Europe must rediscover 'its own identity, its own unity', says Pope Francis

[grotto]

Its a darn shame that these professorial lectures are not appreciated and found to be the guiding light for the common man. Think of the insult that such opinions can be found lacking in wisdom and completely ignored with one click of a button. Only those that have mastered all worthwhile content should be allowed to discuss complex situations problematic to current day.
If not received willingly, the ignorant will be forced to comply.

Thank God we have freedom and the means to protect and defend in the USA.

 

[niceatheist]

You mean that institution built out of the necessity of creating a peaceful Europe? The institution whose basic concept was advocated by no less than Winston Churchill? An institution based on an idea that even the Church in the Middle Ages did it’s darndest to create. That institution that itself looks back to the Pax Romana.

I have no idea why some people are so against a united Europe. Is it because it stands as a major trading bloc? Is it because they’re ignorant of the centuries of warfare and misery between European powers? The creating of a political union that has made France and Germany, who, within some peoples’ lifetimes, were the fiercest of enemies, fast friends is somehow a bad thing?

 

[niceatheist]

Its a darn shame that these professorial lectures are not appreciated and found to be the guiding light for the common man. Think of the insult that such opinions can be found lacking in wisdom and completely ignored with one click of a button. Only those that have mastered all worthwhile content should be allowed to discuss complex situations problematic to current day.
If not received willingly, the ignorant will be forced to comply.

Thank God we have freedom and the means to protect and defend in the USA.

So you are aware, I trust, that the United States itself was a confederation founded by Thirteen Colonies, that after the Declaration of Independence, were sovereign states unto themselves? If it was a good idea for those Thirteen States to unite in a federal state, why is it bad that Europe do the same?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think Americans’ lack of enthusiasm for the EU is the fact that it is more than just a trading organization and seems to require more and more surrender of sovereignty. I think the “punishment of Poland” tore it for a lot of people. It’s one thing for Poland to allow, e.g., German products to freely enter Poland, it’s another for Germany to dictate to Poland the composition of its population.

 

[tomarin]

Yes, let’s not forget that certain countries in Europe like the Swiss prefer to stay out of the EU for fear of losing their distinctive traditions and way of life. I can see the benefits of joining the EU but clearly there is some loss involved as well.

 

[PickyPicky]

Yes, let’s not forget that certain countries in Europe like the Swiss prefer to stay out of the EU for fear of losing their distinctive traditions and way of life. I can see the benefits of joining the EU but clearly there is some loss involved as well

Yes, the Swiss like to stay out of everything, and they have their reasons . But in fact, of course, they have had to incorporate parts of EU law in order to get as much access as they want to the EU market.

And yes, of course there is loss as well as gain: it is a pooling of part of our sovereignty.

 

[tomarin]

I also felt a bit sad when the Euro was introduced for all of those colorful and historical currencies that disappeared, ones that I enjoyed interacting with, like the Mark, the Franc, the Lira …

 

[PickyPicky]

I also felt a bit sad when the Euro was introduced for all of those colorful and historical currencies that disappeared

Oh, the drachma: those vast notes with pictures of seriously moustached heroes of independence.

 

[tomarin]

The Pund or something, wasn’t it called? I remember being impressed that the French had a few poets on their billnotes.

 

[twf]

Not only that, but She has fairly consistently promoted pan-European governance… until relatively recently, at least in concept, under the primacy of a Catholic Emperor. Conservative Americans must find much of Catholic history very uncomfortable.

 

[Vouthon]

I think Americans’ lack of enthusiasm for the EU is the fact that it is more than just a trading organization

Well, yes, that’s kind of the point of a supranational political union…

 

[Ridgerunner]

Well, yes, that’s of the point of a supranational political union…

And seemingly the reason a majority of Brits wanted out.

 

[Ridgerunner]

A majority all the same.

 

[Vouthon]

And seemingly the reason a majority of Brits wanted out.

You know it was nearly a 50/50 split and that my nation (Scotland) and adopted second City (London) were both overwhelmingly pro-EU.

A narrow majority UK-wide, won on the back of electoral fraud and disinformation, masks the fact that the UK is a multi-national state with two of its four constituent nations voting clearly against leaving.

And ever since 2017, every single poll has had Remain sentiment ahead, now by at least 12% points.

And no wonder, because Brexit as it was promised is undeliverable by any British government. It still hasn’t been achieved three years later and the partisan divide within the country has only deepened.

It has left us a dysfunctional state in permanent crisis mode.

Great, eh? What a great decision that was.

 

[Ridgerunner]

A majority is a majority. I imagine the polls are like they were for the 2016 election here. They were all showing a Clinton victory until Trump won. I have come to distrust them. And there are as many theories about that as there are people to give them, seemingly.

But no matter what, your people voted out. Some didn’t and don’t like it.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I didn’t say that, of course. You don’t agree with Brexit. Everybody here knows that. But the majority of Brits voted for it, and the rules governing it (apparently) say “Brexit it is, then”.

Let’s just not pretend being in the EU is popular with everybody in Britain because obviously it wasn’t and quit possibly still isn’t.

The way America’s electoral college works has nothing whatever to do with that.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Straw man? It’s just the reality of the situation, not just a “claim”. The majority of Brits voted to leave the EU. That’s just a fact.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Nor did I say anyone did. That itself is a straw man. Given all the welter of quibbling with the majority and lame reasons given for it, it seemed a reasonable time to simply remind the EU lovers that a majority didn’t agree with that position, and quite likely for the political reasons.

 

[Vouthon]

A lot has happened since that vote three years ago.

It is tiresome, even for me, to recount all the complicated intricacies, so I’ll spare you the boredom.

But the salient fact of the matter is that Brexit has broke the British political system and resulted in an interminable constitutional crisis that the government, and parliament itself, has proved incapable of overcoming.

What’s the point in referring back to the vote as this almost “holy grail” if what was decided can’t actually be achieved as promised?

The proof is in the pudding and there is no “there” there with the Brexit Leavers thought they’d get.

I’m more interested in how Britain moves on and gets out of this crisis. My preference, and that of many other Brits, is for a second referendum with a two-step process (Leave/Remain first again, followed by actual Brexit options that are deliverable, even if less than ideal, next if Leave wins again that we’d have to vote on) and then a general election to give a new government the chance to try and deliver.

And please, let’s not compare Brexit with Trump or Hilary Clinton. Brexit was a far more serious and substantial decision for Britain, with ramifications for generations if not centuries to come, than the US electing a president for a four year-term.

The only event comparable in scale to Brexit (although it hasn’t, thankfully, got to the point of bullets) in your national history, would be the American Civil War - not the 2016 election.

 

[Ridgerunner]

But the salient fact of the matter is that Brexit has broke the British political system and resulted in an interminable constitutional crisis that the government, and parliament itself, has proved incapable of overcoming.

Notwithstanding your admonition below, it may be remarked that the Democrats’ disappointment in the U.S. election has led to near governmental paralysis and has come close to creating a constitutional crisis. Sometimes when anger is hot enough, it throws everything into a spin.

No offense but I think the American Civil War is not a good comparison. Half a million people died in that contest, and the South’s economy was ruined for nearly a century. Despite the feelings of the moment, Brexit has not and will not even come close to that kind of result.