Ethan, and Joseph, Smith

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lax16 said:
gazelam - That is a funny log on name! 🙂

If I met you on the street and asked you to discuss the BoM and the possibility that it was pieced together from many sources - what would you say?

(Please don’t tell me you would start quoting LDS apologist websites! ;))
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bump
 
Typical cut and run tactic. We see it alot

If you cannot provide a reasonable answer, with references, just quit posting a while.

Then when the dust settles, come back.

Then the thread is either closed, or selective amnesia kicks in.

Sorry, but it is a behavior pattern I’ve seen for a couple of years now.
 
twopekinguys said:
Typical cut and run tactic. We see it alot

If you cannot provide a reasonable answer, with references, just quit posting a while.

Then when the dust settles, come back.

Then the thread is either closed, or selective amnesia kicks in.

Sorry, but it is a behavior pattern I’ve seen for a couple of years now.
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ok…but wouldn’t you be the same? There is awfully strong evidence that your prophet stole his book from at least 2 different sources and said it was from God. Wouldn’t you leave until that dust settled?
 
TexanKnight said:
ok…but wouldn’t you be the same? There is awfully strong evidence that your prophet stole his book from at least 2 different sources and said it was from God. Wouldn’t you leave until that dust settled?
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For me, there are two options.
  1. Defend it, using pro, and neutral sources.
  2. Study hard, learn the truth, and eventually get the heck out of Dodge.
 
twopekinguys said:
Typical cut and run tactic. We see it alot

If you cannot provide a reasonable answer, with references, just quit posting a while.

Then when the dust settles, come back.

Then the thread is either closed, or selective amnesia kicks in.

Sorry, but it is a behavior pattern I’ve seen for a couple of years now.
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I’m very confident that gazelam will return and answer our questions. 🙂
 
zaffiroborant said:
Nothing in your link addresses JS reading and taking View of the Hebrews as a starting point for his own work of fiction The Book of Mormon.
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It does make the point that if JS were covering up a forgery he wouldn’t want to call attention to View of the Hebrews if it were a source.
 
lax16 said:
If I met you on the street and asked you to discuss the BoM and the possibility that it was pieced together from many sources - what would you say?

(Please don’t tell me you would start quoting LDS apologist websites! ;))
Click to expand...
What are you trying to do? Cut me off at my LDS apologist website knees?!?! Clearly from the information posted here “View of the Hebrews” is no threat to the authenticity of the B of M. Joseph Smith referred to that work, which he probably wouldn’t have done were it the source of a forgery. BH Roberts saw not threat to the B of M. LDS publications referenced it which clearly means the authors at the time thought it would bolster the case of the B of M. Regarding the Spaulding theory, the now unmentionable websites note that Fawn Brodie and Sandra and Gerald Tanner agree that the Spaulding theory is bogus.

Here’s a mock assignment Hugh Nibley sometimes gave to his B of M students… The following text is taken from the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol. 8, Ch. 11, pp. 221-2:

"Since Joseph Smith was younger than most of you and not nearly so experienced or well-educated as any of you at the time he copyrighted the Book of Mormon, it should not be too much to ask you to hand in by the end of the semester (which will give you more time than he had) a paper of, say, five to six hundred pages in length. Call it a sacred book if you will, and give it the form of a history. Tell of a community of wandering Jews in ancient times; have all sorts of characters in your story, and involve them in all sorts of public and private vicissitudes; give them names–hundreds of them–pretending that they are real Hebrew and Egyptian names of circa 600 b.c.; be lavish with cultural and technical details–manners and customs, arts and industries, political and religious institutions, rites, and traditions, include long and complicated military and economic histories; have your narrative cover a thousand years without any large gaps; keep a number of interrelated local histories going at once; feel free to introduce religious controversy and philosophical discussion, but always in a plausible setting; observe the appropriate literary conventions and explain the derivation and transmission of your varied historical materials.
"Above all, do not ever contradict yourself! For now we come to the really hard part of this little assignment. You and I know that you are making this all up–we have our little joke–but just the same you are going to be required to have your paper published when you finish it, not as fiction or romance, but as a true history! After you have handed it in you may make no changes in it (in this class we always use the first edition of the Book of Mormon); what is more, you are to invite any and all scholars to read and criticize your work freely, explaining to them that it is a sacred book on a par with the Bible. If they seem over-skeptical, you might tell them that you translated the book from original records by the aid of the Urim and Thummim–they will love that! Further to allay their misgivings, you might tell them that the original manuscript was on golden plates, and that you got the plates from an angel. Now go to work and good luck!
 
gazelam said:
It does make the point that if JS were covering up a forgery he wouldn’t want to call attention to View of the Hebrews if it were a source.
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I don’t see any validity in that point, it’s not a matter of forgery or even plagiarism if JS was simply writing a speculative fiction book, and early treatment of the BoM by JS lends support to the idea the he intended to write a book to sell not scripture. If he started out writing a fictional book then whether or not some one else’s speculation receives attention wouldn’t matter. As a matter of fact if indeed View of the Hebrews was a “best seller” any association of it to The Book of Mormon could be beneficial for BoM sales.
 
gazelam said:
What are you trying to do? Cut me off at my LDS apologist website knees?!?! Clearly from the information posted here “View of the Hebrews” is no threat to the authenticity of the B of M.

Hmmmm…evidence that he did not receive gold plates from God but used the works of others to create his book is not a threat to the BofM authenticity? Of course it is!

Joseph Smith referred to that work, which he probably wouldn’t have done were it the source of a forgery.

Not true. Sometimes the best way to get rid of the elephant in the room is to discuss the elepahnt in the room so that people like you will say, “see? he discussed it, so it must not be an issue”.

Here’s a mock assignment Hugh Nibley sometimes gave to his B of M students… The following text is taken from the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol. 8, Ch. 11, pp. 221-2:

"Since Joseph Smith was younger than most of you and not nearly so experienced or well-educated as any of you at the time he copyrighted the Book of Mormon, it should not be too much to ask you to hand in by the end of the semester (which will give you more time than he had) a paper of, say, five to six hundred pages in length. Call it a sacred book if you will, and give it the form of a history. Tell of a community of wandering Jews in ancient times; have all sorts of characters in your story, and involve them in all sorts of public and private vicissitudes; give them names–hundreds of them–pretending that they are real Hebrew and Egyptian names of circa 600 b.c.; be lavish with cultural and technical details–manners and customs, arts and industries, political and religious institutions, rites, and traditions, include long and complicated military and economic histories; have your narrative cover a thousand years without any large gaps; keep a number of interrelated local histories going at once; feel free to introduce religious controversy and philosophical discussion, but always in a plausible setting; observe the appropriate literary conventions and explain the derivation and transmission of your varied historical materials.
"Above all, do not ever contradict yourself! For now we come to the really hard part of this little assignment. You and I know that you are making this all up–we have our little joke–but just the same you are going to be required to have your paper published when you finish it, not as fiction or romance, but as a true history! After you have handed it in you may make no changes in it (in this class we always use the first edition of the Book of Mormon); what is more, you are to invite any and all scholars to read and criticize your work freely, explaining to them that it is a sacred book on a par with the Bible. If they seem over-skeptical, you might tell them that you translated the book from original records by the aid of the Urim and Thummim–they will love that! Further to allay their misgivings, you might tell them that the original manuscript was on golden plates, and that you got the plates from an angel. Now go to work and good luck!

This is a bogus assignment. It only works IF you take the Joseph Smith story (of course you have pick one first) and accept it as true. Once you realize that he was actually pretty educated, was helped by a teacher, had more time than the homework indicates and was able to use Ethan Smith’s work, the Bible, and maybe Spaulding, it becomes something a 9th grader could do.
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gazelam said:
He that fights and runs away, may turn and fight another day!! - Tacitus
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A. Quoting someone else’s research is not engaging in the fight.

B. Notice the word “may” in your quote. It doesn’t mean he “will” return.

You also realize that this quote is most associated with cowardice right? Not really helping your point now is it?

In the military, we call those people cowards and traitors. Want to try for something that might actually bolster your position?
 
gazelam said:
What are you trying to do? Cut me off at my LDS apologist website knees?!?!
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😃
Clearly from the information posted here “View of the Hebrews” is no threat to the authenticity of the B of M.
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In the famous words of gazelam, au contraire!

**1. **Roberts’ list of parallels included:
extensive quotation from the prophecies of Isaiah in the Old Testament;
the Israelite origin of the American Indian;
the future gathering of Israel and restoration of the Ten Lost Tribes;
the peopling of the New World from the Old via a long journey northward which encountered “seas” of “many waters;”
a religious motive for the migration;
the division of the migrants into civilized and uncivilized groups with long wars between them and the eventual destruction of the civilized by the uncivilized;
the assumption that all native peoples were descended from Israelites and their languages from Hebrew;
the burial of a “lost book” with “yellow leaves;”
the description of extensive military fortifications with military observatories or “watch towers” overlooking them;
a change from monarchy to republican forms of government; and
the preaching of the gospel in ancient America.[14]

2. Ethan Smith lived in Poultney, Vermont, the same town as Oliver Cowdery, who later served as Joseph Smith’s scribe for the Book of Mormon. Ethan Smith also pastored the Congregational church that Cowdery’s family attended from 1821 to 1826 while he was writing View of the Hebrews.

3. “Critics postulate a link between Ethan Smith and Oliver Cowdery, since both men lived in Poultney, Vermont while Smith served as the pastor of the church that Oliver Cowdery’s family attended at the time that View of the Hebrews was being written. Beyond speculation based upon this circumstantial evidence, there is no indication of a connection between View of the Hebrews, Oliver Cowdery, and the Book of Mormon.”

4. He ** concluded that there was “a great probability” that the Smith family had read or possessed a knowledge of View of the Hebrews. The book was written, published, and widely distributed in New England and New York where the Smith family lived, two editions rapidly selling out. Roberts believed that if the Smith’s did not purchase a copy, it could easily have been supplied by Oliver Cowdery, Smith’s cousin and scribes.**
 
continued:

5. J. W. Webb & M. M. Noah Thursday, September 1, 1831. Vol. VII. – No. 563.

MORMON RELIGION – CLERICAL AMBITION –
WESTERN NEW YORK – THE MORMONITES GONE TO OHIO

The object of his going to the city to get the “Book of Mormon” printed, was not however accomplished. He returned with his manuscript or engravings to Palmyra – tried to raise money by mortgage on his farm from the New York Trust Company – did raise the money, but from what source – whether the Trust Company or not I am uncertain. At last a printer in Palmyra undertook to print the manuscript of Joe Smith, Harris becoming responsible for the expense. They were called translaters, but in fact and in truth they are believed to be the work of the Ex-Preacher from Ohio, who stood in the background and put forward Joe to father the new bible and the new faith.

sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY/courier.htm

6. George Reynolds, “View of the Hebrews”
Juvenile Instructor Oct. 1, 1902

Vol. XXXVII. SALT LAKE CITY, OCTOBER 1, 1902. No. 19.

[p. 995]

“VIEW OF THE HEBREWS”

THE above is the title of a remarkable book that has lately fallen into our hands – remarkable from the fact that it produces such strong evidences in favor of the genuineness of the Book of Mormon. It is written by a reverend gentleman named Ethan Smith, the pastor of a church in Poultney, Vermont, and its second edition, the one in our possession, was issued in April, 1825: that is before the sacred plates containing Mormon’s record were placed in the Prophet Joseph’s hands by the Angel Moroni for translation; this latter important event having taken place in September, 1827.

The whole of Mr. Smith’s book, (285 pages) is devoted to proving that the American Indians are a remnant of the House of Israel. This he does by appealing to their manners, and customs, religious observations, languages, traditions, physical appearance, etc. etc., and a wonderful strong showing he makes. But the most remarkable thing is his own conclusions regarding the ancient history of America derived from long study of the material he has gathered. He writes, and it must be remembered that this was written years before the Book of Mormon was published, or indeed translated:

**7. **Plagiarism from View of the Hebrews

Critics claim that Smith based several passages and many thematic elements in The Book of Mormon on material he found in View of the Hebrews, published in 1823, with an expanded edition in 1825, by Ethan Smith. Examples of verses that critics claim are plagiarized include:

View of the Hebrews by Ethan Smith (1825 edition)
“[T]hose far distant savages have (as have all other tribes) their Great Spirit, who made everything” (p. 103)

Book of Mormon (1830) “Believest thou that this Great Spirit which is God, created all things … And he saith, Yea, I believe that he created all things” (Alma 18:28–29)
View of the Hebrews
“[T]he places … are noted; among which are ‘the isles of the sea’”. (p. 232-233)

Book of Mormon
[W]e have been led to a better land, … [W]e are upon an isle of the sea" (2 Nephi 10:20)
View of the Hebrews
" ‘I will hiss for them’ God is represented as hissing for a people. … [To] behold the banner of salvation now erected for his ancient people… This standard of salvation." (p. 235,241–242)

Book of Mormon
“[M]y words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the House of Israel.” (2 Nephi 29:2)
 
lax16 said:
continued:

5. J. W. Webb & M. M. Noah Thursday, September 1, 1831. Vol. VII. – No. 563.

MORMON RELIGION – CLERICAL AMBITION –
WESTERN NEW YORK – THE MORMONITES GONE TO OHIO

The object of his going to the city to get the “Book of Mormon” printed, was not however accomplished. He returned with his manuscript or engravings to Palmyra – tried to raise money by mortgage on his farm from the New York Trust Company – did raise the money, but from what source – whether the Trust Company or not I am uncertain. At last a printer in Palmyra undertook to print the manuscript of Joe Smith, Harris becoming responsible for the expense. They were called translaters, but in fact and in truth they are believed to be the work of the Ex-Preacher from Ohio, who stood in the background and put forward Joe to father the new bible and the new faith.

sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NY/courier.htm

6. George Reynolds, “View of the Hebrews”
Juvenile Instructor Oct. 1, 1902

Vol. XXXVII. SALT LAKE CITY, OCTOBER 1, 1902. No. 19.

[p. 995]

“VIEW OF THE HEBREWS”

THE above is the title of a remarkable book that has lately fallen into our hands – remarkable from the fact that it produces such strong evidences in favor of the genuineness of the Book of Mormon. It is written by a reverend gentleman named Ethan Smith, the pastor of a church in Poultney, Vermont, and its second edition, the one in our possession, was issued in April, 1825: that is before the sacred plates containing Mormon’s record were placed in the Prophet Joseph’s hands by the Angel Moroni for translation; this latter important event having taken place in September, 1827.

The whole of Mr. Smith’s book, (285 pages) is devoted to proving that the American Indians are a remnant of the House of Israel. This he does by appealing to their manners, and customs, religious observations, languages, traditions, physical appearance, etc. etc., and a wonderful strong showing he makes. But the most remarkable thing is his own conclusions regarding the ancient history of America derived from long study of the material he has gathered. He writes, and it must be remembered that this was written years before the Book of Mormon was published, or indeed translated:

**7. **Plagiarism from View of the Hebrews

Critics claim that Smith based several passages and many thematic elements in The Book of Mormon on material he found in View of the Hebrews, published in 1823, with an expanded edition in 1825, by Ethan Smith. Examples of verses that critics claim are plagiarized include:

View of the Hebrews by Ethan Smith (1825 edition)
“[T]hose far distant savages have (as have all other tribes) their Great Spirit, who made everything” (p. 103)

Book of Mormon (1830) “Believest thou that this Great Spirit which is God, created all things … And he saith, Yea, I believe that he created all things” (Alma 18:28–29)
View of the Hebrews
“[T]he places … are noted; among which are ‘the isles of the sea’”. (p. 232-233)

Book of Mormon
[W]e have been led to a better land, … [W]e are upon an isle of the sea" (2 Nephi 10:20)
View of the Hebrews
" ‘I will hiss for them’ God is represented as hissing for a people. … [To] behold the banner of salvation now erected for his ancient people… This standard of salvation." (p. 235,241–242)

Book of Mormon
“[M]y words shall hiss forth unto the ends of the earth, for a standard unto my people, which are of the House of Israel.” (2 Nephi 29:2)
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And the truth fell on deaf ears…
 
Okay, gazelam, let’s do Hugh Nibley’s assignment together. 🙂

(bold mine. My lesson questions in red.)
"Since Joseph Smith was younger than most of you
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An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, Grant Palmer, pp 42-44.

**Joseph’s age
**
We’ve heard many times that it’s impossible for a young boy to have written the BOM. Although the Church doesn’t teach this, many members mistakenly confuse the age of Joseph when he translated the BOM with the age Joseph was when he had the First Vision at age 14 or 15. The first edition of the BOM was published in 1830 when Joseph was 24. So Joseph was in his early to mid twenties when the BOM was translated and not a teenager.

That is younger than most students at BYU?.
or well-educated as any of you
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(from mormonthink)

Joseph’s life as a child.

Joseph Smith was born on December 23, 1805 in Sharon, Vermont to Joseph and Lucy Mack Smith. He grew up on a series of farms in Vermont, New Hampshire, and New York. Although the LDS church has painted a picture of Joseph Smith as an uneducated farm boy,** he was home schooled quite extensively in “reading, writing, and the ground rules of arithmetic,” as his mother put it.
**

Joseph’s education.
Joseph Smith did have limited formal education and that’s often heralded as ‘proof’ that he could not have written the BOM. However most people do not know that **Joseph’s father, Joseph Smith, Sr., was a school teacher during the off season. Joseph’s brother, Hyrum, worked as a school teacher during the off season also. One of his sisters may have also **been a teacher at some point in her life. This wasn’t a family of illiterates. Education was important to the Smith family, and although Joseph may have only had limited formal education in a typical classroom, his parents undoubtedly schooled him at home. ** Also Joseph was going to high school when he was 20 years old in Harmony PA with the Stowell children.
**
Joseph was able to read and ponder scriptures. His parents were literate. He had access **to books and newspapers. He even held a position as “exhorter” at a local church. Joseph’s mother wrote that they did not neglect the education of their children.
**

Religious education

Young Joseph was able to read and ponder scriptures. **Joseph also attended many ****protestant church services and studied the Bible in depth. ** According to Joseph Smith’s mother he told her, back before the BOM came forth that,

“I can take my Bible, and go into the woods, and learn more in two hours, than you can learn at meetings in two years, if you should go all the time.” [Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith, the Prophet, and His Progenitors for Many Generations (Liverpool: S. W. Richards, 1853), p. 90]

The poor grammar in the 1830 BOM shows the lack of formal education that Joseph had. However, lack of education does not mean lack of intelligence or imagination. The original grammar and the errors in the BOM is what would be expected from someone with limited formal education.

How many BYU students can go into the woods and learn more in two hours from their Bible than they can in two years of meetings?
 
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