Eucharist - Please help me understand

[jmcrae]

Gabriel of 12;5692784:

I don’t want to get off the thread topic, but I needed to respond to some of the posts. As you can see, the Apostle Paul was passionate about the gospel over and above all things, including communion. Actually, the Lord’s Supper is a reminder of the gospel.

Actually, the Eucharist is that same Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity that was crucified on the Cross, which, if we don’t partake of it, then we are not members of His Covenant, just as those Jews who do not eat of the lamb of Passover are not partakers of the Covenant of Moses.

The Eucharist is the Gospel, and eating it is how we join ourselves to Christ’s Body.

 

[MrS]

2nd Adam;5692812:

Actually, the Eucharist is that same Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity that was crucified on the Cross, which, if we don’t partake of it, then we are not members of His Covenant, just as those Jews who do not eat of the lamb of Passover are not partakers of the Covenant of Moses.

The Eucharist is

the Gospel, and eating it is how we join ourselves to Christ’s Body.

After all Jesus did say “…which will be offered up for you…”

.

 

[PJM]

=2nd Adam;5697017]That is very accurate. For myself, I am more protective about the contents of the gospel than anything else (Gal 1). I believe if we partake in communion within the warning of the Apostle Paul, we are being obedient according to our conscience. All of the positions are valid. However, some churches who only see communion as an ordinance as compared to being a means of grace, some can partake in communion in a very , irreverent and flippant way.

***If as you say “all positions are valid” then TRUTH cannot [and for you obviously does not and will not] be a reality. So now you have remade the Bible and the entire Universe. One = One now equals ? Black can also be white, and you are me.

Interesting theory. Very convienant too. Sin is good, there is no God [but many gods] down is up [if you want it to be] and Satan and sin are myths cause threr are NO FACTS!***

hope you stay forever in this world, cause you sure don’t have anything to look forward to in the next. BUT Hey, that JUST my opinion

 

[PJM]

=jmcrae;5698361]

Actually, the Eucharist is that same Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity that was crucified on the Cross, which, if we don’t partake of it, then we are not members of His Covenant, just as those Jews who do not eat of the lamb of Passover are not partakers of the Covenant of Moses.

 

[jmcrae]

Friend that is a very perceiptive understanding. Thanks for saring it.

It comes of teaching First Holy Communion classes to seven year olds - the children taught me that.

 

[2nd_Adam]

***If as you say “all positions are valid” then TRUTH cannot [and for you obviously does not and will not] be a reality. So now you have remade the Bible and the entire Universe. One = One now equals ? Black can also be white, and you are me.

Interesting theory. Very convienant too. Sin is good, there is no God [but many gods] down is up [if you want it to be] and Satan and sin are myths cause threr are NO FACTS!***

hope you stay forever in this world, cause you sure don’t have anything to look forward to in the next. BUT Hey, that JUST my opinion

Here is the Word of God which should help us all share with the right Christian attitude:

So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. - Paul - 2 tim

 

[JonNC]

My apology to the OP in advance for my minor swerve off topic.

=MrS;5698020]Not quite. Consubstantiation, not Transubstantiation.

Hi MrS
I was responding to the OP, whose question did not indicate a need for the distinctions of Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox, or any other communion’s expressions of the Real Presence.

It is indeed true that the Lutheran Confessions expresses the Real Presence in terms of Sacramental Union (not consubstantiation), and that it is a different expression than Transubstantiation. The fact of SU and Lutheran belief is that the bread and wine become the true, substantial body and blood of Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit and the speaking of the words of institution by the Pastor.

The Lutheran position is that Jesus is present during their service, then not present at the end (in the host.)

This is not entirely true, either. The Lutheran belief is well explained here:
helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lutortjointtext.html#euch

1. For both Lutherans and Orthodox, proper use of the eucharistic elements is dictated by Christ’s own words in Holy Scripture: “Take and eat, this is my body; take and drink, this is my blood…” (Mt 26,27f, par.). Those who believe Christ’s words receive his body and blood for their salvation.** Lutherans do not recognize salvific qualities in the elements when these are used for non-eucharistic purposes. That position need not exclude a belief that the change of the elements into body and blood of Christ is definitive, however**. Orthodox insist on the permanence and irreversibility of that change.

However, the Lutherans also lack the Apostolic succession and valid ordination that comes from the Apostles. So no matter what the claim, it cannot be a valid Eucharist in the manner of John 6 or the Last Supper.

I would expect no other expression of faith from you as a Catholic. It is what the Catholic Church teaches about A.S. So, just a couple of points.

1. Some Lutherans do have A.S. In addition to some in Northern Europe, there are some ELCA pastors who have received succession through Anglicans lines, supported by the “dutch touch”. The CC can deny their validity, but they are there, nonetheless.
2. The practice of presbyter ordination goes back before the Reformation and was practiced in the Catholic Church in some areas. As you might expect, Lutherans view presbyter ordination as quite valid, as are our clergy and our sacraments. The Lutheran Confessions do confirm the importance of A.S. as desirable.
3. As Christ’s saving grace being present in our Eucharist, we are as sure of His real and substantial presence in ours, as we are of His presence in yours. Here is what Cardinal Ratzinger said about Lutheran Eucharist:

I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.(166)

usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

Jon

 

[Carlan]

(Adams Quote) As you can see, the Apostle Paul was passionate about the gospel over and above all things, including communion. Actually, the Lord’s Supper is a reminder of the gospel. (endQuote)
No Adam it is as jmcrae says…The Eucharist is the Gospel. Carlan.

 

[PJM]

=2nd Adam;5698560]Here is the Word of God which should help us all share with the right Christian attitude:

So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. - Paul - 2 tim

Saint Paul [who got to be a Saint] through the CC by practicing all that he preached.

*1 Tim. 2: 3 "This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. *

• 2 Cor. 13: 8 “For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.” *

Eph. 2: 4 “There is one body [One Church] and one Spirit,[One God] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [Jesus who founded the One true Church] one faith, [Catholic] one baptism, [By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift”

Gal. 2: 5 “to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you”

Paul wrote all of these and more on the issue of TRUTH!

***Jojn 17: 16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.[The desires of jesus are the accomplished desires of God!] As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. ***

So Adam, lets share the entire TRUTH! That is what Jesus would want:thumbsup:

 

[MrS]

It is indeed true that the Lutheran Confessions expresses the Real Presence in terms of Sacramental Union (not consubstantiation), and that it is a different expression than Transubstantiation. The fact of SU and Lutheran belief is that the bread and wine become the true, substantial body and blood of Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit and the speaking of the words of institution by the Pastor.

This is not entirely true, either. The Lutheran belief is well explained here:
helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lutortjointtext.html#euch

I would expect no other expression of faith from you as a Catholic. It is what the Catholic Church teaches about A.S. So, just a couple of points.

1. Some Lutherans do have A.S. In addition to some in Northern Europe, there are some ELCA pastors who have received succession through Anglicans lines, supported by the “dutch touch”. The CC can deny their validity, but they are there, nonetheless.
2. The practice of presbyter ordination goes back before the Reformation and was practiced in the Catholic Church in some areas. As you might expect, Lutherans view presbyter ordination as quite valid, as are our clergy and our sacraments. The Lutheran Confessions do confirm the importance of A.S. as desirable.
3. As Christ’s saving grace being present in our Eucharist, we are as sure of His real and substantial presence in ours, as we are of His presence in yours. Here is what Cardinal Ratzinger said about Lutheran Eucharist:

usccb.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

Jon

I understand your love for the Lord’s Supper. It is “expressed” in many faith communities. From the Catholic perspective, you can claim a validity, but it is not there, nonetheless

As for the good Cardinal, his words are fine, and true. But he does not even imply that you have valid orders, the priestly power to confect, nor the True Presence found only in the Catholic Church.

Now, had Luther been a bishop with the power to ordain, we might have had a sticky mess. God took that obstacle or problem away before it started. And when someone, even a Catholic Bishop defects or in any way leaves the Catholic Church for another faith community, his priestly functions will be muted. So the influx of what you hope are bishops with valid succession are also a mute point.

Granted, it might be easier for me to be a Lutheran (less obligation/responsibilites on my part), but God’s plan was One Faith… that we might be one. Please come home.

.

 

[JonNC]

=MrS;5699756]I understand your love for the Lord’s Supper.

Thank you. I understand yours, too, and honor it.

From the Catholic perspective, you can claim a validity, but it is not there, nonetheless

I understand your Catholic perspective, respect it highly, but disagree.

As for the good Cardinal, his words are fine, and true. But he does not even imply that you have valid orders, the priestly power to confect, nor the True Presence found only in the Catholic Church.

Not the Orthodox? Or PNCC? What about those Lutheran communities that did have Bishops follow?

Granted, it might be easier for me to be a Lutheran (less obligation/responsibilites on my part), but God’s plan was One Faith… that we might be one. Please come home.

Can’t imagine why you’d think it easier.
I agree he wants us all to be one. Pray we all may be reconciled.

Jon

 

[MrS]

Can’t imagine why you’d think it easier.
I agree he wants us all to be one. Pray we all may be reconciled.

Jon

Holy Days of Obligation
Sunday Mass Attendance a must
Reception of the Real Presence only in the state of Grace
Obedience to the Magisterium

And then there are the “optional” things which only we have, like Adoration, Lenten/Easter requirements etc. Other faith communities may have “borrowed” some of these, but that is the extent of their commitment.

I think that being a committed Catholic (East or West) is the hardest - and most rewarding - thing to do.

Yes I pray for unity… please come home.

.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam;5692812:

Actually, the Eucharist is that same Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity that was crucified on the Cross, which, if we don’t partake of it, then we are not members of His Covenant, just as those Jews who do not eat of the lamb of Passover are not partakers of the Covenant of Moses.

The Eucharist is

the Gospel, and eating it is how we join ourselves to Christ’s Body.

The Catholic Faith is quite interesting. I am united to Christ by being ingrafted into Christ by the Spirit through faith in the gospel (John 3, Rom 6). Are you guys saying that you are not joined to Christ’s body prior to partaking in the Eucharist? How often do you need to partake in the Eucharist to remain joined to Christ’s body? It’s interesting that you posted that the Eucharist is the gospel. Do you believe Protestants and Catholics have different gospels? For Protestants, the gospel is the good news about His Son. It is through the instrument of faith that we are united to Him, and not by partaking in communion for the Evangelical Christian. Do you guys understand what the word Evangelical means? We are the ones with beautiful feet.

The Message of Salvation to All

For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. - Rom 10

 

[2nd_Adam]

(Adams Quote) As you can see, the Apostle Paul was passionate about the gospel over and above all things, including communion. Actually, the Lord’s Supper is a reminder of the gospel. (endQuote)
No Adam it is as jmcrae says…The Eucharist is the Gospel. Carlan.

I know I can find the word gospel in my English Protestant translations. Do you have the word “Eucharist” in your English Catholic translations? Does the Catholic Church teach that the gospel is reallly the Eucharist? Isn’t the gospel simply the good news of God that we proclaim and preach to believers and unbelievers alike?

For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! - Paul

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Paul

 

[Eileen_T]

=jmcrae;5698361]

 

[AdrianP]

This is what I think:This was from a discussion with jews.
This is what I think Orthodox Christians believe: As you said there was sin and death came in because we inherited from Adam. However something happened that started with Moses that brought the Judaism law that Christians call for almost 2000 years OLD LAW and that offered sacrifices as atonement for sins in the temple. Messiah or Jesus or part of God or Son of God similar with Holy Spirit came and offered himself as one sacrifice to God taking with his spotless nature the sins of people.
After the sacrifice Jesus gave to Christians the Holy Communion food for eternal life and something like this is written:
John 6
"54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. "
I think this. So because we are people and because Adam nature is dwelling in us we die. So by taking Holy Communion God will dwell in us and because God’s nature is more powerful than Adam’s nature as we get God’s immortality through this and eternal life. Actually your forefather Abraham wanted to sacrifice his Son but God did actually this, sacrificing a part of himself so people and God can came closer.
This is the message of following thread:
monachos.net/content/forum/showthread.php?t=6114

 

[Carlan]

I know I can find the word gospel in my English Protestant translations. Do you have the word “Eucharist” in your English Catholic translations?

---

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” - Paul

 Come now Adam, I say you are being being some what argumentative.:tsktsk::love:

Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here is another sincere question that I have. In the upper room when Jesus instituted the Eucharist, did Jesus convert the bread and wine into His acutual flesh and literal blood for the 12 disciples to partake. How effectual was the Eucharist for Judas? Or did Judas actually partake in the elements?

 

[Carlan]

For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! - Paul [end Quote]

Adam, of course you know we preach the Gospel. John 52 and following."anyone who does eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and l :heaven: will raise him up on the last day’… _ Jesus Christ.:heaven: Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

It seems that the offiical Catholic teaching that Eucharist is the gospel. Can we interchange the word gospel with the word Eucharist everytime the gospel is mentioned? Let’s see if that makes sense.

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the Eucharist ( gospel) I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

I believe the Eucharist reminds us of the gospel, or through communon we proclaim the gospel to us as Chrsitians, but it is not the gopsel that Paul proclaimed. We do share some common belief. I believe the gospel should be proclaimed to Christians each and every day, just as you believe the Eucharist should be received each and every day.