Eradicating White Supremacy in the Church in America

[steido01]

How many people think their mom or their dad is the ‘best’? Larger groups are just an extension of this. It isn’t inherently bad to think this. In fact it is somewhat off putting to encounter people who completely disparage their people and culture.

I don’t find fault with Africans or anyone else for preferring their culture. But for some reason as a White person I’m not allowed to prefer my culture.

Let’s chat about this. Firstly, things inherent to the individual cannot be applied to a group, because the group is not the individual. Your dad was only dad to you, not the group. For example:
God made you your dad’s kid; your dad was the best dad for you.
God made you white; your skin color was the best skin color for you.
Should you then go on to say, “My dad is the best dad, period!” you’d be wrong.
Should you then go on to say, “My skin color is the best skin color, period!” you’d be wrong.

Secondly, the color of one’s skin is not synonymous with one’s culture. To the Christian, there is only one culture, found in Christ. To the Christian, there is only one race and it is “human.” Skin color, nation of origin, worldly culture – these things are secondary to the Christian because they have no bearing whatsoever on the only thing that matters. White, black, brown, yellow, red - all are one in Christ.

 

[Annie]

i guess that to me, the word supremacy implies a sense of superiority that grants one more power; so in the US, this would be exemplified by a white man who thinks African-Americans are not as evolved and therefore beneath him, that he is somehow inherently better than they are the way humans are better than slugs, or Rolls Royces than Pintos.

That to me is different from what for most people in the world is the normal state of simply being in their culture and in the US, taking an interest in one’s heritage.

At the same time, I don’t think that simple interest equates to supremacy, either. I am somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of maintaining some sort of racial purity… that is just focusing on the wrong thing altogether–skin color, height, eye color, ear shape, what difference does any of that make?

 

[Annie]

Sorry, i jumped into the wrong place.

Your question to Arkansan is a good one, about why he thinks that way.

 

[Apache75]

This person seems to be playing games here. Ive had my fair share of people like him/her. From the comments posted, this person is all about the white race. Doesn’t want inter-racial marriage and to keep their genes pure. Sounds like they should have been born in 1940’s Germany. So I guess my profile pic really makes them mad!!!

 

[exnihilo]

Sure, the Compromise was agreed to on population/representation grounds, but Abolitionist motives were the driving factor behind it

I’m sorry but that doesn’t make much sense. What does the number of representatives a state has have to do with abolition? It was the slave states that wanted slaves counted fully as persons. It was the non slave states that didn’t want them counted at all.

 

[exnihilo]

God made you your dad’s kid; your dad was the best dad for you.

That doesn’t mean my dad can’t actually be a better dad than some other dad. There really are objectively better and worse dads. Regardless of whether my dad is actually a good dad or not there is a certain affinity to him simply because he is my dad. The same goes for the rest of the family, my immediate neighbors, my town, my state and so on.

To the Christian, there is only one culture, found in Christ.

No. There are many cultures. Unity in Christ doesn’t mean there are no distinctions.

Skin color, nation of origin, worldly culture – these things are secondary to the Christian because they have no bearing whatsoever on the only thing that matters.

Not exactly. Culture makes a difference because some cultures are more Christian than others. For instance the US was a Christian culture and now the anti Christians are making it an anti Christian culture. It is very important that my culture, a Christian culture, be maintained.

 

[steido01]

I’m sorry but that doesn’t make much sense. What does the number of representatives a state has have to do with abolition? It was the slave states that wanted slaves counted fully as persons. It was the non slave states that didn’t want them counted at all.

Look, opponents of slavery wanted only free people to count in representation, true. But the reasoning here is important and we should not flip the script to make things seem as though it was the abolitionists, and not the slave-owners, who treated others inhumanely. Slave states only wanted slaves to count as people when it suited them (i.e. when it came to representation), not when it was to their detriment (i.e. when it came to paying taxes and treating humans as humans). Abolitionists essentially said, “If you aren’t going to treat people like people, you don’t get the benefits as if you did.” The anti-slavery motivation is well-documented.

This sidebar is for a different thread.

 

[steido01]

That doesn’t mean my dad can’t actually be a better dad than some other dad. There really are objectively better and worse dads.

You really want to go down the road of stating that some skin colors are objectively better than others?

Regardless of whether my dad is actually a good dad or not there is a certain affinity to him simply because he is my dad. The same goes for the rest of the family, my immediate neighbors, my town, my state and so on.

That is human. That is understandable. It is not what Christ taught. This is precisely what made the Good Samaritan such a scandal to the Pharisees!

There are many cultures. Unity in Christ doesn’t mean there are no distinctions.

I never said it didn’t. I said those distinctions are secondary. They are window dressing. How the Latin Church dresses and worships is not objectively better or worse than how the Ukranian Greek Catholic Church dresses or worships. They are, ultimately, one in Christ. Christ is the culture.

Culture makes a difference because some cultures are more Christian than others.

Oh? I’d love to see a ranking of which cultures are most Christian, from most to least.

For instance the US was a Christian culture and now the anti Christians are making it an anti Christian culture. It is very important that my culture, a Christian culture, be maintained.

The US has never had a Christian culture. The Christians within it have certainly had a larger platform for displaying their piety in public than in other countries. I’ll even grant that Zeitgeist has, at one time or another, promoted certain Christian beliefs and practices while incorporating them into the American Civic Religion. But to confuse this Civic Religion with Christianity is a horrendous heresy.

 

[exnihilo]

You really want to go down the road of stating that some skin colors are objectively better than others?

You are the only person who has mentioned skin color.

That is human. That is understandable. It is not what Christ taught. This is precisely what made the Good Samaritan such a scandal to the Pharisees!

Christ didn’t say that we should have no affinity for our family. That is frankly absurd. He did say we shouldn’t ignore those in need outside of our groups.

I never said it didn’t. I said those distinctions are secondary. They are window dressing. How the Latin Church dresses and worships is not objectively better or worse than how the Ukranian Greek Catholic Church dresses or worships. They are, ultimately, one in Christ. Christ is the culture.

No, some liturgical dress and worship can be objectively better.

Oh? I’d love to see a ranking of which cultures are most Christian, from most to least.

Why do you need a ranking to understand a simple truth? You really don’t think Christians in Muslim culture aren’t being killed because of their faith?

The US has never had a Christian culture. The Christians within it have certainly had a larger platform for displaying their piety in public than in other countries. I’ll even grant that Zeitgeist has, at one time or another, promoted certain Christian beliefs and practices while incorporating them into the American Civic Religion. But to confuse this Civic Religion with Christianity is a horrendous heresy.

Not true at all. Christianity pervades our culture. It pervades our legal system. I’m not talking about religiousity but how people view the world and things like justice. There really is a difference in countries where morality is informed by Christian principles and those where it is not. If that weren’t so then Christianity wouldn’t be much of a religion. If Christianity doesn’t improve the world then it is a lie.

 

[Arkansan]

Arkansan:

The poster I was replying to claimed that “white supremacist” groups are common and go around inflicting violence on people.

I think I know the poster fairly well, and I don’t believe he ever said white supremacist groups are common and go around inflicting violence on people. I believe what he did say was that white nationalist/separatist thought is common, as is evidenced in this thread.

Best to actually read posts before commenting on them:

What does the title of this post say? So any group that falls into the “White Supremacy” group. Don’t act daft about what groups. I even included non-white groups there also. Any group that causes or calls for violence towards a group of people they deem inferior.

Arkansan:

Most white Americans are too mixed to identify with any given European ethnicity.

“Too mixed,” huh? When an object is described as having “too ______” it means that it’s excessive, that it’s not desirable. Are you saying that “mixing” cultures, marriages, families, ethnicities is undesirable? Your preference would be for limited or no “mixing,” then?

Intermarriage between different ethnic groups should be minimized since it tends to destroy both if it becomes common.

But the comment you quoted was obviously descriptive rather than prescriptive. Most white Americans are too mixed to consider themselves as German, Irish, French, etc. Thus “white American” is their ethnic identity.

This isn’t to say that “white” people shouldn’t have cultural pride. But seeing fellow human beings as “other” and as a threat to your survival only serves to dehumanize.

Members of other groups are “other” by definition. It is true that them being perceived as a threat to one’s own group’s survival can cause hostility, but the solution is to avoid situations where such a perception is correct (i.e. mass migration), not to pretend that demographic facts are not true.

 

[steido01]

Intermarriage between different ethnic groups should be minimized since it tends to destroy both if it becomes common.

I think your views have finally been exposed for what they are.

‘Separate but equal’ is not Christian.

I’m done conversing here.

 

[Arkansan]

Just insulting an idea doesn’t make it wrong. It just shows that the one doing the insulting cannot rationally refute it.

 

[Annie]

It seems to me that you are saying that white Americans as white should be somehow preserved. This is odd to me, because as an American myself, I think we should all become and accept each other as Americans. I don’t think it should matter if our ancestors or even parents came from Uganda or Thailand or Italy or Peru or Korea or Yemen or…

I like the melting pot idea and see the salad bowl metaphor as not really working out. We have had generations of people coming here from all over and working it out so we lived together, aside from the difficulties the descendants of slaves and other black people have had here (with which I disagree).

I don’t really understand what you are trying to preserve and/or why you advocate that.

 

[mh2007]

Supremacy takes many forms. In the Church, it is most clearly a male supremacy. It is promulgated (like it or not) by a male dominated hierarchy justified by the concept of ‘Apostolic succession.’ The Church was organized at a time in human development when women were precluded from leadership roles at all levels. It’s a shame that 50% of the human talent throughout the ages has been ignored or considered inferior. The solution is women in the role of priests and bishops, however the bureaucracy is not inclined to permit that. Again, suppressing 50% of the human talent available. Something to pray for, indeed. That recognition will come some day, or religions with women clergy will increase in numbers, especially in advanced countries.

 

[Arkansan]

White Americans have a separate identity and to a large extent a different culture from other groups. So if e.g. the country comes to be dominated by Hispanics, it is very unlikely that they will identify with the current American majority (and why would they). It seems obvious that people should want their descendants to identify with them.

 

[ChunkMonk]

The Church was organized at a time in human development when women were precluded from leadership roles at all levels.

I’ll take “Who was Cleopatra?” for $200

 

[Arkansan]

You don’t suppose that feminists care about facts, do you?

 

[Annie]

I guess I think that your idea is too simplistic. I don’t think the majority culture is per se “white,” first, there are many strains, esp in the arts and sports, which come from non-whites or non–Northern Europeans. The Southwest certainly had people from a wider range of places than the East Coast did.

But more importantly, I think that the majority culture is one that people can assimilate into, and I think that is a good feature.

Throughout our history we have faced fears that immigrants were going to move the culture in the wrong direction, but so far, most of the moving in the wrong direction has been done without their help; we managed it on our own.

And the other thing we have seen is assimilation into the majority culture, generally by the third generation. On the way, some really good food is added to our palate, but that is the major change.

A lot of the current friction is caused by our own home-grown SJWs.

 

[Arkansan]

And the other thing we have seen is assimilation into the majority culture, generally by the third generation.

You’re ignoring the issue of identity. Blacks have been living here for as long as we have and they still do not identify with us. I fail to see any evidence that the majority of Hispanics or Asians do either.

It’s true that some cultural assimilation occurs, but continuity of identity (future generations using the word “we” in reference to America’s history) is arguably more important than cultural continuity.

 

[Annie]

And I did mention them as an exception, didn’t I? However, those of African descent in Brazil were much more accepted and are well-assimilated there, whereas in the US, the reason black people are not as well-assimilated is has more to do with other factors, one of which has to do with lack of acceptance by many white people.

I am not exactly sure how people of other descents could show how they identify as Americans?