Eternal Universe

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Faith1960 said:
It can’t be proven in time?
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Yes, but Thomas was arguing with the ancients on their own ground. But he was also skeptical that it could be demonstrated philosophically that the universe had a beginning in time and, therefore, he thought it better not to base his arguments which he felt could be viewed as absurd because they were based on an assumption that could not be proven.

Linus2nd
 
Faith1960 said:
IF the universe is eternal, then what happens to our faith? Is that it? The Bible would be wrong? God wouldn’t exist? Christianity would crumble?
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If God created the universe, then it follows necessarily that it has some kind of beginning. But that does not necessarily mean that it had a temporal beginning. The Bible is not a science book and so we have no basis to think that when God created the universe that it means creation in a temporal sense even if it is expressed that way.

When The Catholic church as a matter of theological dogma states that creation has a beginning, are they making a scientific statement as in to say this is what is true physically speaking? If not then how do we understand creation?

One way to understand it is to say that God actualised all potency; and therefore every physical state, even in an infinite regress, has a beginning to its existence.

I think first you need to find out what is Catholic Dogma actually saying when they say creation has a beginning. Are they simply speaking about Gods creative act in relation to the “existence of creation”, or are they placing themselves in the purview of science and arguing that it is a fact true that the “universe” as a whole has a beginning in time.

If they are literally saying that the universe has a beginning in time and that this belief is unchangeable dogma in principle, then obviously this puts the Church in a vulnerable position; for if it were found that the universe does not have a beginning in time, the faithful would have to choose between science and faith.

This is never a good thing for Christianity since science is a respected and well guarded measure of what is physically true. That is why so many atheist use science a weapon to beat the backside of Christianity.
 
ChainBreaker said:
If God created the universe, then it follows necessarily that it has some kind of beginning. But that does not necessarily mean that it had a temporal beginning. The Bible is not a science book and so we have no basis to think that when God created the universe that it means creation in a temporal sense even if it is expressed that way.

When The Catholic church as a matter of theological dogma states that creation has a beginning, are they making a scientific statement as in to say this is what is true physically speaking? If not then how do we understand creation?

One way to understand it is to say that God actualised all potency; and therefore every physical state, even in an infinite regress, has a beginning to its existence.

I think first you need to find out what is Catholic Dogma actually saying when they say creation has a beginning. Are they simply speaking about Gods creative act in relation to the “existence of creation”, or are they placing themselves in the purview of science and arguing that it is a fact true that the “universe” as a whole has a beginning in time.
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Does anyone know what the Church teaches about that?
 
Faith1960 said:
What if the DO find out the the universe is eternal? What about our faith?
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In a way, the universe HAS TO be eternal if the God of Christians is real, and it in no way affects Christian faith. God intends what he intends from all eternity and into all eternity. Nothing exists that is not in the Mind of God and has not always been in the Mind of God. Therefore, God intended the universe from all eternity. His intent is His act. What we 'DON’T know is exactly how He intended it or how, exactly, He actuated it.
 
Ridgerunner said:
In a way, the universe HAS TO be eternal if the God of Christians is real, and it in no way affects Christian faith. God intends what he intends from all eternity and into all eternity. Nothing exists that is not in the Mind of God and has not always been in the Mind of God. Therefore, God intended the universe from all eternity. His intent is His act. What we 'DON’T know is exactly how He intended it or how, exactly, He actuated it.
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Its plausible, it doesn’t contradict dogma or doctrine its simply an alternative view somewhat unexplored.
 
Bahman said:
In fact I can imagine the very notion of timeless God. I just cannot put this God and a creation with a beginning in a same box because they are mutually exclusive. This is true because I need a reference point to define the beginning which differentiate absolutely nothing from something, so called the point of creation. God is however in state of timeless meaning that there is no after or before for him, in another point there is no reference point from God points of view, so I was wondering how the act creation is possible with timeless God.
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We are to a timeless God as a cartoon is to you, Bahman. You can give the cartoon points of reference but it won’t understand what they mean and it certainly will not understand your nature. You and the cartoon are not mutually exclusive.

How exactly do you arrive at a timeless God and a finite creation are mutually exclusive?
 
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Linusthe2nd:
Thomas Aquinas proved the existence of God five different ways (and some not so well known) and all are based on the assumption that the universe existed eternally.
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Linusthe2nd:
But he was also skeptical that it could be demonstrated philosophically that the universe had a beginning in time and, therefore, he thought it better not to base his arguments which he felt could be viewed as absurd because they were based on an assumption that could not be proven.
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So, did Thomas Aquinas believe that he could prove his assumption that the universe existed eternally?
 
Ridgerunner said:
In a way, the universe HAS TO be eternal if the God of Christians is real, and it in no way affects Christian faith. God intends what he intends from all eternity and into all eternity. Nothing exists that is not in the Mind of God and has not always been in the Mind of God. Therefore, God intended the universe from all eternity. His intent is His act. What we 'DON’T know is exactly how He intended it or how, exactly, He actuated it.
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So, the universe COuLD be eternal, but if so, it doesn’t contradict our Church beliefs and teaching, or did I misunderstand?
 
Aquinas saw no contradiction in the notion of an eternal created universe. For, even if the universe had no temporal beginning, it still would depend upon God for its very being. There is no conflict between the doctrine of creation and any physical theory. Theories in the natural sciences account for change. Whether the changes described are biological or cosmological, unending or finite, they remain processes. Creation accounts for the existence of things, not for changes in things.
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google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstthings.com%2Farticle%2F1999%2F11%2Faquinas-and-the-big-bang&ei=HTviVO3MLMamggT6g4HABw&usg=AFQjCNHZAqVS4r7dUaY_R3eFjBqbdAJyBg
 
Faith1960 said:
So, the universe COuLD be eternal, but if so, it doesn’t contradict our Church beliefs and teaching, or did I misunderstand?
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You didn’t misunderstand. The universe IS eternal in that it existed always in the Mind of God. As such, its existence was always inevitable. Now, the WAY it existed is something we don’t know and will never know because we can’t know the eternal Mind of God.
 
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Ridgerunner said:
You didn’t misunderstand. The universe IS eternal in that it existed always in the Mind of God. As such, its existence was always inevitable. Now, the WAY it existed is something we don’t know and will never know because we can’t know the eternal Mind of God.
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But if it’s been around forever, not in God’s mind but in actuality, does that contradict our faith?
 
Faith1960 said:
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But if it’s been around forever, not in God’s mind but in actuality, does that contradict our faith?
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What is “in actuality”?

I think we’re so far from knowing anything about the distant condition of the universe that it’s as idle to speculate about it as it is to speculate how many angels there are and what each one of them does.

I recall watching a program in which some astrophysicists were discussing how the “Big Bang” could have occurred. Well, said some, prior to that the universe was composed of “membranes”, each corresponding to a different dimension. (The various physicists differ, it appears, on how many of those there are) And some believe the intersection (banging together) of parts of two membranes caused the Big Bang and therefore the universe we know. Of course, according to them, all sorts of other universes might be out there, and probably are.

And what’s the time frame for all of that? Whatever number of years is bigger than Vingtillions? (I don’t even know if that’s a number, but I think it is)

Now, they do all of that with math, just going further and further into the absolutely unknowable in an ever more symbolic way. If the math doesn’t self-contradict, they accept it as telling what the deal is without ever seeing the least bit of it in reality.

Once we get into that kind of thing, we’re admitting we don’t know very much about the origins of the universe and aren’t ever likely to know very much about it.
 
Ridgerunner said:
What is “in actuality”?

I think we’re so far from knowing anything about the distant condition of the universe that it’s as idle to speculate about it as it is to speculate how many angels there are and what each one of them does.

I recall watching a program in which some astrophysicists were discussing how the “Big Bang” could have occurred. Well, said some, prior to that the universe was composed of “membranes”, each corresponding to a different dimension. (The various physicists differ, it appears, on how many of those there are) And some believe the intersection (banging together) of parts of two membranes caused the Big Bang and therefore the universe we know. Of course, according to them, all sorts of other universes might be out there, and probably are.

And what’s the time frame for all of that? Whatever number of years is bigger than Vingtillions? (I don’t even know if that’s a number, but I think it is).
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In actuality, I mean, if the universe has always existed, rather than had been created by the Big Bang or whatever. Would that contradict our faith,?
 
Faith1960 said:
In actuality, I mean, if the universe has always existed, rather than had been created by the Big Bang or whatever. Would that contradict our faith,?
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I think I have expressed that I see no way that it could. Our faith is not dependent on the Big Bang or any other theory physicists have. But I think it would be extremely foolish to fall back into the “stable state universe” that they believed in some 200 years ago. Even with its limitations, science has debunked that one thoroughly because the universe manifestly changes. Whatever it is now, it is certain that it wasn’t always that way.

To say something existed and to say HOW it existed are two entirely different things.
 
Nixbits said:
So, did Thomas Aquinas believe that he could prove his assumption that the universe existed eternally?
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It was not hie assumption, it was that of the ancients. So for the sake of argument, he showed that he could prove the existence of God even on their assumption that the universe existed eternally.

Linus2nd
 
Ridgerunner said:
I think I have expressed that I see no way that it could. Our faith is not dependent on the Big Bang or any other theory physicists have. But I think it would be extremely foolish to fall back into the “stable state universe” that they believed in some 200 years ago. Even with its limitations, science has debunked that one thoroughly because the universe manifestly changes. Whatever it is now, it is certain that it wasn’t always that way.

To say something existed and to say HOW it existed are two entirely different things.
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I understand that, but IF we were wrong and IF the universe existed eternally, would that contradict our faith?
 
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