Ephesians 5:22....revisited

[RedSoxWife]

Is this only addressed to females?

Is this only addressed to females?

Nope. But Saint Paul’s admonishment to submit as Christ submitted to the Church was. Men will certainly face their own opportunities, as we all are, to submit and sacrifice themselves. And look at the sacrifice they’re being called to be ready to make. Because we’re equal but different, we’ll be called to submit in different ways.

The thing is at an impasse he’s pretty clear on how things should be resolved. Does Christ take advice on how to order creation from the Church?

 

[RedSoxWife]

I just wanted to add: It’s not like this issue even comes up very often. I think it’s come up less than three times in our five years of marriage. Most issues, at least in our case, can be worked out through discussion. Husbands should listen to what their wives have to say. But when consensus can’t be reached, and someone has to make the call, well… it is nice to have Biblical advice on how to overcome that sort of a problem.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I just wanted to add: It’s not like this issue even comes up very often. I think it’s come up less than three times in our five years of marriage. Most issues, at least in our case, can be worked out through discussion. Husbands should listen to what their wives have to say. But when consensus can’t be reached, and someone has to make the call, well… it is nice to have Biblical advice on how to overcome that sort of a problem.

It’s good that it’s happened less than three times for you.

But realize the logical ramifications here: “husband and wife are equal partners, except when husband doesn’t want to be.*”

“Separate, but equal,” indeed. Another one you might recall: “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

• = with exclusions for commands to commit sinful behavior.

RedSoxWife:

Nope.

So the behavior that you condemned so heartily in your previous post goes from bad to good based solely on gender? It doesn’t sound universal, but aesthetic.

 

[severus68]

Is this only addressed to females?

Is this only addressed to females?

Yes, it would appear women must be the the ones to sacrifice, to not insist on their rights etc so that would mean that there are no male saints or are there? Working backwards, There is JPII hopefully soon to be canonised and I will go straight to St Francis of Asissi who refused to lord over St Clare. Many other male saint too.

 

[RedSoxWife]

It’s good that it’s happened less than three times for you.

But realize the logical ramifications here: “husband and wife are equal partners, except when husband doesn’t want to be.*”

“Separate, but equal,” indeed. Another one you might recall: “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

• = with exclusions for commands to commit sinful behavior.

So the behavior that you condemned so heartily in your previous post goes from bad to good based solely on gender? It doesn’t sound universal, but aesthetic.

Equal doesn’t mean the same. This is echoed throughout Church teaching. Secular society rejects it. And I don’t think comparing humans to animals is apt.

Submitting when we don’t want to most certainly can be good for our soul. If you recall, Jesus speaks a bit about authority and where it comes from. In this case the order in this relationship is biblically given. So we submit to that which has been given authority.

Thankfully the husband is also given the instruction to be like Christ. This can become difficult, with a husband who doesn’t follow this command. Unfortunately someone else not living up to their standard, does not free us from our own call to do what is right. Of course there are limits and we are not expected to withstand abuse. But a disagreement? I think we most certainly can be expected to sacrifice our own desires, even as our husband would be expected to sacrifice his life.

It’s quite universal. Let’s not pretend that we’re all called to serve God in the same way. His plan for each of us is unique.

 

[RedSoxWife]

Yes, it would appear women must be the the ones to sacrifice, to not insist on their rights etc so that would mean that there are no male saints or are there? Working backwards, There is JPII hopefully soon to be canonised and I will go straight to St Francis of Asissi who refused to lord over St Clare. Many other male saint too.

Men are called on to make sacrifices too. But not always in the same way. My husband has sacrificed over and over again for his family. Let’s not pretend that we’re all called to submit or sacrifice in the same way.

John Paul the Great understood that while we were equal we were not the same. That’s very clear in the document you quote.

If we were all saints we wouldn’t need any sort of instructions, would we? Because we’d already be perfected. But being as we are, having not already perfectly overcome our own human desires, Saint Paul’s words are more than a little helpful.

And so a husband will find himself called to submit his will in different situations than his wife may be.

Go ahead and twist my words. That’s most certainly what has already been done with the first post. But don’t you think it’s a little odd that Saint Paul gave us these words if they’re just supposed to be discarded out of hand? And that Church teachings have reiterated over and over again that while we are equal in value we have different purposes? Not all teachings are easy. Sainthood isn’t easy. But it’s most certainly worth putting aside our willful desire to rule over others and enforce our will, when that authority has not been given to us (although to another it has been, as part of God’s plan for their salvation).

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Go ahead and twist my words. That’s most certainly what has already been done with the first post. But don’t you think it’s a little odd that Saint Paul gave us these words if they’re just supposed to be discarded out of hand?

Honestly, no. This is far less objectionable than St. Paul’s call for slaves to obey their masters.

In any event, I’m glad to see that you don’t focus solely on a woman’s obligations in marriage.

 

[bmullins]

I do know that there are times though that when it comes down to it and we can’t agree (my wife and I, which is very rare) that I don’t always make the deciding vote. As I said before, being the head means submitting as well. While Christ is indeed the head of the church, he submitted to his disciples in ways that many of us would have trouble doing this day. Imagine the king of the universe washing your feet? How much of a submission is that? Imagine how John felt when Jesus came to him and asked to be baptized, John even spoke out against it.

Yes, I agree that there are different sacrifices to be made. I still stand by my earlier post that we cannot exclude the previous verse. How do you get rid of verse 21 and only focus on 22?

[bibledrb]Ephesians 5:21[/bibledrb]

Submitting yourselves one to another. Not just one to the other, but one to another.

 

[RedSoxWife]

Honestly, no. This is far less objectionable than St. Paul’s call for slaves to obey their masters.

In any event, I’m glad to see that you don’t focus solely on a woman’s obligations in marriage.

 

[RedSoxWife]

I think it’s a bit unfair to indicate that she is focusing solely on the woman’s role in marriage. As a female she has a unique perspective of what it means to be a wife and to do so as a devout Catholic. That’s an experience that I as a man cannot speak for. I have never been a Catholic wife. I do know that there are times though that when it comes down to it and we can’t agree (my wife and I, which is very rare) that I don’t always make the deciding vote. As I said before, being the head means submitting as well. While Christ is indeed the head of the church, he submitted to his disciples in ways that many of us would have trouble doing this day. Imagine the king of the universe washing your feet? How much of a submission is that? Imagine how John felt when Jesus came to him and asked to be baptized, John even spoke out against it.

Yes, I agree that there are different sacrifices to be made. I still stand by my earlier post that we cannot exclude the previous verse. How do you get rid of verse 21 and only focus on 22?

[bibledrb]Ephesians 5:21[/bibledrb]

Submitting yourselves one to another. Not just one to the other, but one to another.

You’ve made some great points. One thing that kept popping into my head is that we are expected to submit, but not necessarily to the same people if that makes sense?

So a nun with submit to the authority of her mother superior. Her mother superior has the authority in the convent. She isn’t expected to submit to her nuns.

A priest is expected to submit to his bishop. The bishop is the shepherd and doesn’t submit to his flock. This doesn’t mean that he’s wrong. The bishop in turn submits to the authority of the Church, for that is the authority that he hold is above him.

We’ve seen plenty of examples of saints who dealt with persecutions and accusations of people who were in authority above them… and rather than insisting that they were right (when they were) we usually see them submitting to their bishop and not saying a word (Saint Gerard would be a good example… Padre Pio also comes to mind). Even though they were so holy and so right!

I’ll freely admit that this isn’t easy for me. I have insisted on my way. I’m sure I probably will again at some point. But that doesn’t mean I was right to do so. I can think of a particular time when we should have moved a few hundred miles and I was scared of the uncertainty of the move and refused. I was totally wrong to do so. DH was doing what he believed what was right for our family after months of prayer. I did get a chance at a re-do though… that took us from California to Florida. And this time around I was able to overcome the fear of moving far from family and home, during a very difficult time, and follow my husband’s lead.

I imagine I’ll always have trouble following this command. I’m sure most of us do. It’s not easy putting ourselves aside for someone else. So while we are to submit to one another, there’s also an order to that. It doesn’t mean that a husband can’t give in too (I know mine does without being asked, because he loves me!). Only that when push comes to shove there is a line of authority that Saint Paul makes clear.

At least that’s how I’ve come to understand it!

 

[LightBound]

I do know that there are times though that when it comes down to it and we can’t agree (my wife and I, which is very rare) that I don’t always make the deciding vote. As I said before, being the head means submitting as well. While Christ is indeed the head of the church, he submitted to his disciples in ways that many of us would have trouble doing this day. Imagine the king of the universe washing your feet? How much of a submission is that? Imagine how John felt when Jesus came to him and asked to be baptized, John even spoke out against it.

Yes, I agree that there are different sacrifices to be made. I still stand by my earlier post that we cannot exclude the previous verse. How do you get rid of verse 21 and only focus on 22?

[bibledrb]Ephesians 5:21[/bibledrb]

Submitting yourselves one to another. Not just one to the other, but one to another.

And that sums up what I stated in the opening post. When you read all the verses, you’ll see it’s circular - it leads right back to submit to each other. I mistakenly used the word “equal footing” and others took that and ran with it (did I really expect otherwise ) to prove their misunderstood point of “wife must submit, husband has final say no matter what” that they are quite obsessed with. What I was getting at (and stand firmly by, so others please don’t spin your wheels beating a dead horse) is that it comes full circle…the admonishment to submit to each other…wife to husband, then husband back to wife (if he gives up his own desires for his wife, as St Paul instructed), then you are back to mutual submission. I guess some people just truly lack the capacity to fully read that chapter of Ephesians and understand it. That being said…I’m outta here!

 

[RedSoxWife]

And that sums up what I stated in the opening post. When you read all the verses, you’ll see it’s circular - it leads right back to submit to each other. I mistakenly used the word “equal footing” and others took that and ran with it (did I really expect otherwise ) to prove their misunderstood point of “wife must submit, husband has final say no matter what” that they are quite obsessed with. What I was getting at (and stand firmly by, so others please don’t spin your wheels beating a dead horse) is that it comes full circle…the admonishment to submit to each other…wife to husband, then husband back to wife (if he gives up his own desires for his wife, as St Paul instructed), then you are back to mutual submission. I guess some people just truly lack the capacity to fully read that chapter of Ephesians and understand it.

It’s not that we lack the capacity (which let’s face it is more than a little insulting) it’s that in light of two thousand years of teaching we understand that it says something a bit more nuanced than you’re insisting. In other words (in a overly simplified version), a husband does give up his life, but that doesn’t mean that he isn’t the spiritual head of the household and shouldn’t be leading his family.

 

[mini_me640]

And that sums up what I stated in the opening post. When you read all the verses, you’ll see it’s circular - it leads right back to submit to each other. I mistakenly used the word “equal footing” and others took that and ran with it (did I really expect otherwise ) to prove their misunderstood point of “wife must submit, husband has final say no matter what” that they are quite obsessed with. What I was getting at (and stand firmly by, so others please don’t spin your wheels beating a dead horse) is that it comes full circle…the admonishment to submit to each other…wife to husband, then husband back to wife (if he gives up his own desires for his wife, as St Paul instructed), then you are back to mutual submission. I guess some people just truly lack the capacity to fully read that chapter of Ephesians and understand it. That being said…I’m outta here!

To suggest that those who follow what the Church has taught for 2000 years lack the capacity to understand the verses in question is both insulting and absurd. If that is the case then numerous vicars of Christ have lacked the capacity to understand it as well. No, I would argue that some have difficulty understanding how mutual submission does not mean the same type of submission and how husbands and wives can be equal in dignity and importance while filling different roles.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I haven’t read all the posts, but I remember a beautiful short story called the "Gift of the Magi’ BY O. Henry.

That short story is a lovely illustration of how married love should be, both husband and wife gave up their cherished item to buy a gift for the other.

 

[severus68]

I haven’t read all the posts, but I remember a beautiful short story called the "Gift of the Magi’ BY O. Henry.

That short story is a lovely illustration of how married love should be, both husband and wife gave up their cherished item to buy a gift for the other.

That is a beautiful story and exemplifies all sacrifice out of love.

 

[mini_me640]

I haven’t read all the posts, but I remember a beautiful short story called the "Gift of the Magi’ BY O. Henry.

That short story is a lovely illustration of how married love should be, both husband and wife gave up their cherished item to buy a gift for the other.

This is something we can all (probably) agree on !

 

[mini_me640]

I haven’t read all the posts, but I remember a beautiful short story called the "Gift of the Magi’ BY O. Henry.

That short story is a lovely illustration of how married love should be, both husband and wife gave up their cherished item to buy a gift for the other.

Yes, it would appear women must be the the ones to sacrifice, to not insist on their rights etc so that would mean that there are no male saints or are there? Working backwards, There is JPII hopefully soon to be canonised and I will go straight to St Francis of Asissi who refused to lord over St Clare. Many other male saint too.

Husbands are called to tremendous sacrifices for their wives, can you not see that? His whole life is to be a sacrifice for his wife as Christ sacrificed for the Church. It isnt about a husband always getting what he wants over what his wife wants, it is about the husband leading his wife and family toward holiness and toward what is best for them. This will likely mean the husband sacrifices his own desires more than he gets them.

Also, Saints Francis and Clare were not married, so their relationship is irrelevant. Men are not given authority over women; husbands are given authority over their wives (to be exercised for the good of his wife, not for his selfish desires). Also, husbands should not “lord over” their wives in any way. The fact that some have misused the authority is it’s own issue.

 

[severus68]

Husbands are called to tremendous sacrifices for their wives, can you not see that? His whole life is to be a sacrifice for his wife as Christ sacrificed for the Church. It isnt about a husband always getting what he wants over what his wife wants, it is about the husband leading his wife and family toward holiness and toward what is best for them

At least one person here would disagree with you that men have not been given authority over women.
Ou current Catechism is comprehensive. All doctrine is clearly set out. We can read moreto understand more. There is a section on marriage but nowhere is it stated that wives should submit to their husbands. I would ask why this has been ‘miissedout’ if it is Church doctrine.

 

[mini_me640]

At least one person here would disagree with you that men have not been given authority over women.
Ou current Catechism is comprehensive. All doctrine is clearly set out. We can read moreto understand more. There is a section on marriage but nowhere is it stated that wives should submit to their husbands. I would ask why this has been ‘miissedout’ if it is Church doctrine.

Just because a particular person thinks that men have authority over women does not mean that’s what most of us who believe in male headship in marriage think. It is completely irrelevant to the discussion. I have a neighbor who thinks Elvis is still alive. So what?

The Catechism is comprehensive, not exhaustive. You can look through numerous Papal Encyclicals such as Castii Connubi to see what the Church has taught over the years.

 

[L_piperatus]

Repeating a wrong over many years does not make it right. Some can refer to a sixteenth century Catechism etc. II refer to our current Catechism and to the beloved John Paul II.

Divinely ordained authority of a husband over his wife? I know Christ said “On this rock I build my Church” regarding Peter and his successors.Christ did not tap l his apostles on the shoulder and give them authority over all women.

This is the particular post that I think most accurately and succinctly captures your error Severus. Yout state that “repeating a wrong over many years does not make it right.” The “wrong” you were referring to is the Church teaching on the duties of husbands and wives. As I understand you, you believe the Church taught wrongly, that is in error, about the authority of a husband in the family for most of its history, and that as of Blessed John Paul II has finally figured it out.

Is that a fair summary of your view?

That post by Severus68 also made me scratch my head. The post is promoting an erroneous view according to which the Church has been wrong, and the Catechism of Trent has been wrong. It also seems to infer, together with other posts by the same poster, that parts of the New Testament written by St. Paul are in error, and do not have the same authority as the Gospels recording the words of Christ.

On the contrary to these erroneous views presented by Severus68, the letters of St. Paul and St. Peter in the New Testament, dealing with the duties of husbands and wives, quoted by FatherOfTwelve in post #98, are still valid. Likewise, all the explanations and admonishments given by the Catechism of Trent, by Popes Leo XIII (Arcanum), Pius XI (Casti Connubii), and John Paul II (Dignitatis Mulhieris) remain valid.

Catholic Answers Forums is a Catholic website and we should all strive to keep it Catholic by quoting the teachings of the Catholic Church correctly, rather than promoting personal opinions that are in conflict with the teachings of the Catholic Church.