Europe must rediscover 'its own identity, its own unity', says Pope Francis

[Vouthon]

Despite the feelings of the moment, Brexit has not and will not even come close to that kind of result.

I did caveat my response with “not with bullets thankfully”.

Constitutionally and culturally speaking Brexit is a seismic as a civil war - indeed wars have been fought over for less weighty matters

That it hasn’t come to blows says far more about the British penchant for restraint and civility than it does the seriousness of the question faced, and the extent to which people on both sides are emotionally engaged and riled by the issue.

In some other countries, an event like Brexit would have led to mass civil unrest. To anyone living here, that is very apparent.

 

[niceatheist]

And then turned around and voted a Remainer Parliament.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Is there mass civil unrest in Norway? In Switzerland? Neither are EU members. It seems more and more likely to me all the time that there are people whose livelihoods are perceived (correctly or incorrectly) as being EU-dependent, and there are people who don’t see it that way. And feelings run high, it appears.

 

[Vouthon]

An example of the constitutional peril we are in, candidates for the Tory leadership are seriously claiming that they might prorogue parliament if elected - that is, temporarily disband parliamentary democracy and rule by executive privilege alone to get a no-deal Brexit through (that would decimate the UK economy and lead to queues stretching for miles at dover) over parliamentary opposition:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1136324330516881409

https://twitter.com/x/status/1136324890154491904

This is no laughing matter.

 

[niceatheist]

Shades of Charles I. He too thought he could rule without Parliament

 

[Ridgerunner]

Am I supposed to believe Breitbart, or discount it? I never read Breitbart except when it’s quoted here on CAF. That doesn’t mean it’s believable or unbelievable. It just means it is not somehow incumbent on me to believe or doubt Breitbart.

 

[Vouthon]

Neither are EU members

Both are members of the EEA (Single Market), the Schengen zone (which the UK is not even part of as a full member) and implement EU law in applicable areas - up to 21-25% of overall laws come from Brussels.

They pay into the common EU budget but have no say over it’s lawmaking processes (because they have decided against full membership but wish to retain no borders and totally frictionless trade with no tariff or regulatory barriers), despite having to implement much of that law.

As an example, Switzerland recently changed it’s gun legislation by an overwhelming majority in a referendum because refraining from doing so would have led it to be ejected for breaching EU law:

Switzerland just voted overwhelmingly in favor of tighter gun control laws

In a European country known for its high firearm ownership, change has come swiftly.

qz.com

On Sunday (May 19), Swiss voters overwhelmingly agreed to enact stricter gun control laws to comply with changes in European Union regulations.

Switzerland is not an EU member, but it is part of the open-border Schengen area. If it had not changed its gun laws to align with the new EU regulations, the country could have jeopardized its Schengen status. This would have imposed passport restrictions on Swiss citizens traveling within the EU and raised the costs of trading Swiss goods and services within the zone.

A majority of voters in all but one of Switzerland’s 26 cantons backed the reform.

A demand from the neighbouring European Union that the Swiss toughen their gun laws prompted a rare national debate over firearm ownership in the wealthy Alpine nation, which has a deeply-rooted gun culture.

Switzerland says 'oui' to EU gun regulations: Commentary from a Swiss gun rights advocate

The following article was written by guest writer Quentin Mathey, who is a friend and a Swiss militia member. Switzerland's militia is part of their

sofrep.com

As part of the Schengen area, Switzerland must accept EU rules.

If excluded from the Schengen area, border security has to be enforced and loss of tourism.

– If excluded from the Schengen area, we lose access to the SIS II database.

– If excluded from Schengen area, Switzerland won’t be able to expel criminals and migrants to the Schengen borders.

– If Switzerland rejects the law, Switzerland has three months to renegotiate with the EU before a possible rejection from the Schengen area.

The only countries not in the EEA, full EU membership or on a path towards integration are the likes of Belarus and Russia, that’s all I can really think of tbh.

The UK is thus in entirely uncharted territory if we exit outside EEA membership.

The Swiss and Norway models are unconscionable to Hard Brexiteers because they do not regard it as “sovereignty” but “vassalage”.

The problem is that the Leave campaigners promised voters that they’d be able to stay in the Single Market with every economic advantage of membership but without having to abide by EU common standards, the jurisdiction of it’s court over those standards etc.

It’s a fiction - to have one’s cake and eat it.

Even Turkey is in a customs union with the EU.

So, terrible examples on your part I’m afraid.

 

[Vouthon]

Shades of Charles I. He too thought he could rule without Parliament

Exactly.

This is the gravest crisis in British history since the English Civil War in the 17th century, when such arguments as are being put forward now were last being made.

Scary doesn’t even capture it.

 

[Vouthon]

In one part of the UK, republican violence in Northern Ireland has already erupted from some minority groups (condemned by Sinn Fein) and a young journalist was recently killed by one of these violent episodes.

If Britain went for no-deal, such violence could emerge on the mainland of the UK as well, not just NI.

During the referendum in 2016, it must be remembered that a young female Remain MP was brutally assasinated by a far-right extremist belonging to Britain First.

In an environment where allegations of “treason”, “betrayal of the will of the people” and certain groups being castigated as "enemies of the people" are bandied around much too loosely, the stakes are very high.

People have already died because of Brexit.

 

[tomarin]

The problem is that the Leave campaigners promised voters that they’d be able to stay in the Single Market eith every economic advantage of membership but without having to abide by EU common standards, the jurisdiction of it’s court over those standards etc.

It’s mind-bogglingly dumb that anyone believed them.

 

[niceatheist]

Well, dear Boris is going to have to explain his claims in court, at the very least. And there’s still the question of good ol’ Nigel’s dark money, and whose money it was.

 

[Lou2U]

The violence of Brexit started in the run up to the referendum with the murder of Jo Cox. I fear it will only get worse from here.

With regards to the article, I think the Pope is spot on with what he says.

 

[Lou2U]

It’s mind-bogglingly dumb that anyone believed them.

Conservative leadership potentials are still pretending the UK can have its cake and eat it. I believe only one, Rory Stewart, has come out and said people need to be realistic but I doubt anyone will listen to him. They want to believe Britain is still a world power who can stand up to anyone. In my opinion, Britain has become the emperor with no clothes on. When it will realise this is anyone’s guess.

 

[Vouthon]

It’s mind-bogglingly dumb that anyone believed them.

Indeed, and Brexit is fundamentally unsolvable until this is recognised - in toto - by the Brexit side.

Britain must choose between the economic dislocation necessary to achieve complete regulatory autonomy from the Union that we have been tightly integrated inside since 1972 (a deeper degree of economic union than that between different regions of a sovereign state like Canada) which can be gradual and phased (as May intended through her deal) or unilateral and immediately devastating in scope, or we go Norway/Swiss-style and agree to comply with EU standards and laws applicable to the Single Market to retain all of it’s benefits (as opposed to just negotiated free trade in certain sectors, which we can have under May’s plans but it’d still dent our economy).

You can’t be a little bit pregnant.

The Swiss and Norway models emerged in the first place because those nations desired to participate in a single European economy and it’s standardised system of laws, along with a borderless customs union, and enjoy the right to trade, travel, work and exchange across Europe like citizens of a full member state but not to be formally part of the political architecture.

The result was a state akin to voluntary vassalage that these countries, as relatively small neutral powers, were largely OK with accepting as a compromise.

Obviously, the same logic does not work in the case of the UK, which is a major European power.

The idea of us paying into the EU budget and passing laws from Brussels that we have no say over is unacceptable to me, let alone Brexiteers.

I want Britain to lead in Europe, not be led by Europe outside her. To “pay” and “obey” but have “no say” is unsustainable for Britain. Within the EU, we are part of the Big Three member states (along with Germany and France) that have the most MEPs by proportion in the European Parliament and influence overall.

So, most Brits on both sides of the national debate don’t see the Swiss/Norwegian model as a viable choice contra @Ridgerunner especially Brexiteers but even Remainers like me.

 

[Vouthon]

And then turned around and voted a Remainer Parliament.

An oft-neglected fact

 

[grotto]

Yes indeed you are correct and that was just for openers. The EU is not a country it can easily be a power vacuum - one that sucks up the sovereign identity and individual culture/language.

 

[niceatheist]

And whose identity is being sucked up? It didn’t happen in other federations like Canada and the US.

 

[grotto]

Really not at all as important. The high horse you are on has been scratched.

 

[niceatheist]

Not even in the crankier corners of the EU-27 is there any significant desire for any country to leave. The UK is on its own, and it is quite likely that if there’s a Hard Brexit Scotland will secede, and either NI explodes in violence or rejoins the Irish Republic, leaving a rump of England and Wales, a diminished situation that hasn’t existed since James I came to the throne.

Brexit isn’t the making of a stronger Britain, it’s the recipe for its dismantling.

 

[niceatheist]

niceatheist:

And then turned around and voted a Remainer Parliament.

An oft-neglected fact

And a critical one. It’s the explanation for the paralysis. If the desire for Brexit was that strong, Nigel Farage should be PM now. The referendum didn’t solve a problem, it created a catastrophe, and rather than healing the rift in the Conservative Party, it’s split the party almost completely. Even Gove seems to know it, and he’s suggested a further delay until 2020, showing he had no faith in his own Leave position.