Eradicating White Supremacy in the Church in America

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Annie said:
I am not exactly sure how people of other descents could show how they identify as Americans?
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Here’s a good way to explain it:

When someone says that we should be ashamed of slavery, who does the word “we” refer to?
 
I’ve heard plenty of Brazillions describe the ‘dark-skin/light-skin’ dynamic slightly differently.
 
Annie said:
Throughout our history we have faced fears that immigrants were going to move the culture in the wrong direction, but so far, most of the moving in the wrong direction has been done without their help; we managed it on our own.

And the other thing we have seen is assimilation into the majority culture, generally by the third generation. On the way, some really good food is added to our palate, but that is the major change.
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Throughout most of our history immigrants have come from countries on par with the US. Now they come from countries that aren’t.

In the past people were free to exert social pressure on groups that didn’t assimilate. Now you can’t and it is even illegal. There is no reason why modern immigrants can’t form a secondary culture within ours and refuse to assimilate. We see it already with all the Spanish language signs.

So we really can’t compare past immigration with current.
 
Good question! Whom ought it to refer? But to whom does it refer?

As I mentioned, African-Americans are the one group which has not assimilated well. And so there are the two groups in the US in that respect. But how is it that the assimilation did not take place? Not because black people were trying to maintain their heritage, but because whites were trying to maintain their dominance. In between segregated facilities and red-lining, the law “kept black people in their place.” Is that a part of white culture you want to maintain?

For me, I think the US culture should be open to all. I also think that all should be allowed in, not forbidden entry. At the same time, we also need to realize that it is a process.

And I agree that we should maintain and improve our American culture and not allow it to be subverted by others.
 
You completely missed the point. I was replying to your claim that people of other groups (not white or black) identify with the historical American nation. So, who does the word “we” in statements like “we should be ashamed of slavery” refer to? Chinese Americans?

Obviously, only white Americans are expected to feel ashamed of the bad acts in American history. This is because only they fully identify with the historical America.
 
So what? The fact that most of the few slave owners in our history were white doesn’t mean we should preserve “white” culture or heritage for white people any more than does the fact that most of the Revolutionary fighters, Founding Fathers, Union military were white does.

Check this out: a Brit from 10,000 years ago had black skin and blue eyes, as determined by DNA: 'Cheddar Man' DNA shows early Britons had dark skin

You seem to think skin color makes some sort of difference. Why?
 
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I’d say look to the source of the article. There are certain sites that I’d not put too much faith in.

I guess my thought is this: at some point, just about every ethnicity got the short end of the stick.

Arkansan: there were black slave owners, American Indian slave owners, etc.
 
Annie said:
So what?
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So my point, that non-white groups in the US have a different collective identity than whites is correct. That whites who didn’t have any slave-owning ancestors still consider themselves part of the same group that practiced slavery further demonstrates my point.

I use a case where our collective memory is one of shame because it easily demonstrates the point, but the same is true of good aspects of out identity.
Check this out: a Brit from 10,000 years ago had black skin and blue eyes, as determined by DNA: 'Cheddar Man' DNA shows early Britons had dark skin
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And now, due to mass migration, his descendants have no connection to him.
 
steido01 said:
I never said it didn’t. I said those distinctions are secondary. They are window dressing. How the Latin Church dresses and worships is not objectively better or worse than how the Ukranian Greek Catholic Church dresses or worships. They are, ultimately, one in Christ. Christ is the culture.
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Frankly, I find your use of the word “culture” confused and unhelpful with regard to settling the issue.

There are, first off, a number of definitions of the word ‘culture’ which come into play and add ambiguity to your claims. It isn’t clear which meaning you have in mind when you distinguish, for example, Christian culture from other cultures.

One reason this is problematic is that other cultures often have religious elements in them, so to speak of Christian culture as a kind of epitome – Christ is the culture – almost by definition creates a competitive hierarchy with those cultures where other religious belief systems are integral to them. That implies a denigration or subordination of those cultures to Christian culture.

Perhaps that underlies what appears to be the mistaken assumption that white culture is somewhat historically synonymous with Christian culture.

This is where the ambiguity in your use of the word ‘culture’ creates the problem rather than resolves it.

If we assume the broadest definition of the word as “the sum total of the ways of living of a group of people,” then it might be true that Christianity, Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, Mormonism, or any religion, is a ‘culture,’ in that sense. But that also pits every culture and religion against Christianity or Catholicism, and your claim that “Christ is THE culture” would seem to make you a Christ supremacist, instead of a white supremacist. Still problematic.

You did try to mitigate that a bit by claiming cultural trappings are secondary, but that still implies a competition in terms of the trappings manifest in Christian culture as opposed to those outside.

I suspect the only way of resolving the problem is to distinguish between essential metaphysical truths and accidental cultural traits, with the former having permanent value, but the latter being important (and not trivial) in an impermanent but contextual sense.

That allows the possibility that accidental cultural traits could be meaningful expressions of permanent metaphysical truths without being in direct competition with them. Ergo, metaphysical truths could be expressed in a variety of different, and equally valid ways in different cultures without those being in competition with each other in terms of validity. However, some cultural expressions might contravene or be antithetical to metaphysical truths. That would mean some cultural trappings could be shown to be inferior to others or even unacceptable for any culture.

The key would be to outline the metaphysical truths in order to properly compare cultures, rather than pit cultures against each other based solely on the superficial level of the differing cultural traits themselves.
 
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Arkansan said:
And now, due to mass migration, his descendants have no connection to him.
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I am not asking flippantly, but what difference does it make? Does he, or do now-living English lack something due to the loss of this connection?
 
Tower of Babel pretty clearly indicates God’s view of one culture, one language, one people while on Earth.

It’s not wrong to want distinct cultures to stay distinct.
 
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After thousands of years it’s inevitable and unobjectionable that such connections will be lacking.

But when such occurs in a period of centuries or even decades, it is a problem. People need a history to be part of. It’s enough for that history to go back 1000 years, it’s not enough for it to go back 50 years.
 
That would be a long answer. But we teach history in schools for a reason. I think adopted children who don’t know their parents are always wanting to know their history. There is a strong need to know history. Even a large portion of the Bible is dedicated to the history of a people. So it must be good to have a history.
 
I think the Tower of Babel was supposed to teach humanity not to attempt to reach Heaven by their own power? Never heard your theory before, nor is anyone here proposing one culture, one language, one people on Earth.
 
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It allows people to understand their place in the world. Without it people lack meaning and purpose.
 
I’m confused. I thought God gave us our meaning and purpose: God made us to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world?

And what is a person’s “place”? That is the sort of language used by the KKK and those who wanted to maintain the institution of slavery. Oooooo, don’t want any uppity black people here…

This is why what you are saying does not make sense to me. Maybe in the Middle Ages, when sons followed their fathers’ footsteps, more or less, but that is not the situation now. The point of what is now the US has always been that people forged their own places.
 
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Annie said:
I’m confused. I thought God gave us our meaning and purpose: God made us to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world?
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Yes . . . he put us in a particular situation, born of particular parents, in a particular country, etc.

Barring hermits, no one relates to God in a purely individual manner, separate from a particular society. And even hermits are spiritually dependent on the Church.
And what is a person’s “place”?
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The combination of all the factors that contribute to personal identity. IOW where you come from.
The point of what is now the US has always been that people forged their own places.
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That’s a very nice myth, but it’s just that, a myth.

People generally choose their own occupation, but most people don’t even choose their own political party, much less their own broader outlook on the world.
 
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