EU president’s praise for Catholic teaching welcomed as bishops urge citizens to vote in elections to stop "nationalist threat"

[Vouthon]

seems to contradict what you earlier said about Juncker speaking out against communism

Juncker described Marx as a critic of social inequalities and said that he shared Marx’s view that “blind, unconditional capitalism” can be a “plague” when it doesn’t take into account human individuals.

There’s nothing out of step with Catholic Social Teaching in that, which is in agreement. In fact, it’s an insightful remark.

But in the past, Juncker has referred on many occasions over the last four years to the crimes of Communist regimes founded in Marx’s name:

State of the Union 2015: Time for Honesty, Unity and Solidarity

State of the Union 2015: Time for Honesty, Unity and Solidarity State of the Union 2015: Time for Honesty, Unity and Solidarity Jean-Claude Juncker\nPresident of the European Commission\n\n \n\n\nMr Presid

ec.europa.eu

We Europeans should remember well that Europe is a continent where nearly everyone has at one time been a refugee. Our common history is marked by millions of Europeans fleeing from religious or political persecution, from war, dictatorship, or oppression.

Hungarian revolutionaries fleeing to Austria after their uprising against communist rule was oppressed by Soviet tanks in 1956.

Czech and Slovak citizens seeking exile in other European countries after the oppression of the Prague Spring in 1968.

There isn’t a contradiction between finding some “on-point” sociological critiques in Marx’s 19th century writings while forcefully condemning the tyrannical totalitarian communist regimes of the 20th century that were built in his name.

 

[Vouthon]

I’ll be quoting and writing on these tomorrow in response to @josie

Need to get to bed here in UK. Pronto.

 

[josie_L]

The churches condemn aspects or rather the excesses of capitalism. They condemn socialism in totality.

There is a difference.

 

[Vouthon]

They condemn socialism in totality.

Uh-uh.

Wrong.

On both scores.

As Pope St. Paul VI wrote in 1971 in Octegesima Adveniens

w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/apost_letters/documents/hf_p-vi_apl_19710514_octogesima-adveniens.html

Attraction of socialist currents

31. Some Christians are today attracted by socialist currents and their various developments. They try to recognize therein a certain number of aspirations which they carry within themselves in the name of their faith. They feel that they are part of that historical current and wish to play a part within it. Now this historical current takes on, under the same name, different forms according to different continents and cultures. Careful judgment is called for. Too often Christians attracted by socialism tend to idealize it in terms which, apart from anything else, are very general: a will for justice, solidarity and equality. Distinctions must be made to guide concrete choices between the various levels of expression of socialism: a generous aspiration and a seeking for a more just society, historical movements with a political organization and aim, and an ideology which claims to give a complete and self-sufficient picture of man. Nevertheless, these distinctions must not lead one to consider such levels as completely separate and independent. The concrete link which, according to circumstances, exists between them must be clearly marked out. This insight will enable Christians to see the degree of commitment possible along these lines.

Pope Saint John Paul II wrote in 1987, in his encyclical letter Sollicitudo Rei Socialis:

"The tension between East and West is an opposition… between two concepts of the development of individuals and peoples, both concepts being imperfect and in need of radical correction… This is one of the reasons why the Church’s social doctrine adopts a critical attitude towards both liberal capitalism and Marxist collectivism ."

It doesn’t mean that everything in capitalism or socialiam is evil but the systems as a whole (while granting their diversity and variability of expression in different cultures around the world) are heavily criticised as imperfect and in need of radical reform, albeit for different reasons. Value can be derived from elements of both, however.

 

[josie_L]

No, I’m not wrong:

Twelve years later, his successor, Pope Leo XIII issued the encyclical Quod Apostolici Muneris , in which he stated:

For, indeed, although the socialists, stealing the very Gospel itself with a view to deceive more easily the unwary, have been accustomed to distort it so as to suit their own purposes, nevertheless so great is the difference between their depraved teachings and the most pure doctrine of Christ that none greater could exist…

pThis brings us to the 20th century and Pope Pius XI’s Quadragesimo Anno, which states that socialism is “irreconcilable with true Christianity.” He continues with a powerful magisterial condemnation: “no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.”

http://m.ncregister.com/blog/johnclark/socialism-has-been-condemned-for-20-centuries

 

[Vouthon]

Will discuss this with you tommorrow.

It’s all about what the text in question is using as it’s “definition” of capitalism and socialism.

Look at Pope St. Paul VI’s guidance.

See you tomorrow.

 

[josie_L]

I never denied that they denounced aspects or rather the excesses of capitalism, but they did not do so in totality as they did with SOCIALISM.

 

[Vouthon]

Then explain this:

“…In Quadragesimo Anno Pope Pius XI referred to the liberal theory of uncontrolled competition as a ‘poisoned spring’ from which have originated all the errors of individualism. The French hierarchy, commenting upon the same pope’s letter on communism, stated: 'By condemning the actions of communist parties, the Church does not support the capitalist regime. It is most necessary that it be realized that in the very essence of capitalism that is to say, in the absolute value that it gives to property without reference to the common good or to the dignity of labor there is a materialism rejected by Christian teaching …”

- U.S. Bishops, Pastoral Letter (1980) 62.

…And what of a regime in which capitalism is dominant? Does it offer a prospect of real welfare? We have no need here to describe the economic and social consequences of this system. You know its characteristic signs and you yourselves labor under the burden it imposes: the excessive crowding of the population into the cities; the ever-growing and all-invading power of big business; the difficult and precarious condition of other industries, especially the crafts and even more especially agriculture; the disquieting spread of unemployment…”

- Venerable Pius XII (QUESTA GRANDE VOSTRA ADUNATA), 1945

 

[josie_L]

Bull, it has been CATEGORICALLY CONDEMNED and I have actually read most of the earlier encyclicals (when Marx wrote Das Capital) regarding socialism by the Church.

And you are wrong about Juncker, i.e., any man who pays hommage to and places statues of men promoting socialism are not acting in accordance with church teaching vis a vis socialism.

 

[josie_L]

Read the article before you condemn it.

 

[Vouthon]

Tomorrow.

Definitions. All about definitions. Please read Pope Paul VI’s quote above from 1971.

 

[josie_L]

I already did. I agreed that they have criticized aspects or excesses of capitalism, but that they did not condemn it in totality.

Nowhere in any encyclical did a pope say that being a capitalist is incompatible with being Christian/good Catholic.

 

[josie_L]

I don’t need to read what he wrote as much as you need to read Pope Pius XI’s Quadragesimo Anno, Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum , and Pope Leo XIII’s Quod Apostolici Muneris .

 

[josie_L]

Then read it and get a belly full of laughs.

 

[DENNYINMI]

I don’t need to read what he wrote as much as you need to read Pope Pius XI’s Quadragesimo Anno , Pope Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum , and Pope Leo XIII’s Quod Apostolici Muneris .

Rerum Novarum is a beautiful interpretation of Church teachings, and it was most reiterated by Saint John Paul II on the 100th year anniversary via the encyclical of Centesimus Annus.

The Church’s primary condemnation of socialism is the referral of persons being a “cog in the wheel”…where the individual is not given to our God given inclinations in participating in creation by way of our gifts…our talents. Man cannot be stifled, he will rise to the occasion of co-creating and in doing so gives to the community at large within a livelihood.

The Church’s primary condemnation of capitalism is the possibility of exploitation with a false belief that bigger is better. How many independent small businesses are gone due to the conglomerates all because we wanted it hot, fast, and we wanted it now? Consumerism is strongly condemned within this model, in demanding things ‘now’ we’ve all but received what we asked for…but at the cost of the butcher and baker now being housed within our local Walmarts.

Capitalism is indeed the means in which trade can be prosperous and good, but within our Church’s teaching it is always circumvented within a judicial framework. Regulations (hailed as bad) is hailed as good within social teaching. This is so because regulations circumvent the potential for greed which is always attempting to rear it’s head.

Within our country we have regulations that are reactive, not proactive which is unfortunate. We have created regulations as a result of negative consequences of our industrial capital, not as a means to prevent them. We currently see many environmental policies being rolled back which is why many species are currently facing extinction. My personal feeling is that within the call for good stewardship we exploit it, pillage it, and now we kill it. Our ecological system cannot handle the greed of our capital endeavors.

 

[josie_L]

For moral’s sake he could have spoken of or highlighted Catholic teaching.

 

[Cathoholic]

(name removed by moderator) . . .

The conversation, such as it is, is becoming ludicrous.

Well (name removed by moderator). It is your choice to keep coming back here.

I think the discussion is fine.

 

[Cathoholic]

Vouthon . . .

But thank you for raising this non-binding resolution that Juncker had nothing to do with because it didn’t emanate from the Commission (which is the EU executive).

Non binding resolutions are only part of the story.

What ELSE is going on Vouthon?

.

Nine Ways of Being Accessory to Another’s Sin
accessory to another’s sin

1. By counsel.
2. By command.
3. By consent.
4. By provocation.
5. By praise or flattery.
6. By concealment.
7. By partaking.
8. By silence.
9. By defense of the ill done.

BeautySoAncient.com – 6 Nov 17

Nine Ways of Being Accessory to Another’s Sin​

Nine Ways of Being Accessory to Another’s Sin.

Politicians sitting by silently,
while innocent babies are murdered is NOT “Catholic”.

Silence in the face of this is one of the 9 ways of being an accessory to another’s sin.

Murdering innocent babies is an unspeakable crime. And politicians will not get a “pass” on this from Jesus.

Sins of omission can have permanent dire consequences.

MATTHEW 25:31-46

The Judgment of the Nations​

31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them,
‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these,
you did it not to me.’ 46
And they will go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[graciew]

As worldviews…they are three distinct worldviews: the Christian, the Capitalist, the Communist.
Capitalism, as an economic system , then,it is the unbridled, excesses that are condemned.

 

[GEddie]

I am.glad that some in the Church are resisting the mass landslide that will, if unstopped, lead back to transcontinental barricades, arms races, and worse.

ICXC NIKA