EU president’s praise for Catholic teaching welcomed as bishops urge citizens to vote in elections to stop "nationalist threat"

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But again you are conflating barter and trade, which are primordial, with the capitalist system of economics which isn’t, but is rather a historical economic system that emerged after the decline of feudalism and didn’t exist before it.

On the former, I agree with you but not in your description of it as capitalism.
 
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And I’m completely right in saying this.
No. Did St. Joseph have tools? Were any of them made of expensive iron or cheaper copper? If either, he sure didn’t mine and smelt them himself. He traded his knowledge and skilled labor for something he valued more in each instance. Did Jesus never get paid for making a table or a chair? Of course he got paid, and he traded the money for flour, wine, cloth and everything else people needed at the time.

Nothing inherently evil in any of it.
 
But again you are conflating barter and trade
They are exactly the same thing, the difference only being that in trade a medium is used. But, as with the spear heads and the bow wood and the whiskey, sometimes the commodity itself is the medium.
 
No. Did St. Joseph have tools?
Your talking, again, about labour, barter, wages, currency and trade.

Those are primordial but they are not “capitalism” which is an economic system that emerged after the decline of medieval feudalism in Europe.
 
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I think the Italian bankers and insurers would dispute that. I think the Hansa would as well. For that matter, has nobody ever found coins from ancient Rome or Carthage? I think they have found a great number of them in the digs of Pompeii and Herculaneum. And didn’t the Greeks use the silver from the mines of Aurium to strike coinage with which to build their fleets? Gee, I think they have even found Roman coins in China.
 
After the failure of communism, should capitalism be the goal for Eastern Europe and the Third World? The answer is complex. If capitalism means a “market” or “free” economy that recognizes the role of business, the market, and private property, as well as free human creativity, then the answer is “yes.” If it means a system in
which economic, religious, and ethical freedom are denied, then the answer is “no.” Marxism failed, but marginalization and exploitation remain, especially in the Third World, just as alienation does in the more advanced countries.
Centesimus Annus (“The Hundredth Year,” Donders translation) , Pope John Paul II, 1991 #42.
The Catholic doctrine of the common good is incompatible with unlimited free-market, or laissez-faire, capitalism, which insists that the distribution of wealth must occur entirely according to the dictates of market forces. This theory presupposes that the common good will take care of itself…This does sometimes happen; but to say that it invariably must happen, as if by a God-given natural law, is a view which can amount to idolatry or a form of economic superstition.
The Common Good and the Catholic Church’s Social Teaching , Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales, 1996 #76.
The Church recognises that market forces, when properly regulated in the name of the common good, can be an efficient mechanism for matching resources to needs in a developed society. No other system has so far shown itself superior in encouraging wealth creation and hence in advancing the prosperity of the community, and enabling poverty and hardship to be more generously relieved…In a market economy the existence of a wide variety of consumer choice means that individual decisions can be made according to individual wants and needs, thus respecting certain aspects of human freedom and following the principle of subsidiarity.
The Common Good and the Catholic Church’s Social Teaching , Catholic Bishops’ Conference of England and Wales, 1996 #78.
 
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For that matter, has nobody ever found coins from ancient Rome or Carthage?
Again you are conflating currency, labour, wages, barter and trade which have existed in almost every premodern society; with capitalism, which is a specific economic and social system that emerged from the breakup of medieval feudalism in the 15th and 16th centuries and then with the spread of industrialization.
 
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I truly don’t buy this. Has the Encyclopedia never heard of Medieval fairs, at which traders from all over came to places where people would assemble to buy goods of all sorts, and bankers would often finance those purchases.

Do they not realize that medieval princes and kings often borrowed money from bankers? Do they not know, e.g., that the Fourth Crusade itself was financed by Florentine bankers?

I don’t doubt that capitalism got a large boost (and distortion in its earlier days) post-Feudalism and post-Renaissance. But capitalism was ancient even when Rome was founded.
The Catholic doctrine of the common good is incompatible with unlimited free-market, or laissez-faire, capitalism, which insists that the distribution of wealth must occur entirely according to the dictates of market forces
I doubt there’s one American out of a quarter million who really believes in laissez-faire capitalism.
 
I truly don’t buy this. Has the Encyclopedia never heard of Medieval fairs,
That’s called bartering and trading. Not capitalist economics.

On this, we will need to agree to disagree but I’m with the vast majority of economic historians on this one.
 
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But capitalism was ancient even when Rome was founded.
No, ancient Roman economics were based around a system of patronage and clientelism.

The Roman economy was not based on capital but on slave labour, it was a slave economy. Capitalism requires free markets, one of which being the labor market, incidentally.

It was an agrarian and slave based economy. Agriculture and trade dominated Roman economic fortunes, supplemented by very small scale industrial production.

Oh, and there was no central bank to monitor the money supply and control economic conditions, and practically no regulation of the banking system.
 
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Yes, I believe that as well, what I can’t understand is why some people seem to think capitalism is condemned in like manner as socialism was, i.e., rejected in toto??

It wasn’t.
 
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Coinage was very widely used in the Medieval period, and fairs, to hire mercenaries, to dower brides, all kinds of things. In fact, the old English coinage, pennies, shillings and so on, date from the Medieval period.

Of some interest to some, it is generally believed that women in the Medieval period (and beyond) could own nothing, could inherit nothing. Actually, while it was the male heirs who got the land (they had to appear fully armed and horsed for battle at the lord’s summons) the daughters got all the moveables, which included the coinage. Since the sons would be cash-poor, they would naturally try to marry some young lady who had coin wealth. Young ladies without homes of their own would seek out young men who inherited land but needed money with which to buy things like armor and destriers.

Not the worst arrangement.
 
You wrote:
In the above encyclical, Pope St. John Paul II states unequivocally and incontrovertibly that “capitalism” is a reversal of the divine order laid down by God in the Book of Genesis and he moreover reiterates, and this ABSOLUTELY crucial, that “ precisely this reversal of order should rightly be called “capitalism” ”.
But here is a more detailed quote explaining what he meant when he was refering to capitalism:
Man is treated as an instrument of production, whereas he–alone, independent of the work he does–ought to be treated as the effective subject of work and its true maker and creator. Precisely this reversal of order, whatever the program or name under which it occurs, should rightly be called “capitalism”…Everybody knows > that capitalism has a definite historical meaning as a system, an economic and social system, opposed to “socialism” or “communism.” But in light of the analysis of the fundamental reality of the whole economic process–first and foremost of the production structure that work is–it should be recognized that the error of > early capitalism can be repeated wherever people are treated on the same level as the whole complex of the material means of production, as an instrument and not in accordance with the true dignity of their work.
Laborem Exercens (“On Human Work”) , Pope John Paul II, 1981 #30.
 
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Whoever said a central bank is necessary to capitalism? Capitalism existed in England and elsewhere well before there was any central banking system.

Banking itself is ancient.


And I’m sorry, but Roman industry was pretty significant. One remembers that prior to and during WWII, Mussolini’s need for iron and steel was met by “mining” the old Roman smelting facilities along the Italian shores, particularly at the mouth of the Tiber. Roman smelting was inefficient compared to modern smelting, and Mussolini “mined” for years the slag heaps and “junk iron” piles the Romans left in absolutely massive quantity.
 
My point being he was refering to early capitalism, a capitalism which was unfettered and individualistic, i.e., he is not condemning all forms of capitalism especially if that capitalism is tethered by justice and charity.

Liberalism capitalism and/or unrestrained capitalism is what is being condemned.
 
He explicitly says that the “reversal” he is talking about should rightly be called “capitalism”.

And thank you for flagging his point that I referred to earlier about “early capitalism”, which undermines your and Ridgerunner’s contention that capitalism has always existed and predates feudalism.

Which, needless to say, is not the consensus in economic origins theory either, let alone in the estimation of Pope John Paul II.
 
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At the time that he wrote this, no doubt the consensus was that capitalism arose in modern times, however, that theory has been eroded in recent times.

The interpretation of history doesn not always remain static, i.e., discoveries are made, new paradigms are pursued. . .etc.
 
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