Europe fears Scottish independence contagion

[graciew]

Glasgow Yes.
54 %no 46 % yes
23 of 32 counts

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Glasgow will probably go Yes - the margin is what would be important. My guess is Edinburgh and Aberdeen go No. It could still go either way. But I think it’s more likely “No” will prevail. Nervous about Glasgow. It is too early to call.

Looks like this will be an overall victory for the “No” campaign. Both the total turnout and margin of victory for the “Yes” campaign in Glasgow are surprising in how low both are.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Looks like this will be an overall victory for the “No” campaign. Both the total turnout and margin of victory for the “Yes” campaign in Glasgow are surprising in how low both are.

I know - 78% voting in Glasgow. Isn’t that weird? Actually I just turned on the TV (am on BBC feed). I guess it is over - no way Yes can win according to the “experts.”

Well done, Scotland. There sure are a lot of people who did vote Yes though. Very bitter fight too. I read one account where somebody from Ulster said they’d never seen anything like it. That’s bad.

I know you don’t agree with me. But I am for happy for Scotland.

I want to see Edinburgh’s results.

 

[didymus]

According to the BBC it is 55/44 NO with 31 0f 32 districts reporting.
Alex Salmon has slunk away in a private plane.

So that’s that until the next referendum.

I did notice the “No” districts had higher margins (some over 60%) than the “Yes” side.

 

[freeRadical]

Are you being serious?

 

[CatholicWhovian]

According to the BBC it is 55/44 NO with 31 0f 32 districts reporting.
Alex Salmon has slunk away in a private plane.

So that’s that until the next referendum.

I did notice the “No” districts had higher margins (some over 60%) than the “Yes” side.

Well we won’t have another referendum like this for a very, very long time. It’s a once and a lifetime opportunity. They’ve learned a lot from Quebec’s referendums.

Scotland votes NO in the referendum. It stays in the UK.

 

[Portrait]

Dearly beloved friends,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

My commiserations go to Mr. Salmond and the SNP, who evinced a creditable performance given the range of opposition the ‘yes’ camp faced. Full Kudos also to both Mr. Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon, who both fought a good and charitable fight throughout the entire campaign. Congratulations to the independence camp.

Scotland has rejected independence but like the battle of Waterloo the battle for Scotland was a jolly close-run thing. Yesterday’s vote surely revealed a Scotland deeply divided down the middle against itself and healing the hurt will neither be quick or easy. At the heart of this whole matter is an ideological war between those who fervently believe in a more just and equal society and those who only want to put first the interests of the rich and powerful, which shamefully includes punishing the poor, sick and unemployed, as if all of our economic woes were their fault. This conflict is far from over by any means, indeed, it has only just begun in earnest. Moreover, to deal with this deep divide it is imperative that we deal with the corruption of the Westminster political elite. Had Scotland severed its link from this corruption by voting ‘yes’, then many other regions would have been looking increasingly to independence to protect themselves from the corporate aims that Westminster utilises in governing the country.

The immediate political question is now relocated to London and work will commence on drafting a new devolution settlement. However, it will hardly be an easy task reconciling all of the interests, namely the Scots, English, Welsh, Northern Irish and local. Forgive me, dear friends, for sounding rather cynical but I suspect that there will be no ‘deal’ worthy of the name for Scotland and at best it will be thrown a few crumbs. Mr. Cameron may at the present time be uttering some sweet words about reconciliation but I think that his stance will soon harden. The grim reality is that there is no mandate from the English dominated Westminster to give Scotland anything and Mr. Cameron is fully aware of this. Scotland will probably get swept aside for all intents and purposes, for there is no reason for the status quo to radically change. The ruling elite has won and all of the current flowery language about being together as one will end. Any tough deals will be done behind closed doors in Westminster. The British government will, as per usual, cowtow to the banks and big business and the electorate will passively accept it all as ‘democracy’.

To conclude on a positive note. Mr Salmond and the SNP are not going to pass into oblivion and they will continue to govern Scotland until 2016. Undoubtedly, dear friends, there will be speculation regarding Mr. Slamond’s position and the SNP will need to decide whether to run in 2016 on a second referendum pledge. The independence campaigners came within a whisker of ending the ‘United Kingdom’ - one day, perhaps soon, they will be back.

God bless and may I wish all contributors to this thread a jolly splendid and relaxing weekend. This is my final posting but may I just take this opportunity to apologise to ‘Vouthon’ for any offence my posts may have occasioned.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

In Christos

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

The grim reality is that there is no mandate from the English dominated Westminster to give Scotland anything and Mr. Cameron is fully aware of this. Scotland will probably get swept aside for all intents and purposes, for there is no reason for the status quo to radically change. Warmest good wishes,

I don’t think so. There is talk of constitutional (institutional) reform, and the general elections are only 9 months away. I think whoever wins will implement the agreed upon changes which will be discussed very soon. There is no way that things can stay as they are, not just for Scotland but other parts of the country.

 

[TEPO]

Why does London get to decide what “crumbs” to throw to whom. Why cant the UK be more like the US, with State and Federal governments that work both independently and interdependently? Or is that what its like, and London is like Americas Washington DC…?

 

[CatholicWhovian]

I am of Scottish and Irish descent. Plus, I’m American. So, I don’t think too fondly of the British.

No wonder… it seems you don’t even understand those terms. Sorry I just hate it when people confuse these terms. You may “know” your history but you don’t know the proper terminology. Americans…

Your statement would have made it more sense if Scotland had declared independence. The people decided democratically that they don’t want to and therefore the Scottish remain British citizens.

The term “British” is the citizenship of the United Kingdom and also a marker of identity. The term “Scottish” would mean the ethnicity. However the two terms are not solid identities and can intermingle. There are people in Scotland today who consider themselves more British than Scottish, or Scottish AND British. There’s also so much integration between England and Scotland in the past 300 years that had independence been declared it would take a long time to properly untangle those connections of integration. Case in point: the Bank of England was founded by a Scotsman; the Bank of Scotland was founded by an Englishman. Independence for Scotland would not be that simple. That’s why the White Paper of the SNP is so thick.

The terms “English” and “Welsh” are also considered ethnicities. To use one of your previous posts it would actually be more accurate to say:

"Yes, let’s just forget about what the English did to the Scots and Irish before all that, right?

Being British and being Scottish are very very complicated and fluid identities that you cannot just simply put in solid defined groups. Of course if the Scottish had declared independence all that I’ve said would be thrown away and the term “Scottish” would have been a term of both ethnicity and citizenship, just like what the term “Irish” is today.

Just a tangent before the United States declared independence and started the Revolutionary War the colonists considered themselves as both colonists in America and English - and they were very loyal towards Britain. So much that they wanted representation in Parliament; but Parliament itself wouldn’t allow that and taxed them heavily. The colonies declared independence as a reaction to taxation without representation. The separate American identity developed afterwards.

Also another thing, why would you disregard the Welsh? Some of them wanted to break away from the English as much as half of Scotland would.

 

[CatholicWhovian]

Why does London get to decide what “crumbs” to throw to whom. Why cant the UK be more like the US, with State and Federal governments that work both independently and interdependently? Or is that what its like, and London is like Americas Washington DC…?

That’s an agenda of one of the parties at Westminster, the Liberal Democrats. They want a federal United Kingdom. Before I didn’t want the UK to be federal but now with the referendum over I’ve actually learned to agree with them. If Westminster keeps their promise I say they should have a federal government with each of the three devolved parliaments more decentralized powers - and an English Parliament somewhere in north England (because the North doesn’t get much attention) because an English Parliament within London beside the main central Parliament would be awkward.

 

[Vouthon]

Needless to say but I am relieved about the outcome of the referendum. The Scottish people have voted to remain one of four nations within one country, the United Kingdom.

I never watched the results coming in last night as I had to rise early in the morning for university, however I did see the final result come in.

I had a spring in my step today, yet I am concious of the disappointment and even grief that many Yes voters will be feeling today. We have a lot of work to do in healing the divisions in our country. Focus for the former Yes campaigners should be on gaining more extensive powers for Scotland, as promised by Westminster.

I hope that we can work productively together to forge a strong, united Scotland in a strong United Kingdom.

I think that the Scottish people have had a tremendous exercise in democracy and that the British government has set an example for states worldwide in being democratic and forward-thinking enough to even allow this referendum to take place.

ie

bbc.co.uk/news/world-29272728

With that in mind, many Chinese were astonished that London allowed the referendum to go ahead - never mind that it would allow the UK to split up.

Throughout the campaign, state media ran articles about how “too much democracy” had led to “instability” in the UK…

Meanwhile a nascent movement for the independence of Venice, in times past a powerful European nation-state, is not taken seriously in Rome.

Newspapers in the German-speaking South Tyrol, which passed to Italy after World War Two, said that the Scottish referendum had been an “incredible success” simply because it had been allowed to be held.

Listeners calling in to a leading radio talk show complained that in contrast to what happens in the UK, Italian politicians seem unable to carry out long-desired constitutional changes and electoral reforms.

This is a good day for British and Scottish democracy. We should all be proud of that, irrespective of our political opinion.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Needless to say but I am relieved about the outcome of the referendum. The Scottish people have voted to remain one of four nations within one country, the United Kingdom.

I never watched the results coming in last night as I had to rise early in the morning for university, however I did see the final result come in.

I had a spring in my step today, yet I am concious of the disappointment and even grief that many Yes voters will be feeling today. We have a lot of work to do in healing the divisions in our country. Focus for the former Yes campaigners should be on gaining more extensive powers for Scotland, as promised by Westminster.

I hope that we can work productively together to forge a strong, united Scotland in a strong United Kingdom. I think that the Scottish people have had a tremendous exercise in democracy and that the British government has set an example for states worldwide in being democratic and forward-thinking enough to even allow this referendum to take place.

ie

bbc.co.uk/news/world-29272728

This is a good day for British and Scottish democracy. We should all be proud of that, irrespective of our political opinion.

Congratulations. I did “watch” the results online. I thought it was fascinating. I am happy for Scotland and England, maybe more relieved. And I do hope Scotland can work toward more and more Home Rule. That sounds best, in conjunction with the rest of the UK. The voter turnout was amazing (except Glasgow which was like 75%?). This really was democracy at its best. Scots have always struck me as smart, thoughtful people - but I also thought they were quiet and introverted (?), maybe not so much…

 

[Vouthon]

Congratulations. I did “watch” the results online. I thought it was fascinating. I am happy for Scotland and England, maybe more relieved. And I do hope Scotland can work toward more and more Home Rule. That sounds best, in conjunction with the rest of the UK. The voter turnout was amazing (except Glasgow which was like 75%?). This really was democracy at its best. Scots have always struck me as smart, thoughtful people - but I also thought they were quiet and introverted (?), maybe not so much…

Thank you my friend Excellent post.

Glasgow had the lowest turnout and along with Dundee was the only city which showed a substantial Nationalist victory, although there was still a massive No vote even here. Everywhere else was a triumph for the No campaign. It was incredible. 84% was the turnout overall I believe, with 90% turnout in some regions, predominantly among “No” voters. It is interesting that you say quiet and introverted, for the No voters are being called the “silent majority” by Alistair Darling. Many of us were not on the cameras, not campaigning up and down the country, not waving flags or banners…yet we surged to victory on the day that mattered, quietly casting our vote.

It has been astonishing.

 

[Rob_Arnzen]

Some examples:

Holodomor

Gulags

Great Purge

Soviet Persecution of Eastern Catholics

Soviet Antisemitism

.

 

[freeRadical]

No wonder… it seems you don’t even understand those terms. Sorry I just hate it when people confuse these terms. You may “know” your history but you don’t know the proper terminology. Americans…

I stand by what I said. When I hear the word British, I think English. I don’t think Scottish. I don’t think Irish. And I don’t think Welsh. I think English.

 

[Coatimundi]

I stand by what I said. When I hear the word British, I think English. I don’t think Scottish. I don’t think Irish. And I don’t think Welsh. I think English.

The same may well be true for most Americans. Geographic literacy is not one of our strong suits. However, now that we know better, we can avoid the mistake in the future.

A bit of humor: (which is also educational, as well)

**The Difference between the United Kingdom, Great Britain and England Explained **
youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10

 

[FollowChrist34]

I stand by what I said. When I hear the word British, I think English. I don’t think Scottish. I don’t think Irish. And I don’t think Welsh. I think English.

Yes, I would just take the correction with thanks and a little humility. Trust me, if you made this kind of oversight about France and were up against a Frenchman/woman, it would be a whole different story. Consider yourself leniently dealt with here.

(not stereotyping here - many French are very kind and helpful - they have an unfair bad reputation, but if it happens to you even once, you never forget it)

 

[didymus]

For everyone’s listening pleasure, Beethoven’s Seven Variations on God Save the King which was commissioned by a group of Scots businessmen. Not his greatest work but even geniuses have to pay the rent and it’s pretty good.

youtube.com/watch?v=L6YtCRGeHjA

 

[GEddie]

I stand by what I said. When I hear the word British, I think English. I don’t think Scottish. I don’t think Irish. And I don’t think Welsh. I think English.

One good thing about this whole campaign (which IMNAAHO isn’t final-- the SNP will try again in ten years or so) is that the world has finally learnt not to use “Britain” and “England” synonymously.

ICXC NIKA