Eucharist - Please help me understand

[MrS]

Here is another sincere question that I have. In the upper room when Jesus instituted the Eucharist, did Jesus convert the bread and wine into His acutual flesh and literal blood for the 12 disciples to partake. How effectual was the Eucharist for Judas? Or did Judas actually partake in the elements?

Well, I think that ALL translations of the Scriptures do say “… this is…which will be given up for you…”

Does “is” mean “is”??

I believe, without looking, that Judas left before the others received.

While you are investigating this subject, I will ask you to compare the feeding of the 5000, the verses in John 6 40ff, and then Mark 6, verses 30 and following. Let me know what you think, and if you think there is a possible connection between the three.

Thanks.

.

 

[Carlan]

Dear Adam, Good day! Carlan

 

[2nd_Adam]

Well, I think that ALL translations of the Scriptures do say “… this is…which will be given up for you…”

Does “is” mean “is”??

I believe, without looking, that Judas left before the others received.

While you are investigating this subject, I will ask you to compare the feeding of the 5000, the verses in John 6 40ff, and then Mark 6, verses 30 and following. Let me know what you think, and if you think there is a possible connection between the three.

Thanks.

.

Good points! I will have to look them up after a business appointment. I think the strenght of the Eucharist from my perspective, is that the gospel is proclaimed to Catholic Christians at every mass. IMO… the gospel should be proclaimed in the pulpit at every sermon (weekly minimum). Through communion, the gospel is being proclaimed in a tangible visual way. IMO… communion is much more than a memorial. It is a means of grace and maybe much more.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Dear Adam, Good day! Carlan

The sign of the cross is cool! Is it suppose to remind us of the gospel?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Well, I think that ALL translations of the Scriptures do say “… this is…which will be given up for you…”

Does “is” mean “is”??

I
.

The account in John does not appear to have the “which will be given up for you” clause. I think Jesus was preaching to receive him by faith at that particular moment. Sinners were ingrafted into Christ prior to Calvary. I believe OT Saints were saved through the person and work of Christ

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

 

[MrS]

2nd_Adam:
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.[/quot[/COLOR]e]

Wow , how many times can He refer to Himself as flesh… and that we should eat it.

Just like the Jews in captivity… on the night of Passover… had to EAT the Lamb to be saved.

hhmmm.

.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam;5701701:
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

The Words of Eternal Life

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.[/quot[/COLOR]e]

Wow , how many times can He refer to Himself as flesh… and that we should eat it.

Just like the Jews in captivity… on the night of Passover… had to EAT the Lamb to be saved.

hhmmm.

.

How were the OT Saints saved from Abraham to John the Baptist? And were the disciples united to Christ prior to His death and ressurection? I thought Catholics believed that a sinner is born again through baptism and not the Eucharist.

 

[Carlan]

The sign of the cross is cool! Is it suppose to remind us of the gospel?

It’s nice that you think it is cool! Did you know it is the prayer of the Trinity? No of course you did’nt . How could you since the term , that is the actual word, we use for Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not used in the Gospel,Carlan

1

 

[MrS]

MrS;5701802:

How were the OT Saints saved from Abraham to John the Baptist? And were the disciples united to Christ prior to His death and ressurection? I thought Catholics believed that a sinner is born again through baptism and not the Eucharist.

under the Old Covenant. The New Covenant replaces and fulfills the Old.

.

 

[FCEGM]

Actually, I partook in the Eucharist with my college roomate over 25 years ago. He twin brother in now a Catholic Priest. I used to attend mass with him. I did not know I was not allowed to partake at the time as a non-Catholic Christian.

Thank you, Adam, for clarifying this.

 

[Carlan]

In all of Christendom, there are various views of communion (Eucharist, Lord’s Supper). I believe the Orthodox and Catholic churches believe in the presence of the actual flesh and blood. I’m okay with Christians having their own understanding of communion according to their Christian conscience before God. But why do Catholics seem to be the most aggressive in defending their view? I would like to discuss this in a manner that pleases God. What’s so important about the Catholic view?

Eucharist - Please help me understand

What is frustrating to me about your presence in this forum, Adam,is that you asked the

people here to help you understand our belief in the Eucharist. They did that,and very well I must say.
I wait for you to tell us, “Fair enough,but sorry I don’t buy it”,and off you go on your way.

Instead you stick around telling us how wrong we are and that we do not preach Christ’s

Gospel.

I don’t think you know as much about the way Catholics practice the Gospel, as you say you do.

My frustration is that you are not accepting what we are telling you we believe.Instead you have proceeded to tell us what you think we should believe.

Can anyone blame me for becoming short and impatient with you?:shrug:Carlan-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Contarini]

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.”

I think Luther was right and Zwingli was wrong on this one. “Spirit” vs. “flesh” here is not a Platonic immaterial/material contrast, but rather a contrast between the carnal person and the believer illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

If Zwingli were right regarding this, it would be hard to explain why the Docetists were wrong. Why would the physical Incarnation or Resurrection matter? Those involve “flesh” too. It can’t be talking about “physical” vs. “just in your mind.”

Ediwn

 

[Contarini]

Here is another sincere question that I have. In the upper room when Jesus instituted the Eucharist, did Jesus convert the bread and wine into His acutual flesh and literal blood for the 12 disciples to partake. How effectual was the Eucharist for Judas? Or did Judas actually partake in the elements?

Unworthy reception of Christ’s Body and Blood leads to condemnation. St. Paul is very clear on that. I don’t see why you would see this as a difficulty at all.

But I don’t believe that the Eucharist is Christ’s “literal” flesh and blood. His Body and Blood are not found there under their natural species or their natural dimensions, to use Thomistic language. It is a sacramental presence, and I disagree with Roman Catholics on how much room for disagreement there is regarding how we interpret this. But I agree with them that the Real Presence is a central doctrine of the Christian faith.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I know I can find the word gospel in my English Protestant translations. Do you have the word “Eucharist” in your English Catholic translations?

I’m not sure why you ask this. You might as well ask whether we have the word “evangel” in the English Bible. We usually use “Gospel” instead. Similarly, “Eucharistia” is usually translated as “thanksgiving.” Certainly the word “eucharistia” in Greek often doesn’t refer to what we normally mean by the Eucharist, but there is a connection.

Does the Catholic Church teach that the gospel is reallly the Eucharist? Isn’t the gospel simply the good news of God that we proclaim and preach to believers and unbelievers alike?

As you yourself said, the Eucharist is a physical expression of the Gospel. I think the problem is that you seem to think that a “physical expression” is something inferior. Again, this points back to your Zwinglian/Platonic/Gnostic/Docetist interpretation of John 6.

Edwin

 

[ncgolf]

In all of Christendom, there are various views of communion (Eucharist, Lord’s Supper). I believe the Orthodox and Catholic churches believe in the presence of the actual flesh and blood. I’m okay with Christians having their own understanding of communion according to their Christian conscience before God. But why do Catholics seem to be the most aggressive in defending their view? I would like to discuss this in a manner that pleases God. What’s so important about the Catholic view?

The Eucharist IS Christ present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. How could any Christian not defend Christ. The presence of Christ in the Eucharist is no different than if He were physically present before you. The only difference being one can be seen with the natural senses and the other through supernatural faith but it is the same Christ.

Aggresive … maybe but thousands of Catholics have gone to their deaths for believing it … it seems the aggresiveness is from those who would want to quash this belief.

 

[PJM]

=Eileen T;5701090]

PJM - Please, please, stop using BOLD

for (almost) every post, it is the equivalent of shouting, and I for one tend to skim posts, however interesting, that are:
i) all bold
ii) have large fonts and colors, and
iii) are really long with large blocks of texts.

Posts read better if they are broken into paragraphs of 2 or 3 sentences or so.

Sincere thanks,

But actually I am shouting to be heard.

I do try to break up my post, and use color to hopefully make reading easier.

But I’ll try it your way for a bit a see what happens.

Love and prayers,

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It seems that the offiical Catholic teaching that Eucharist is the gospel. Can we interchange the word gospel with the word Eucharist everytime the gospel is mentioned? Let’s see if that makes sense.

Now I would remind you, brothers, of the Eucharist ( gospel) I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

Gabriel of 12;

I can understand your new interpretations to the scriptures of late, but please dont apply them to scriptures and faith from Jesus Christ and his apostles.

For your information; Eucharist comes from the greek translation Eucharista which comes from the biblical interpretation of “Thanksgiving”. So any time you read the Words of the bible “giving thanks” or “Thanksgiving” you are litterally reading the original language Eucharista where we get the word Eucharist.

So yes Eucharista is littered in the New and Old testaments. Any questions?

This is why the Eucharist is the Gospel living;

John 1:1
1 ** In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
He was in the beginning with God.
3
3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be
4
through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; **5
14
**And the Word became flesh **9 and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

The gospel you speak of remains on the pages of the letter. The gospel Catholics speak of became flesh and dwells among us.

To the Catholic the entire Word of God became flesh, not just the New testament gospels. Let us be clear here. Please tread carefully when dealing with the mysteries of God, for we will be judged by him for everything we say and do.

Revelations 21:3…"Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people 4 and God himself will always be with them (as their God).

The Catholic church is the bride of Jesus Christ

Revelations 22:17
The Spirit and the bride 11 say, “Come.” Let the hearer say, “Come.” Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water.

This is the same water Jesus mentions to the Samaritan woman at the water well. That gives eternal life and the one who partakes of it will never thirst again.

When one comes to the Father through the sacrificial Eucharist body, blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, this one thirsts no more.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Here is another sincere question that I have. In the upper room when Jesus instituted the Eucharist, did Jesus convert the bread and wine into His acutual flesh and literal blood for the 12 disciples to partake. How effectual was the Eucharist for Judas? Or did Judas actually partake in the elements?

Lets see? Did Jesus lie when he said to the bread “This is my body”? did Jesus lie when he said likewise to the cup of blessing “take drink” **all of you **for this is my blood can you enlighten us and tell us from Jesus original speech “Aramaic” not your english King James version of the bible, if Jesus actually decieved his apostles, or was he speaking the Truth?

]Matthew 20:20
When it was evening, he reclined at table with the Twelve.
21
And while they were eating, he said, “Amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” 11
22
Deeply distressed at this, they began to say to him one after another, “Surely it is not I, Lord?”
23
**He said in reply, “He who has dipped his hand into the dish with me is the one who will betray me.
24
12 The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.”
25
13 Then Judas, his betrayer, said in reply, “Surely it is not I, Rabbi?” He answered, “You have said so.” **

The Eucharistic passover begins after this incident and we know Jesus excuses Judas from the table. What is interesting here is that Judas the betrayer of Jesus dined with Jesus who is the hidden manna at this time. THe Death followed this believer who did not discern his Eucharist who partook of the table with Jesus. Could Judas’s disbelief in Jesus flesh and blood in his Eucharist lead to his betrayal and death, which follows those who partake of the body and blood of Jesus Christ in the Bread and Cup without discerning the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in “The bread that we break, and the Cup of blessing” (see 1Cor.11:23-29)

 

[Carlan]

It seems that the offiical Catholic teaching that Eucharist is I believe the Eucharist reminds us of the gospel, or through communon we proclaim the gospel to us as Chrsitians, but it is not the gopsel that Paul proclaimed. We do share some common belief. I believe the gospel should be proclaimed to Christians each and every day, just as you believe the Eucharist should be received each and every day.

Adam, Excuse me again but I must say, It is not what Jesus said through(the eyes of Paul) or our own interpretation of Paul it is what Jesus says.

As much as we love Paul as a great disciple of Jesus it is after all about Jesus. If we read the Gospel of Matthew and note all the words of Jesus we will truly be enlightened.

BTW, who told you Catholics do not proclaim the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ every day. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is being proclaimed in every Catholic Church in every country of the world somewhere every minute. Carlan

 

[MrS]

Unworthy reception of Christ’s Body and Blood leads to condemnation. St. Paul is very clear on that. I don’t see why you would see this as a difficulty at all.

But I don’t believe that the Eucharist is Christ’s “literal” flesh and blood. His Body and Blood are not found there under their natural species or their natural dimensions, to use Thomistic language. It is a sacramental presence, and I disagree with Roman Catholics on how much room for disagreement there is regarding how we interpret this. But I agree with them that the Real Presence is a central doctrine of the Christian faith.

Edwin

That is your right to exercise your opinion based on what you feel or believe, or have been convicted of.

For 1570 years there was only the Catholic Church declaring what “This is my body” meant.

Then, in 1570 , a booklet was published, written by Christopher Rasperger called “Two Hundred Interpretations of ‘This Is My Body’”

In just 60 years of “reform”, the reformers were already out of control.

Amazing what a God-given mind can concoct

.