Eternal Universe

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Faith1960 said:
Just to be clear, I meant the article in my OP. So with regard to the article in the OP I posted says, what it says would have no negative impact on Catholicism?
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None, zip, zero, negative, zilch.
 
Faith1960 said:
Just to be clear, I meant the article in my OP. So with regard to the article in the OP I posted says, what it says would have no negative impact on Catholicism?
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Why do you think that anything in that article would have a bearing on our Faith? It would have no bearing on God, the bible, Christianity, or faith. How the universe is created does not have any bearing on whether the universe is created.
 
JimG said:
Why do you think that anything in that article would have a bearing on our Faith? It would have no bearing on God, the bible, Christianity, or faith. How the universe is created does not have any bearing on whether the universe is created.
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Because some Catholics, including Aquinas, “seem” to think that it is an article of faith that creation has a temporal beginning beside the fact of having an existential cause.

Has that not been apparent to you?
 
ChainBreaker said:
Because some Catholics, including Aquinas, “seem” to think that it is an article of faith that creation has a temporal beginning beside the fact of having an existential cause.

Has that not been apparent to you?
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Well, I guess it hasn’t been. I know it’s a pretty common belief. But I think it gives far too much weight to the temporal and material. Way back when, I had a Jesuit philosophy professor who emphasized over and over again that the argument against an infinite series of causes did not refer to temporal causes but to immediate causes—i.e. here and now. Lack of a temporal beginning does not obviate the need for a creator.

Catholic theology posits that God created everything from nothing. It does not require that He creates it with given temporal starting point.

In fact, since God creates everything from nothing, he cannot just in effect go off and leave it, because then it would simply be held in existence by the substance of which it was made—i.e. nothing. So God’s creation is in effect continuous. If he was not permanently mindful of his creation, it would cease to exist, reverting back to nothing. But God’s creative will is eternal, (while the universe is temporal) so we don’t have to worry about that.
 
JimG said:
Well, I guess it hasn’t been. I know it’s a pretty common belief. But I think it gives far too much weight to the temporal and material. Way back when, I had a Jesuit philosophy professor who emphasized over and over again that the argument against an infinite series of causes did not refer to temporal causes but to immediate causes—i.e. here and now. Lack of a temporal beginning does not obviate the need for a creator.

Catholic theology posits that God created everything from nothing. It does not require that He creates it with given temporal starting point.

In fact, since God creates everything from nothing, he cannot just in effect go off and leave it, because then it would simply be held in existence by the substance of which it was made—i.e. nothing. So God’s creation is in effect continuous. If he was not permanently mindful of his creation, it would cease to exist, reverting back to nothing. But God’s creative will is eternal, (while the universe is temporal) so we don’t have to worry about that.
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How a sustained illusion as you expressed could be conscious? Did theologians have any answer of that?
 
JimG said:
Well, I guess it hasn’t been. I know it’s a pretty common belief. But I think it gives far too much weight to the temporal and material. Way back when, I had a Jesuit philosophy professor who emphasized over and over again that the argument against an infinite series of causes did not refer to temporal causes but to immediate causes—i.e. here and now. Lack of a temporal beginning does not obviate the need for a creator.

Catholic theology posits that God created everything from nothing. It does not require that He creates it with given temporal starting point.

In fact, since God creates everything from nothing, he cannot just in effect go off and leave it, because then it would simply be held in existence by the substance of which it was made—i.e. nothing. So God’s creation is in effect continuous. If he was not permanently mindful of his creation, it would cease to exist, reverting back to nothing. But God’s creative will is eternal, (while the universe is temporal) so we don’t have to worry about that.
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I agree that God’s creative act is continuous and not a one time event.

I thought that it was a requirement of Catholics to believe in a temporal beginning. My mistake.
 
Bahman said:
How a sustained illusion as you expressed could be conscious? Did theologians have any answer of that?
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Not a sustained illusion. Just a recognition of the implications of creation ex nihilo. The universe is real, but it is created. It cannot sustain its own existence because its existence is not its essence. Only God has an essence which is identical with existence. For a better explanation I would recommend a few of Frank Sheed’s theology books, such as Theology for Beginners and Theology and Sanity.
 
ChainBreaker said:
I agree that God’s creative act is continuous and not a one time event.

I thought that it was a requirement of Catholics to believe in a temporal beginning. My mistake.
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I don’t think it’s a requirement. I hope not. A temporal beginning has an elegance to it that other theories might lack, but I don’t see that it is essential.
 
JimG said:
Not a sustained illusion. Just a recognition of the implications of creation ex nihilo. The universe is real, but it is created. It cannot sustain its own existence because its existence is not its essence. Only God has an essence which is identical with existence. For a better explanation I would recommend a few of Frank Sheed’s theology books, such as Theology for Beginners and Theology and Sanity.
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That is a delusion. I can move my own body and this very real. Today, we can see all details within our body each is there to perform a specific function. What is the used of all these complexity? Hence, our essence is united with physical and no intervention is needed.
 
Bahman said:
That is a delusion. I can move my own body and this very real. Today, we can see all details within our body each is there to perform a specific function. What is the used of all these complexity? Hence, our essence is united with physical and no intervention is needed.
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Of course we possess existence. Our existence is no illusion. It is real and permanent and tangible. But it is an existence which is created. My essence is to be a human being. My essence is not existence itself. We hold our existence as created beings. God holds his existence as an uncreated being. That doesn’t make us any less real, or the universe any less real.
 
JimG said:
Of course we possess existence. Our existence is no illusion. It is real and permanent and tangible. But it is an existence which is created. My essence is to be a human being. My essence is not existence itself. We hold our existence as created beings. God holds his existence as an uncreated being. That doesn’t make us any less real, or the universe any less real.
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How about your essence? Is it created too? That was my key question.
 
Bahman said:
How about your essence? Is it created too? That was my key question.
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Philosophically, essence is what I am. It is the whatness of something: human being, animal, rock, star. Since all things are created by God, by definition their essence is created. Being a creature does not mean we do not have a firm grip on our existence. We have to, because in creating, God does not change his mind.
 
Bahman said:
How about your essence? Is it created too? That was my key question.
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Thats what I’m saying, what is the nature of this eternal essence, from NASA
But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 68% of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn’t be called “normal” matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the Universe.
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😊
it is an important mystery
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JimG said:
Philosophically, essence is what I am. It is the whatness of something: human being, animal, rock, star. Since all things are created by God, by definition their essence is created. Being a creature does not mean we do not have a firm grip on our existence. We have to, because in creating, God does not change his mind.
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Does God sustain our essence too?
 
Bahman said:
Does God sustain our essence too?
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How about this way. Mystery X = Existence = Man= what? Body and Soul? Consciousness, love, morality and more “mystery” but no more working math. Is it universally connected though?
 
Bahman said:
Does God sustain our essence too?
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Yes, God sustains everything. We are human beings with a body and soul, all created and necessarily sustained by God. We have a real existence, not an illusory existence. I’m just restating the basics of Catholic faith that all things are created by God; that’s why we call it creation.

But I can’t philosophize any more today. Have to go.
 
JimG said:
Yes, God sustains everything. We are human beings with a body and soul, all created and necessarily sustained by God. We have a real existence, not an illusory existence. I’m just restating the basics of Catholic faith that all things are created by God; that’s why we call it creation.

But I can’t philosophize any more today. Have to go.
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Then we are back to my first question: how we could have a single experience?
 
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