Eucharist - Please help me understand

[Carlan]

In response, please go back to the iron sharpening iron idea for the purpose to grow our love for God as fellow Christians. We are brothers, or at least seperated brothers, or step brothers, or something like that.

Proverbs 27:17

Iron sharpens iron, and one man sharpens another.

Right you are, I stand corrected,:imsorry:C

 

[po18guy]

Here is another follow up on ECT. I suggest that we all read it.

christianitytoday.com/ct/2009/januaryweb-only/103-51.0.html

Mostly a good read, but like your sig, it does not tell the complete story and might lead some to believe that the Catholic Church is changing. Nothing is further from the truth. The polemics are being toned down in the interest of Christian unity, shared beliefs are being stressed, but the fulness of God’s revealed truth will not be compromised. We are still saved by grace through faith. Always have been. But, faith without works is dead. Always has been. Period. That is precisely where Luther was wrong. Why did he want to jettison the Letter of James - which is Sacred Scripture?

The error of Catholic leadership actions lead to the error of Luther’s teachings. Only by a charitable presentation of revealed truth will there ever be Christian unity.

 

[po18guy]

Here’s part of the article above. You can read it in context by the link above:

The timing of Neuhaus’s and Dulles’s deaths is really significant when you realize that Pope Benedict on November 19 in what was otherwise a routine audience in St. Peter’s square, gave a homily on justification and fully embraced the position that Evangelicals and Catholics Together had taken [in the 1997 document, “Gift of Salvation”]. He didn’t identify it as such, but that’s what he did.

Said position being completely consistent with Catholic teaching. It is the understanding of that teaching which is clearer.

Eleven years after that document was written, the Pope, the head of the church, concluded his homily by saying Luther was right, so long as you don’t exclude charity, that is love, and the works that flow from love. Which of course none of us does.

But Luther tried to exclude charity! He wanted to censor the bible by ripping out the Letter of James - Sacred Scripture! This is not an admission that Luther’s sola fide was right. It was, and is wrong.

Almost at the same time that statement was issued, the two Catholics who were willing to say they agreed with what the reformers meant when they said sola fide died. It’s as if “Okay, you finished your task. The big issue that divided us in the Reformation has now been settled, so you guys can come home and rest.”

We must note here that this is a protestant source that wrote this. Methinks any triumphant jubilation is misplaced and is short lived. Nothing of the sort occurred. It was semantics, and not substance that changed.

I see the point that you are trying to make. And, I completely understand your reason for making it. It’s just that you celebrate what you believe to be the Catholic Church caving to protestant beliefs. That cannot happen, or Christianity will disappear from the face of the earth, as its foundation will have been destroyed.

 

[Carlan]

po18guy and all,
This morning I just want to thank you and all the wonderful Apologists in this forum. You have taught me so much over these past months since I acquired this means

of communication, Ha! Fancy this 83 year oldie admitting that! And also,at the same time,
I want to thank all of our separated brothers and sisters in Christ for their appreciated

(name removed by moderator)ut into Catholic anwers, It is as Adam and Guy said
we are here in Christ to sharpen each other. Thank you again and God bless us all. Carlan

1

 

[2nd_Adam]

Mostly a good read, but like your sig, it does not tell the complete story and might lead some to believe that the Catholic Church is changing. Nothing is further from the truth. The polemics are being toned down in the interest of Christian unity, shared beliefs are being stressed, but the fulness of God’s revealed truth will not be compromised. We are still saved by grace through faith. Always have been. But, faith without works is dead. Always has been. Period. That is precisely where Luther was wrong. Why did he want to jettison the Letter of James - which is Sacred Scripture?

The error of Catholic leadership actions lead to the error of Luther’s teachings. Only by a charitable presentation of revealed truth will there ever be Christian unity.

We actually need to first learn what the other side actually believes for a meaningful discussion. Here is Luther’s famous quote:

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.” - Martin Luther

 

[po18guy]

We actually need to first learn what the other side actually believes for a meaningful discussion. Here is Luther’s famous quote:

“There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow.” - Martin Luther

Our job is to learn our own faith first, and only then to examine the faith of others. Know that Luther’s teaching was, in many cases, distinctly Catholic in nature, since he was a Catholic priest and theologian. However, once Luther rejected Church leadership in favor of his own leadership, teachings quickly morphed into the directions of Calvin and Zwingli, as well as innumerable others, who disagreed with Luther. This is spiritual entropy. It is also precisely the problem with all of protestantism. What ECT has done is to re-emphasize and re-establish knowledge of our common beliefs, which is very useful for both ecumenism as well as serving the cause of Christian unity.

From the viewpoint of someone who has come into the Catholic Church, the main task toward Christian unity is for non-Catholics to deny themselves and take up their crosses in open-hearted study of the truth of the Catholic faith. ECT has been a great help in this regard, but we are not true to the Lord if we do not lead you, in all charity, toward the fulness of faith as found in the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Simply as a practical matter, the Catholic Church is the last and best hope for Christian unity in the world, regardless of whether or not you currently agree with her teaching. We can argue the reasons until the Lord calls, but facts is facts, so to speak.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Our job is to learn our own faith first, and only then to examine the faith of others. Know that Luther’s teaching was, in many cases, distinctly Catholic in nature, since he was a Catholic priest and theologian. However, once Luther rejected Church leadership in favor of his own leadership, teachings quickly morphed into the directions of Calvin and Zwingli, as well as innumerable others, who disagreed with Luther. This is spiritual entropy. It is also precisely the problem with all of protestantism. What ECT has done is to re-emphasize and re-establish knowledge of our common beliefs, which is very useful for both ecumenism as well as serving the cause of Christian unity.

From the viewpoint of someone who has come into the Catholic Church, the main task toward Christian unity is for non-Catholics to deny themselves and take up their crosses in open-hearted study of the truth of the Catholic faith. ECT has been a great help in this regard, but we are not true to the Lord if we do not lead you, in all charity, toward the fulness of faith as found in the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Simply as a practical matter, the Catholic Church is the last and best hope for Christian unity in the world, regardless of whether or not you currently agree with her teaching. We can argue the reasons until the Lord calls, but facts is facts, so to speak.

Christ’s peace be with you.

I think that is a stacked perspective in regards to ECT and would not be acceptable by Protestants who seek unity. Do you understand how ECT first started? You cannot have a meaningful ecumenical discussion if you are not willing to learn from the other Christian community. To state something is fact does not make it true.

 

[po18guy]

I think that is a stacked perspective in regards to ECT and would not be acceptable by Protestants who seek unity. Do you understand how ECT first started? You cannot have a meaningful ecumenical discussion if you are not willing to learn from the other Christian community. To state something is fact does not make it true.

The ECT is a man-made agreement between men. It concerns the truth, but it is not the truth. The truth remains Jesus Christ. Again, and this is to be expected, you are assuming that the Catholic position is wrong. History. Dig into history and you will convert just as Fr. Richard John Newhouse did. Just as John Henry Cardinal Newman did. Just as innumerable others have done.

I am responding to a biased perspective on the ECT, since all of your sources are protestant based. The document is the document. Just like the bible. However, it is the interpretation of that document that makes all of the difference. And, I am seeing a typical protestant bias (of course) in that interpretation. It wants very hard to see compromise and admission of error from Catholicism. That has not occurred and will not occur. The immense job of the Catholic Church is to lead all souls on this earth, especially you, to the fulness of truth.

We have a responsibility to proclaim the fulness of the Gospel message. All Christian faith traditions have truth in them. The defensible Catholic position is that she possesses the fulness of truth. Anyway, all of this is off topic.

As to the Eucharist, I shall continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will illumine all intellects to the presence of Christ in the consecrated bread and wine. Amen.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I think you need to read Pope Benedict’s paper on justification, confirming that faith alone is true. You guys need to break down your walls… I started a new thread on this dividing line which appears to be eliminated. In addition, Pope Benedict has an Augustinian theology too.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=378445

Pope Benedict has a Catholic theology and his paper on justification did not support the protestant understanding of salvation by faith alone.

His statement is consistent with Catholic teaching, as well as some protestant teaching, but it is nothing new.

Pope Benedict spoke on 2008-11-19 at a General Audience
“For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, **conformed **to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love.”

 

[Carlan]

The ECT is a man-made agreement between men. It concerns the truth, but it is not the truth. The truth remains Jesus Christ. Again, and this is to be expected, you are assuming that the Catholic position is wrong. History. Dig into history and you will convert just as Fr. Richard John Newhouse did. Just as John Henry Cardinal Newman did. Just as innumerable others have done.

I am responding to a biased perspective on the ECT, since all of your sources are protestant based. The document is the document. Just like the bible. However, it is the interpretation of that document that makes all of the difference. And, I am seeing a typical protestant bias (of course) in that interpretation. It wants very hard to see compromise and admission of error from Catholicism. That has not occurred and will not occur. The immense job of the Catholic Church is to lead all souls on this earth, especially you, to the fulness of truth.

We have a responsibility to proclaim the fulness of the Gospel message. All Christian faith traditions have truth in them. The defensible Catholic position is that she possesses the fulness of truth. Anyway, all of this is off topic.

As to the Eucharist, I shall continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will illumine all intellects to the presence of Christ in the consecrated bread and wine. Amen.

Well said, I love you all and so does Jesus!

 

[2nd_Adam]

The ECT is a man-made agreement between men. It concerns the truth, but it is not the truth. The truth remains Jesus Christ. Again, and this is to be expected, you are assuming that the Catholic position is wrong. History. Dig into history and you will convert just as Fr. Richard John Newhouse did. Just as John Henry Cardinal Newman did. Just as innumerable others have done.

I am responding to a biased perspective on the ECT, since all of your sources are protestant based. The document is the document. Just like the bible. However, it is the interpretation of that document that makes all of the difference. And, I am seeing a typical protestant bias (of course) in that interpretation. It wants very hard to see compromise and admission of error from Catholicism. That has not occurred and will not occur. The immense job of the Catholic Church is to lead all souls on this earth, especially you, to the fulness of truth.

We have a responsibility to proclaim the fulness of the Gospel message. All Christian faith traditions have truth in them. The defensible Catholic position is that she possesses the fulness of truth. Anyway, all of this is off topic.

As to the Eucharist, I shall continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will illumine all intellects to the presence of Christ in the consecrated bread and wine. Amen.

Please post an article on ECT from the Catholic perspective.

 

[po18guy]

Please post an article on ECT from the Catholic perspective.

The ECT, until you raised the issue here, was not on an average Catholic’s radar. It is an ecumenical administrative document that, while remaining absolutely true, has no bearing on Catholic teaching. But it does have bearing on Catholic action, and you see that here in our invitations to you.

Notice that in your quote of the Pope, he spoke the tiniest and most powerful word in the English language: IF. Since he spoke, various sources, seeking a crack in the wall of the Catholic monoillith, have cherry picked that quote, as they sometimes do with the scriptures, and are claiming that Catholicism is moving toward the protestant view. This is not true.

In truth, the importance of the ECT is that it shows protestants the truth of what the Catholic Church teaches. It dispels centuries of myths, allegations and lies about her. For Christian unity to exist, someone must deny themselves and take up their cross. The Catholic Church, which is the only hope in this world for Christian unity, and which possesses the fulness of revelation, cannot and will not move. It can welcome. It can teach. It can invite. But, it cannot compromise, or it sells Jesus out as surely as Judas did. Neither of us wants that.

 

[po18guy]

I searched the USCCB (United States Congress of Catholic Bishops) website and could locate no reference to the ECT. It remains an extremely valuable document and effort in the realm of Christian unity.

What do you think of the “Apostle’s Creed” that is in the ECT? How does your faith tradition view it?