environmentally a bad thing, so that it should not even be considered as an option if a church wanted to do this?

None of that says we need to be concerned about how the Church obtains wheat and wine. You give a quote about a general topic and claim the OP’s concern is justified.

 

[fnr]

Does the transportation of wine from one location to another outweight other factors? To simply conclude air pollution is bad therefore transporting wine is bad seems far fetched.

I’d suggest you look at the citations in my last note. The “tragedy of the commons” is a real thing, and there’s real evidence that our actions, in combination, affect things. I’m not saying that there’s 100% certainty, just a preponderance of evidence.

Here’s a real world example. The Hunts Point neighborhood in the South Bronx contains a large produce warehousing district that helps to feed all the denizens of New York. Thousands of diesel trucks per day drive through that neighborhood, which happens to be an impoverished area with relatively high asthma rates. The people in that neighborhood are bearing the burden of New Yorkers’ “upstream” impacts, and they’ll never be compensated for it. What about the Irish and Italian Catholic populations of New York City? A little bit of effort there might go a long way!

There’s also the issue of the treatment and working conditions of migrant workers, many of whom work in agriculture. Choosing to deliberately seek sources for Eucharistic bread and wine that avoid pesticides and treat workers in even a legal way would in my eyes be a net good.

 

[fix]

I’d suggest you look at the citations in my last note. The “tragedy of the commons” is a real thing, and there’s real evidence that our actions, in combination, affect things. I’m not saying that there’s 100% certainty, just a preponderance of evidence.

Here’s a real world example. The Hunts Point neighborhood in the South Bronx contains a large produce warehousing district that helps to feed all the denizens of New York. Thousands of diesel trucks per day drive through that neighborhood, which happens to be an impoverished area with relatively high asthma rates. The people in that neighborhood are bearing the burden of New Yorkers’ “upstream” impacts, and they’ll never be compensated for it. What about the Irish and Italian Catholic populations of New York City? A little bit of effort there might go a long way!

There’s also the issue of the treatment and working conditions of migrant workers, many of whom work in agriculture. Choosing to deliberately seek sources for Eucharistic bread and wine that avoid pesticides and treat workers in even a legal way would in my eyes be a net good.

I asked if the transportation outweighs other factors? Why drive a car? Why buy produce that was transported in a truck? Where does it end?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I asked if the transportation outweighs other factors? Why drive a car? Why buy produce that was transported in a truck? Where does it end?

How can one criss-cross the globe in jet aircraft, flitting from one venue to another, and call oneself an “environmentalist?”

 

[fnr]

All I can say is that “it” currently starts and ends in exactly the same place, which is right here. I think a rational discussion can put all of the relevant factors on the table and come up with a good approach.

Here’s an example.

What are the factors the Church should consider in sourcing bread and wine for Eucharistic purposes?
-Cost
-Quality
-Parishoner acceptance
-Evidence of farm worker treatment
-Environmental impacts of production and transport
-(And so on)

If you asked 100 bishops, 100 priests, and 100 lay people to rank these concerns, just out of the blue, I think you could have a reasonable picture of how to weigh each of the factors. That’s a starting point in figuring out where it all ends.

 

[estesbob]

All I can say is that “it” currently starts and ends in exactly the same place, which is right here. I think a rational discussion can put all of the relevant factors on the table and come up with a good approach.

Here’s an example.

What are the factors the Church should consider in sourcing bread and wine for Eucharistic purposes?
-Cost
-Quality
-Parishoner acceptance
-Evidence of farm worker treatment
-Environmental impacts of production and transport
-(And so on)

If you asked 100 bishops, 100 priests, and 100 lay people to rank these concerns, just out of the blue, I think you could have a reasonable picture of how to weigh each of the factors. That’s a starting point in figuring out where it all ends.

I Sincerely hope that neither my priest or my bishop waste any of their precious time doing this.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I Sincerely hope that neither my priest or my bishop waste any of their precious time doing this.

If they do, we’ll know the Church intends to send a team to the Olympics to compete in the Pole Vaulting Over Mouse Droppings event.

 

[KarenNC]

I asked if the transportation outweighs other factors? Why drive a car? Why buy produce that was transported in a truck? Where does it end?

Why should it have to “outweigh other factors”? It is however a factor and thus a valid discussion point.

Why drive a car? Because my community does not have a viable mass transit alternative that is available to me. Would it theoretically be “better” in environmental terms if I could exist without driving a car. Yes, likely it would. That option is not available, so I seek to minimize the impact of that choice. I drive the most fuel efficient car I can given my budget and balancing concerns over emissions with concerns over safety. I combine trips when possible, which also benefits me in less money outlaid on gas.

Why buy produce that has been transported on a truck? Because it is not available locally? The majority of my produce comes from a local organic farm that we support through a community-supported agriculture program or our local farmers’ market. I still have to drive to pick it up, but I know the grower, know the conditions under which it is grown(remember the recent e coli scare with lettuce), it’s very fresh, it encourages me to eat more seasonally (something I consider desirable), supports my local economy, and helps keep me and my family aware of our ties to the environment. Crops fail, are delayed, etc due to weather conditions, but that helps keep us grateful for the bounty we enjoy. I also like bananas and those don’t grow here, so I try to do a bit of offset of the pollution produced during transport by buying organic. Ideally, I would grow all my own produce, but that is not something that I am going ever do and I know that. This is a compromise that I find workable.

It ends wherever you want it to end, and that point will vary with each person, based on your goals and circumstances.

Why in the world has this become a discussion of “all or nothing” with no room for any middle ground?

 

[KarenNC]

None of that says we need to be concerned about how the Church obtains wheat and wine. You give a quote about a general topic and claim the OP’s concern is justified.

No, the Church does not “have to” be concerned about how it obtains wheat and wine. However, I am at a loss to understand why folks are so adamantly opposed to the idea that it may be appropriate or allowable to do so. It is not simply a consumer question, it is also a producer question.

In what way is it not reasonable to be concerned over the conditions in which the workers who pick and grow such crops work? Whether they are needlessly exposed to dangerous amounts of pesticides, paid a living wage, receive appropriate housing and treatment?

The Catholic Migrant Farmworker Network seems concerned
cmfn.org/issues.html
*Pesticides
The Environmental Protection Agency estimates that 300,000 farmworkers suffer acute pesticide poisoning each year. *

from Vern Humphrey:
How can one criss-cross the globe in jet aircraft, flitting from one venue to another, and call oneself an “environmentalist?”

If you are saying that you believe the Pope is hypocritical in talking about environmental issues or the Vatican becoming the first carbon-neutral state by using offsets or putting photovoltaic cells on top of the Pope Paul VI audience hall because he also uses an airplane for transportation on some occasions, well, he’s your leader who is supposed to be the guide to Catholic behavior and morality

ncrcafe.org/node/1241

Again, I don’t believe that every issue in the world is all or nothing. One could just as easily say “I know that my $5 in the collection plate will not pay all the expenses of this parish, much less benefit anyone in need elsewhere, so I might as well not bother.”

 

[estesbob]

.

[The Catholic Migrant Farmworker Network seems concerned
http://www.cmfn.org/issues.htm l

I didn’t see anything in there about hosts and altar wine. Is this organization officially sanctioned by the Vatican?

**Pesticides **
*The Environmental Protection Agency estimates that 300,000 farmworkers suffer acute pesticide poisoning each year. *

While making hosts?

If you are saying that you believe the Pope is hypocritical in talking about environmental issues or the Vatican becoming the first carbon-neutral state by using offsets or putting photovoltaic cells on top of the Pope Paul VI audience hall because he also uses an airplane for transportation on some occasions, well, he’s your leader who is supposed to be the guide to Catholic behavior and morality

The Pope has spoken on the proper way to obtain hosts and altar wine?

Again, I don’t believe that every issue in the world is all or nothing. One could just as easily say “I know that my $5 in the collection plate will not pay all the expenses of this parish, much less benefit anyone in need elsewhere, so I might as well not bother.”

Of the issues facing the church this has got to be in the bottom million.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If you are saying that you believe the Pope is hypocritical in talking about environmental issues or the Vatican becoming the first carbon-neutral state by using offsets or putting photovoltaic cells on top of the Pope Paul VI audience hall because he also uses an airplane for transportation on some occasions, well, he’s your leader who is supposed to be the guide to Catholic behavior and morality

Actually, it was Al Gore I had in mind. His home is **not **carbon-neutral.

 

[estesbob]

Actually, it was Al Gore I had in mind. His home is **not **carbon-neutral.

Of course it is he buys indulgences(sorry I mean carbon credits) to make sure it’s carbon neutral

 

[KarenNC]

I didn’t see anything in there about hosts and altar wine. Is this organization officially sanctioned by the Vatican?

Well, it “operates with the support and collaboration of the Office for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Refugees of the U.S. Catholic Conference” and has since 1986.

While making hosts?

Migrant workers help to harvest both wheat and grapes. Pesticides are used in growing both wheat and grapes. If you don’t know the source of the wheat and grapes used in the hosts and altar wine, then, yes, it is entirely possible that there are migrant workers being exposed to pesticides while harvesting wheat and grapes that go on to become part of altar bread and wine.

Of the issues facing the church this has got to be in the bottom million.

Possibly. I don’t recall seeing it presented as the most burning issue facing the Church today, simply something that was offered for consideration. That doesn’t make it less worthy of discussion in an individual parish than whether one should buy a new carpet for the parish hall or some of the threads on this overall forum. Personally I can see an argument that it may be a more important issue than whether a teenager is committing a sin by taking out the trash on Sunday when his parents ask him to do so, for instance.

 

[KarenNC]

Actually, it was Al Gore I had in mind. His home is **not **carbon-neutral.

Is someone suggesting Al Gore as a model for Catholic ethical behavior? Last I heard he was a Baptist.

 

[KarenNC]

Of course it is he buys indulgences(sorry I mean carbon credits) to make sure it’s carbon neutral

Well, if it’s good enough for the Vatican…

cathnews.com/news/707/76.php

 

[vern_humphrey]

Is someone suggesting Al Gore as a model for Catholic ethical behavior? Last I heard he was a Baptist.

Some people serve as good examples, and some serve as bad examples.

 

[KarenNC]

Some people serve as good examples, and some serve as bad examples.

Ah, then the Pope talking about environmental issues while using an airplane and signing a contract to use carbon offsets to balance the energy used by the Vatican would fall into which category?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ah, then the Pope talking about environmental issues while using an airplane and signing a contract to use carbon offsets to balance the energy used by the Vatican would fall into which category?

Since the Vatican actually achieved carbon-neutral status, and Al Gore hasn’t, I think His Holiness is pretty safe.