Eternal Universe

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Faith1960

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I startede talking about this on another thread but don’t want to hijack it so I’ll post it here instead.

A recent article below states that the universe may be eternal.
IF true, what would that mena for the existence of God? The Bible? Christianity? Our faith?
And why or why not?

phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html
 
Faith1960 said:
I startede talking about this on another thread but don’t want to hijack it so I’ll post it here instead.

A recent article below states that the universe may be eternal.
IF true, what would that mena for the existence of God? The Bible? Christianity? Our faith?
And why or why not?

phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html
Click to expand...
Oh yeah. I read that article. I read another article that quite contrary claim that our universe originate from a hyper-black hole formation. What is truth will be subject of investigation always.
 
Bahman said:
Oh yeah. I read that article. I read another article that quite contrary claim that our universe originate from a hyper-black hole formation. What is truth will be subject of investigation always.
Click to expand...
This article I posted was written just this month. If anyone can find something to rebut or debunk what it says, that was written after the article I posted, it would be greatly appreciated. I couldn’t find anything, but I’mg not the best googler.

Is your link addressing the same thing mine is? I’m confused. :confused:
 
If there really was never a time when nothing existed, that would seem to disagree with our understanding that God created all things.from nothing. At some point in time, He created the universe and everything in it.
But then again, if He created time itself, and God exists *outside *of time in an “eternal present,” what would creation seem like to us? Would it seem to have a beginning, or no beginning because time seems (to us) to go back forever?
It would probably take infinite knowledge to understand this, and I don’t have half that much.
An aside–science’s theory that the universe began at a certain time of the Big Bang, still seems to accept that everything did exist even before the Big Bang–within that “singularity.”
Peace.
John
 
Faith1960 said:
This article I posted was written just this month. If anyone can find something to rebut or debunk what it says, that was written after the article I posted, it would be greatly appreciated. I couldn’t find anything, but I’m not the best googler
Click to expand...
The article you cited is published in an well respected journal. You have to wait for scientific opinion. I am a physicist and to the best of my knowledge that manuscript sounds. We still don’t know a quantum theory of gravity though in which the singularity of big bang is resolved and we can see our origin.
 
Faith1960 said:
This article I posted was written just this month. If anyone can find something to rebut or debunk what it says, that was written after the article I posted, it would be greatly appreciated. I couldn’t find anything, but I’mg not the best googler.

Is your link addressing the same thing mine is? I’m confused. :confused:
Click to expand...
There are a few theories, nothing new, the big bang theory appears to be released premature.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCkQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.space.com%2F24781-big-bang-theory-alternatives-infographic.html&ei=i9rgVM_MF8GJNpGGgugF&usg=AFQjCNHdekBVJGjcm1F4f4RUz13DZKVqDA
 
IF the universe is eternal, then what happens to our faith? Is that it? The Bible would be wrong? God wouldn’t exist? Christianity would crumble?
 
Faith1960 said:
IF the universe is eternal, then what happens to our faith? Is that it? The Bible would be wrong? God wouldn’t exist? Christianity would crumble?
Click to expand...
Well, yes. What is wrong with throwing a wrong idea away!?
 
Bahman said:
Well, yes. What is wrong with throwing a wrong idea away!?
Click to expand...
Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater. The new theories need to be reviewed and tested. Even if they are proven valid, John Ennis’ point is correct, assuming God exists outside of time, then the truths of physics and theology don’t necessarily conflict.
 
Faith1960 said:
IF the universe is eternal, then what happens to our faith? Is that it? The Bible would be wrong? God wouldn’t exist? Christianity would crumble?
Click to expand...
Why?
Certainly Bahman’s question about “throwing away a wrong idea” is valid. You don’t want to believe something that isn’t true. God himself is truth.
But again, time itself being so beyond our understanding, is there any reason to think that an “eternal” universe was not created? Don’t we believe that time itself was created by God?
A distinctly different aspect of the whole unknowable matter: are we not finite creatures trying to understand infinity? Either we’re mortals trying to understand God, or products of an aimless random universe, trying hard to be unrandom and aimed.
Peace.
John
 
Antegin said:
Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater. The new theories need to be reviewed and tested. Even if they are proven valid, John Ennis’ point is correct, assuming God exists outside of time, then the truths of physics and theology don’t necessarily conflict.
Click to expand...
There is serious problem with God who is outside of time which is related to begging the very concept of beginning of creation if there is any beginning, otherwise, if there is not beginning, we don’t need any concept of God. How a being which is outside time can cause something which has a beginning?
 
How would science definitively conclude the universe didn’t have a beginning? Science could only (theoretically, since the consensus today is that the start was with the Big Bang) prove that it can’t say that the universe began, that its models can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint a moment when there was a start. Or maybe it could say that some of its models rely on the assumption that there was no beginning–and even that doesn’t need to impact the faith. To use an example ,the historical critical method of history relies on the assumption the world is relatively static. And that is ok, but it just has to realize its limitations wrt God’s interventions in history and so can’t be all embracing. Philosophy can’t prove the world had a beginning, and it makes no difference to our faith. Why would it be any different with science?
 
Bahman said:
There is serious problem with God who is outside of time which is related to begging the very concept of beginning of creation if there is any beginning, otherwise, if there is not beginning, we don’t need any concept of God. How a being which is outside time can cause something which has a beginning?
Click to expand...
You mean you don’t understand the concept of “outside of time?” You expect to?

Really, though. We are IN time; it’s impossible for us to imagine NO time. But why **reject **it? Even when you’ve ever mused about the universe not being “eternal,” and potentially having a beginning, didn’t you see that the question arose of “what was before that?” which again brings up the whole idea of “outside of time?”

You may call it begging the question, but it’s just as mysterious to think that the universe always was, and was never created, and all matter is eternal.

Like I said, whether we believe in God, or no god, we have to admit that we’re products of something which we have no RATIONAl reason to believe we can understand.
Peace.
John
 
john_ennis said:
You mean you don’t understand the concept of “outside of time?” You expect to?

Really, though. We are IN time; it’s impossible for us to imagine NO time. But why **reject **it? Even when you’ve ever mused about the universe not being “eternal,” and potentially having a beginning, didn’t you see that the question arose of “what was before that?” which again brings up the whole idea of “outside of time?”

You may call it begging the question, but it’s just as mysterious to think that the universe always was, and was never created, and all matter is eternal.

Like I said, whether we believe in God, or no god, we have to admit that we’re products of something which we have no RATIONAl reason to believe we can understand.
Peace.
John
Click to expand...
In fact I can imagine the very notion of timeless God. I just cannot put this God and a creation with a beginning in a same box because they are mutually exclusive. This is true because I need a reference point to define the beginning which differentiate absolutely nothing from something, so called the point of creation. God is however in state of timeless meaning that there is no after or before for him, in another point there is no reference point from God points of view, so I was wondering how the act creation is possible with timeless God.
 
Bahman said:
In fact I can imagine the very notion of timeless God. I just cannot put this God and a creation with a beginning in a same box because they are mutually exclusive. This is true because I need a reference point to define the beginning which differentiate absolutely nothing from something, so called the point of creation. God is however in state of timeless meaning that there is no after or before for him, in another point there is no reference point from God points of view, so I was wondering how the act creation is possible with timeless God.
Click to expand...
A timeless God and a creation with a beginning cannot be put in the same box because you “need a reference point?” Your and my need for something to help us understand, does not influence reality.

When you say “timeless,” do you simply mean eternal? Because when we say He exists outside of time, we mean something else. Time, literally, not existing.

I don’t understand that, but of course that doesn’t mean it’s illogical. We live with time, NO time is beyond us. “How” is the act of creation possible if God was outside of time? No one claims to understand how God could create anything, even an atom, so for me to explain to you how he created time, is hard.
Peace.
John
 
Antegin said:
Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater. The new theories need to be reviewed and tested. Even if they are proven valid, John Ennis’ point is correct, assuming God exists outside of time, then the truths of physics and theology don’t necessarily conflict.
Click to expand...
How don’t they conflict? Can you talk a little more about that?
 
Faith1960 said:
Tough what they’re talking about is new, a new model or whatever.
Click to expand...
String Theory is the model which has been being worked on.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dummies.com%2Fhow-to%2Fcontent%2Fthe-basic-elements-of-string-theory.html&ei=2xHhVIaYBsLbsASNnoDgBA&usg=AFQjCNHWo5A4s0H49foy3xc4_3kHczo4Dw

My theory is the matter they “assume” existed and really can’t be proven is energy. 🙂
Scientists hope that astronomical observations or experiments with particle accelerators will uncover some of these higher-energy supersymmetric particles, providing support for this prediction of string theory.
Click to expand...
 
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