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YoGoRCC
Guest
I wish I could snap my fingers and magically teleport one of those grand old structures to California where Catholic parishes are in short supply.
I’d maintain it myself with my own hands and wallet. A far easier proposition here where the weather is far kinder to buildings.
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Cluny
Guest
There are also population shifts as well.
This happened at the other end of the state, where a particular city’s population shrank. Seven parishes, 4 of them ethnic, were consolidated into one mega-parish with 4 worship sites.
As a result of population reduction and dwindling ethnic identity, some of the churches had simply become redundant. There was a large, half empty Italian parish on one street, and a large-half empty Slovak parish a block away on the same street (for example).
This happened at the other end of the state, where a particular city’s population shrank. Seven parishes, 4 of them ethnic, were consolidated into one mega-parish with 4 worship sites.
As a result of population reduction and dwindling ethnic identity, some of the churches had simply become redundant. There was a large, half empty Italian parish on one street, and a large-half empty Slovak parish a block away on the same street (for example).
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Sarabande
Guest
This is such a tragedy. In one way, I understand how they have to close some of these parishes down, but in another way, it upsets me that communities are being broken and ties are severed.
My aunt and many people I know who are in the Scranton diocese are not too happy with Bishop Martino at all since he’s come there. It’s mostly because of how he has closed down so many of the parishes. Just as the article mentioned, the people up there have been worshiping in the same churches as their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. They recently closed a little farming parish that my family attended whenever we were up there. It has only been opened in the summers. Generations attended that mostly ethnically-Irish parish since it was opened. So many of the people who went there have most of their relatives/ancestors buried in the cemetary surrounding the church. There was such a close community and everyone knew each other.
The people and the pastor (who also was pastor of two other parishes) fought to keep it open - and it cost hardly anything to run the parish - but to no avail. So, now people have to travel much further to go to mass - some will now have to travel a half hour or more for mass in town rather than to stay on the mountain.
I have so many conflicted feelings about all of this. I’m sure many of these closings, especially the ones up near our way, have to do with a lack of priests. So, it’s very understandable. But I feel if the pastor was willing to keep on the three parishes (which he was) why didn’t they allow those parishes to stay open?
The entire situation is just so sad. I’ve seen that community hurt and divided because of it. I don’t think that farming community has been the same since then. When I have seen them now, they just seem to have a spirit taken out of them, like a part of them was destroyed.
My aunt and many people I know who are in the Scranton diocese are not too happy with Bishop Martino at all since he’s come there. It’s mostly because of how he has closed down so many of the parishes. Just as the article mentioned, the people up there have been worshiping in the same churches as their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents. They recently closed a little farming parish that my family attended whenever we were up there. It has only been opened in the summers. Generations attended that mostly ethnically-Irish parish since it was opened. So many of the people who went there have most of their relatives/ancestors buried in the cemetary surrounding the church. There was such a close community and everyone knew each other.
The people and the pastor (who also was pastor of two other parishes) fought to keep it open - and it cost hardly anything to run the parish - but to no avail. So, now people have to travel much further to go to mass - some will now have to travel a half hour or more for mass in town rather than to stay on the mountain.
I have so many conflicted feelings about all of this. I’m sure many of these closings, especially the ones up near our way, have to do with a lack of priests. So, it’s very understandable. But I feel if the pastor was willing to keep on the three parishes (which he was) why didn’t they allow those parishes to stay open?
The entire situation is just so sad. I’ve seen that community hurt and divided because of it. I don’t think that farming community has been the same since then. When I have seen them now, they just seem to have a spirit taken out of them, like a part of them was destroyed.
K
Kearney
Guest
I’m sure that the hardworking and devout people in these parishes would have paid to keep them running. This is the same type of garbage that we have seen in other diocese like Boston and Newark. The bishop needs money to pay off his debtors so he just decides to close as many “unviable” parishes as he sees fit to without any concern for the people who have attended them for generations.
As I mentioned, the same thing happened in Boston. They closed parishes right and left, even in communities which still had large, Catholic populations who went to mass. Well some people decided to fight back. At Our Lady of Mount Carmel Italian parish in East Boston, the parishioners occupied the Church and refused to leave. This constant vigil, complete with a Rosary on Sundays in place of mass, has been going on since 2004. The Boston arch finally caved in a couple years ago and allowed a priest to celebrate mass on Easter but that was it.
Who knows, Maybe this course of action should be studied more closely by those in the Scranton diocese?
As I mentioned, the same thing happened in Boston. They closed parishes right and left, even in communities which still had large, Catholic populations who went to mass. Well some people decided to fight back. At Our Lady of Mount Carmel Italian parish in East Boston, the parishioners occupied the Church and refused to leave. This constant vigil, complete with a Rosary on Sundays in place of mass, has been going on since 2004. The Boston arch finally caved in a couple years ago and allowed a priest to celebrate mass on Easter but that was it.
Who knows, Maybe this course of action should be studied more closely by those in the Scranton diocese?
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PhilotheaZ
Guest
To me what is really sad and tragic is that our bishop has come under attack for making difficult but necessary decisions that should have been made years ago before he arrived. Churches are half-empty, priests are trying to manage four parishes and being pulled in so many directions by the demands of each, bills are not being paid, priests are suffering from stress sometimes to the point of nervous breakdown.
People in this area must begin to think of themselves as Catholic, not as “Italian Catholic” or “Slovak Catholic” or “German Catholic” or “Polish Catholic” or “Irish Catholic” or “Tyrolean Catholic” or “Magyar Catholic” (yes, our small city has churches for each of these).
When I moved to northeast Pennsylvania five years ago, I was amazed to see the ethnic division in our “Catholic” (meaning: “universal”) churches. I remember visiting a local “Italian” Catholic church for a weekday Mass one day, and an elderly lady came up to me after Mass and said, “This isn’t your parish, is it?” and when I replied in the negative, she told me I should go back to my own parish! (I guess it was obvious I’m not Italian.) A friend of mine (in her 50’s) told me that when she got married it was considered “scandalous” when an Italian Catholic married a German Catholic, etc.
Parting with the church building we grew up with can be painful, but we have to start thinking of the Church as more than a building, that we are the Body of Christ regardless of ethnicity, no matter which building we worship in.
In Bishop Martino’s defense, he is a good, holy man of deep prayer who did not take any of these decisions lightly. He involved parishioners extensively in the decision-making process, with representatives from every parish making recommendations that were seriously considered. I am also proud of him for being staunchly and vocally pro-life. Please pray for him. He is going through a very difficult time right now.
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Sarabande
Guest
This is true for some parishes, but for the parishes that was closed in the area I attended, this wasn’t the case. They were well-attended parishes. Even the priest who managed the three parishes fought alongside the parishioners to keep the two opened. Many believe that the reason why their parish was closed was because it was a farming parish ie. not well-off. Of course they couldn’t bring in too much money for the entire diocese, but their own money - not the diocese - took care of their church.
Also, that parish is ethnically Irish, but that is only because almost all the residents in that area is Irish. You do get a few people from other ethnicities that attend there, including our “clan”. It’s rural, farm country up there, so you aren’t going to get too much “diversity”.
Wow, now that is bad. I agree that they need to think of themselves as Catholic first. But she’s an elderly woman. You can get that almost anywhere, especially with older people (no offense to the elderly). My mother got it from an old, Italian woman who was my mom’s house mother in college when she told my mother (a Filipina) to “keep to her kind” when she started dating my dad (Irish/German/English guy).
He does need prayers. I remember him in my childhood parish in my diocese and he seemed fine. Unfortunately, I think he is often looked upon as one of Cardinal Bevilacqua’s “cronies”, who came to Philadelphia with a somewhat notorious reputation of already bankrupting dioceses and then proceeded to close down parishes and schools left and right in Philadelphia, amongst other things. I know Philadelphia is much happier with their current archbishop. Bishop Martino, unfortunately, has this stigma of being connected to Bevilacqua to contend with and that is shame.
Like I said, I’m conflicted about the whole situation. I know on one hand why it has been done especially in larger cities and towns, but on the other it is very hard - especially for this one particular parish I’ve been affiliated with which actually truly didn’t have to be closed.
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CapIV
Guest
I’m from there. It is sad, but Bishop Martino did the right thing and did what he had to. He is a good bishop.
The real sadness is how negatively some are treating the bishop.
The real sadness is how negatively some are treating the bishop.
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Kearney
Guest
While we may all e united in the Catholic faith, there are still different ways, customs, and traditions of expressing that faith to the world and within our own communities. Catholicism is a religion that easily acculturates itself into various peoples and societies which then takes root in outward expressions of the peoples faith and devotion.
There are many practices that Italian Catholics have (such as street processions) which would seem almost pagan to Irish Catholics who are less interested in outward ritualism and more into private and theological devotion. Similarly, Polish Catholics also tend to practice a more vibrant, folksy type of faith then their Irish and German counterparts. These people want to preserve these things and have done so for decades at these ethnic parishes. The faith is still taught the same way but it is expressed outwardly very differently from parish to parish and group to group.
Not everyone wants to “be a like” and assimilate into a vast admixture of people held together only be dogma and doctrine. Diversity is good and it’s something that we should be trying to promote in our diocese, not squash out for moneys sake!
There are many practices that Italian Catholics have (such as street processions) which would seem almost pagan to Irish Catholics who are less interested in outward ritualism and more into private and theological devotion. Similarly, Polish Catholics also tend to practice a more vibrant, folksy type of faith then their Irish and German counterparts. These people want to preserve these things and have done so for decades at these ethnic parishes. The faith is still taught the same way but it is expressed outwardly very differently from parish to parish and group to group.
Not everyone wants to “be a like” and assimilate into a vast admixture of people held together only be dogma and doctrine. Diversity is good and it’s something that we should be trying to promote in our diocese, not squash out for moneys sake!
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NReily
Guest
Amen to this. This should be happening across the country as well.
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FK04US
Guest
What about the Latino population? They are not asking for having their own parish, they have a Latino Mass in a established parish and are able to maintain their feasts and traditions. It is doable.
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FrDavid96
Guest
This isn’t just about “ethnicity” it’s about people whose families have been part of a parish for generations. These families have been attending these churches for sometimes upwards of seven generations. That’s right, seven generations of baptisms, first communions, weddings, funerals, the next generation of baptisms and so on–all in the same church. It’s about people whose great-great-great grandparents saved their pennied and nickles from working in the coal mines to build magnificent structures to the Glory of God–some big, some small, some outright tiny, but always for the Glory of God. It’s about ancestors who built those churches with their own hands. It’s about generations of people who would take their weekly pay from the coal mines and set-aside the money for the Sunday collection before they bought their own groceries. It’s about people who endured world wars, a great depression, the turbulence of the 60s, Vietman, The Flood, and our own contemporary problems and yet through it all, were sustained by the stability of their faith–a faith practiced in their churches which are so much more than just wood and bricks on some real estate parcel. It’s about people who spent decades praying for their relatives behind the iron curtain knowing that those relatives were having their churches destroyed so that the buildings and land could be put to a “better use.” It’s about people who worship in truly Sacred Spaces surrounded by priceless Sacred Art, part of the patrimony of the Church (remember when Vatican II said that?)–Sacred Spaces which declare “this is the House of God” to believers and non-believers alike.
It’s about those little stadi babbas (we see in the photos in the newspaper articles referenced here) making the pierogies week after week to raise the money to pay the bills and do the necessary reparis not willing to give up on their churches as long as they have the least glimmer of hope that if they work just a little bit harder, maybe they’ll be spared, all the time worrying “when my own time comes, and it won’t be long now, will I be burried from my own church?”
It’s about people who have always looked upon going to church as a moment of comfort and hope, but finding only pain and sorrow now. It’s about people who feel abandoned by the very Church which is supposed to be nourishing and sustaining them. It’s about people who are concerned about the economy, and concerned about the possibility of another terrorist attack, but who outright fear the next time they have to pick up a church bulletin and learn that their beloved parish church won’t be there for them anymore.
It’s about people who want their children and grandchildren to have the benefits of a Catholic education, and are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to make that happen, but who are being turned away by closed doors.
It’s not just about ethnicity, and it’s not just real estate. It’s about people and the House of God which they call their own–or at least they used to be able to call it their home.
It’s about those little stadi babbas (we see in the photos in the newspaper articles referenced here) making the pierogies week after week to raise the money to pay the bills and do the necessary reparis not willing to give up on their churches as long as they have the least glimmer of hope that if they work just a little bit harder, maybe they’ll be spared, all the time worrying “when my own time comes, and it won’t be long now, will I be burried from my own church?”
It’s about people who have always looked upon going to church as a moment of comfort and hope, but finding only pain and sorrow now. It’s about people who feel abandoned by the very Church which is supposed to be nourishing and sustaining them. It’s about people who are concerned about the economy, and concerned about the possibility of another terrorist attack, but who outright fear the next time they have to pick up a church bulletin and learn that their beloved parish church won’t be there for them anymore.
It’s about people who want their children and grandchildren to have the benefits of a Catholic education, and are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to make that happen, but who are being turned away by closed doors.
It’s not just about ethnicity, and it’s not just real estate. It’s about people and the House of God which they call their own–or at least they used to be able to call it their home.
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CapIV
Guest
I reiterate,Bishop Martino did the right thing.
What else would you expect him to do?
What else would you expect him to do?
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KathleenElsie
Guest
I wonder if some of the more ethnic groups might look into the Byzantine Catholic parishes?
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FrDavid96
Guest
I wonder how much people are aware of history. The Orthodox Church in America and the Polish National Church both have their origins in the diocese of Scranton. Not a very pleasant episode in the history of the Church.
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FrDavid96
Guest
A little compassion for the pain and suffering of the people in that area wouldn’t hurt you know. We’re not talking about tearing down a parking garage because it’s no longer needed. We’re talking about people’s spiritual homes. We’re talking about people who have worked for generations to support their churches, and who continue to do so. We’re talking about people who take their grandchildren into their churches, the places where their own great-grandparents were baptized, and has been their family’s home ever since, looking at those children and having to say “this church won’t be here for you, so take a good long look while you still can.”
That might not mean very much to you, but I assure you that it means a great deal to them.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
Father David it seems to me that there are alot of unpleasant episodes involving human beings in the history of the Holy Catholic Church. Maybe it is time to bury those hatchets and work together.
The Romanian Byzantine Cathoic Church near us is mostly 90% Roman Catholics that were displaced by the closings.
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KathleenElsie
Guest
We here in Pittsburgh and Greensburg dioceses have been going through this also. Promises made to some parishes are being broken even though they have become if not profitable they are now income neutral. Most of these are the one that have had generations of family members born, educated, had the sacraments, married and died there. Some of the older people have no way to get to their “new” assigned parish. The pain is so palatable that you could cut it with a knife.
The parish that I am closest to has never ever had a vocation come from it. This parish is still open. Two other smaller parishes in our area have had vocations come from them and they were the ones closed.
IMHO if we Catholics started actually teaching and expecting Catholics to follow the “rules” then we would not be in this situation. I know others don’t want to hear this but IMHO many of those that have had their churches closed were faithful and devout. Many of the parishes that remain open are the more “social” parishes where those that were born into the faith remain yet don’t truly believe what the Church teaches.
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FrDavid96
Guest
I’m not suggesting being bitter about the past. I am suggesting that when we don’t keep a close eye on history, it has a nasty habit of repeating itself. A thing which I very much do not want to see happen here; which is exactly why I brought it up. You suggested that some might consider the Byzantine parishes. I don’t know if you meant that as a suggestion or simply a question meaning “might this happen,” but perhaps without even realizing it you brought that element of history into the thread here. A history which I say again, I very much do not want to see repeated.
Back to the immediate topic, keep in mind, we’re not talking about “unpleasant episodes” of the past, which cannot be changed (no matter how much we would like to do so). This is the present. This history has yet to be written. What will it say?
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Sarabande
Guest
This is one of the things I have never been able to understand. If the parish is not costing the diocese any money and especially if it has become profitable, why is it then closed?
Then the other issue you brought up with the elderly or people who don’t drive or have no source of transportation not being able to get to their new parish. I’ve seen it happen in my own diocese when many parishes were closed and I know it is happening now up in the Scranton diocese. Nothing was done to help these people to get to mass. The new parishes did not help to maybe have parishioners volunteer to drive them in. I can’t believe this wasn’t taken into account when these closings were happening.
Yeah, I’m confused about that, too. Trying to look at it on the bright side, perhaps those smaller parishes will rub off on the parish that stayed open and maybe they’ll get more vocations.The parish that I am closest to has never ever had a vocation come from it. This parish is still open. Two other smaller parishes in our area have had vocations come from them and they were the ones closed.
This is hard to admit, but I think there is truth in this - at least in what I’ve experienced personally. That’s not to say all of the parishes that stay open are like that. There are legitimate reasons to close one parish and keep another open. For instance, the parish where my husband’s grandfather grew up consisted of all Irish Catholics at one time. But today, hardly anyone who lives in that area are Catholic. It’s now a very poor, dangerous neighborhood where the majority of Christians in that area are Protestant. A few months ago, my husband was doing work in that area and drove by his grandfather’s old church. There were workmen on the front chipping off the name “Corpus Christi” and they placed a sign, calling it “The Gospel Crusade Evangelical Church of Christ” or something like that. It was very sad for him to see that, but at the same time, the Catholic population is no longer there.
These bishops do have a tough job making decisions like this and they will always be looked at as a bad guy by someone no matter what. That is unfortunately the “plight” of being a public figure. But I sometimes wonder at their committee’s reasoning for closing some parishes down.
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