Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

[rinnie]

Actually, that’s Romans chapter 5 and 6 that I can’t get anyone to read or comment on, so I don’t know if it’s being ignored or not believed. It says so much more than Christ died on the Cross for our behalf.

Then the choice would have been taken away, and we would all be, at best, robots, preprogrammed to do the will of God.

I couldn’t tell you because you are talking about original sin. But I can tell you that God provided the answer to original sin in His Son before the earth was created. How did Adam and Eve become reconciled again with God? By Grace, or by the first animal burnt offering?

You can turn on some so-called Christian broadcasting and see live examples of some who use the Name of the Lord for their profit that have no Truth in them.

Matt. 7:22-23 is the rest of 7:21, already noted.
Philippians 1:12 doesn’t say work** for **your salvation, and that seems to be the word you are replacing “out” with. We know that the Bible does not contradict itself, and there is no scripture anywhere that says we must work for our salvation, so attributing the words “work out” as “work for” is completely foreign to all that is said before and after that line of scripture. However, if you didn’t know all that is said about our salvation before and after this line, it might be easy to think it says there is something we have to do to earn our salvation. Reading in context:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

"Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

“Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.”
~ Philippians 2:12-16

In it’s context, we have a pep talk to the Philippians telling them that the desire they have in them now was put there by God, and to walk it out, work it, do it!

If you could show me in God’s Word where He said that, this would be an entirely different conversation.

I just did, then you disagree with me, you said we do not have to work out our salvation, then you said I am replacing out with for. (whats the difference) then you said we do not have to work out our salvation, then you turned around and said we have to walk it out, work it, do it. What are you talking about. By the way you are not only contradicting youself in this post alone, but also on the Death of Jesus. You said we do not have to do anything we are saved. IF so why do we have to walk it, work it do it, isn’t that doing something. If God did not want us to do something why then did he as you said put that desire in us. Remember what you said, he did it for us, why then does it want us to do something. What good is that desire to do right do for us? And please do not tell me that if you have the desire to do Good, (which I agree with by the way, because we do want to please God) anyway please don’t tell me just because he did give us that grace we always use it,and never ignore it and turn to sin. Because then that would make us perfect. Yes we are to strive to be perfect but its impossible. So now where does sin fit in here. or are you saying that if we have that desire we cannot sin? Is that what you are saying? How about if we have the desire to please God, but we also want to do thing’s that don’t please God. What happens then, or are you saying thats impossible or what. Or are you saying don’t worry as long as the desires there, your cool and you are saved. But sin all you want. Jesus already saved you? See why your teachings make no sense to me. I love Jesus with all my heart and soul. and Im a sinner. WHY? I am baptised, I have the desire. I have the desire more than anything in my life, but I still fail and fall into sin at times. Why then? Are you saying I really don’t love Jesus or I would never fall or what? Are you saying because I fall to sin at times I was never one of Gods?

 

[rinnie]

Okay first of all you said Yes Jesus Did give the Apostles the authority to forgive sin, Okay we are making progress. Now where did Jesus say this authority dies when they die, you cannot pass it on. Lets start there.

Now are you denying Baptism? Are you saying we do not have to be baptised? Are you denying the Eucharist.

How do we get purified of our sins without baptism? How in the world do we get santifying grace without it. Is it not the Holy Trinity that enters us at Baptism. You are really losing me here.

Why did Jesus say in Mt 28:19-20 Go out and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father Son Holy Spirit teaching them to observe all I have commanded you.

By the way why did God command the Apostles to do this things, if the cross did these things for us?

Why did Jesus say unless you eat the flesh of the SOn of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you.

Also why did Jesus leave us the ten commandments. And that is what they are commands. I thought that these are what we are to follow to follow Christ and have eternal life. Why did Jesus stick with the commandments even after his death, why did he say we still must be Baptised, communion. And he said this after the cross too, again may I add after he came back! Why did he still give us commands if we do not have to follow them? If by his cross we are saved and will all automatically get into heaven why didn’t he say that.

Sorry I was taught that by his cross and resurrection he made it possible for us to get into heaven. He did everything possible to open the door, but I was taught that we had to follow him, and do his work. Follow his rules. I was taught that we had free will, if we want Jesus he is there if we don’t that’s our choice. I was taught you either choose him or you can turn to the evil one.

How can Jesus know us by our works if we don’t do them. How can we live our lives to please God, and how can that determine our fate if we don’t do them. And why is there judgement day? You never did answer that either. If we are saved by his death on the cross why are we judged? Isn’t judgement day the day that we meet Jesus and he tells us that we are either with him or against him. Getting in or we are out. OR did my CHurch really lie to me? Is there no judgement day, because if we are already saved by the cross why would there be. Or could it be that my Church was correct and yes we are saved by the Cross but we must do the work, do Gods work, love one another. not steal, kill, etc. Because forgive me but by grace or not I think its hard, I find it easier to do the wrong thing then the right. Its easier to take what is not mine then work for it, its easier to screw around on my husband then to be faithful. Its easier to lie then to tell the truth and face the consequences. Its WORK! And to me and what my CHurch told me if I do not do this work my soul in in grave danger. Now because this is hard for me, and easier to do the wrong thing, and more fun too sometimes, may I add, and the devil can sure tempt me (trust me he can really find your weak spot) because he CAN tempt me does that mean I am not one of Gods? Because sometimes when I would like to sin but turn away from it, am I not one of Gods because I would like to sin. Is there something wrong with me because I don’t always want to do good, and would love to join the fun lets say. Do things that I know are wrong? Because let me tell you this, If I thought for one second that I did not have to pay for my sins, and was guaranteed salvation, and could do a little sin here and there, and not repent, and pay for that sin. I’d do it. Does that now make me human, or does it make me not one of Gods because the DESIRE to do wrong pops into my head every now and then too? Or could my church be right, and I will be tempted, and tested, by the way what good would temptation do if it wasn’t fun? You can say one thing about sin, it puts your soul in a bad place. but it can be fun getting there, why lie, and if it wasn’t fun everyone would be perfect. But is it not WORK to turn away from sin. IT is for me! Hard Work, every day, every minute of my life. Temptation is everywhere!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Rinnie:

I would encourage you to find a Greek Interlinear, the one I use is found on the website scripture4all.org, but just do a search for on line Greek Interlinear and I’m sure you will find several that are search friendly.

Now look at Philippians 2:28 in terms of which preposition is used. The KJV uses the preposition out. “Wherefore my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

A literal translation of the Greek for Phillipians 2:12 reads:

As-besides beloved of-me according-as always ye-obey no as in the beside-being of-me only but now much rather in the from-being of-me with fearing and trembling the of-selves saving be-ye-down-acting.

as-besides is generally interpreted so that
beside-being is generally interpreted presence
from-being is generally interpreted absence
of-selves is generally interpreted your(self)-own
saving is generally interpreted salvation
be-ye-down-acting is generally interpreted be ye effecting

Suddenly, prepositions don’t seem so important anymore do they? The real question is what exactly does “saving be-ye-down-acting” mean? To me it sounds like saving is something that I am actively involved with.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Hi Always lets start here. Why do you keep saying that because we believe that if we turn our back on Christ and choose to disobey his commandments, that means Jesus didn’t do enough.

Good Morning, Rinnie!
That’s not what I’ve been saying at all.

These are your comments that I am referring to where it appears that you are trying to finish for yourself the perfect finished Work of the Cross:

*“That is why Grace is not enough.”

“But we do have a shot of getting into heaven. A real good shot. But that only shot is the Church.”

“2 good reasons for confession, to admit that sin, and show that you acknowledge it. Once you say it and ask for forgiveness its like you feel clean and new again.”

“Another reason you not only get that sin wiped clean, but here is the BIG thing. You get something else in return too. GRACE.”

“And the more you confess, the less sins you have the closer to God you become.
I said and I will repeat we can LOSE grace.”*

None of this is Biblical. Jesus died for your sins once and for ALL.

Let me be clear - There is nothing WRONG in going to God and confessing your sins. You certainly don’t need a Priest to do that because He said He is our High Priest. You can talk to Him and confess your sins right now and He will hear you. You can repent of those sins right now where you are in an intimate conversation with your Creator.

But if you don’t, nothing is going to be taken from you, such as Grace. Confession, repentance, it’s what we do one-on-one with God so that we can grow in Him while we are in these bodies. God already counts us as righteous and as one of His kids through the Blood of Christ, and He’s not in Heaven ready to snatch that back at any time if we don’t preform.

Got an 11:00 appointment with my mom to go somewhere. I’ll be back later.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Hi always gr8ful.

I have one question about this and I always hesistate to ask… just because. If this has already been answered please point me to the answer and I’ll go there.

In reference to your statement above about OSAS. What about the letters to the seven churchs in Revelation and the statement at the end of Revelation.

Hi Whizkid!
I do recall Jesus saying “I will spit you out”. I’ll look at it when I get back home. Thanks!

 

[always_gr8ful]

Hi Always lets start here.

Hi Rinnie!

I see you have many questions, and you have many misunderstandings about what I have posted. I only have one question, the question I have asked from the beginning. I think this makes four times, and I’m not understanding why you won’t answer.

Do you believe God’s Word - the Bible? Do you believe ALL of it is God’s Word?

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I don’t have anything to add to this conversation, as I don’t know anything about this trend in affiliation. I did though feel compelled to ask about this:

CNN is not a trusted news source, but the Christian Science Monitor is?

Christian Science are Christian, CNN are not.

 

[a_burger]

Hi Rinnie!

I see you have many questions, and you have many misunderstandings about what I have posted. I only have one question, the question I have asked from the beginning. I think this makes four times, and I’m not understanding why you won’t answer.

Do you believe God’s Word - the Bible? Do you believe ALL of it is God’s Word?

 

[a_burger]

St. Paul said scripture is God breathed. How can anyone even think God would allow his book to have errors? Let me ask the Chriistian if he thinks the Eucharist is symbolic or is it the actual body of Christ. If you really know the Bible you will know the correct answer. You don’t seem to know the Bible very well when you believe in once saved always saved. Come and experience !st century Christiantiy by attending a Catholic mass. I will say this, however, that it is imperative that Catholics, evangelicals and fundamendalists find common gound. I hope this dialogue will have positive results.

 

[always_gr8ful]

St. Paul said scripture is God breathed. How can anyone even think God would allow his book to have errors?

I don’t know, a burger. But the way the scripture is being ignored here, as if it wasn’t the Truth, I had to ask (again).

Let me ask the Christian if he thinks the Eucharist is symbolic or is it the actual body of Christ. If you really know the Bible you will know the correct answer. You don’t seem to know the Bible very well when you believe in once saved always saved. Come and experience !st century Christiantiy by attending a Catholic mass. I will say this, however, that it is imperative that Catholics, evangelicals and fundamendalists find common gound. I hope this dialogue will have positive results.

(I’m a chick, btw ) I don’t think the Eucharist being the actual body of Christ is what is at issue. I think it’s the unbiblical powers attributed to the Eucharist that is the issue. But that’s changing the subject - unless one of those powers is the Eucharist forgives past and future sins.

I agree about finding common ground, and I HOPE that ground will include the Cornerstone of our faith, that Christ died for our sins, all of them, and that those who believe will be saved.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Hi always gr8ful.

I have one question about this and I always hesistate to ask… just because. If this has already been answered please point me to the answer and I’ll go there.

In reference to your statement above about OSAS. What about the letters to the seven churchs in Revelation and the statement at the end of Revelation.

There seems to be a pattern where the Churches did God’s will, got lax and are being warned to return to God’s will or suffer the consequences. At the end of Revelation there is pretty direct threat not to add to the Word of God or be removed from the Tree of Life.

Revelation 2:4-5
Revelation 2:14-15
Revelation 2:20-24
Revelation 3:2-4
Revelation 3:15-19
Revelation 3:22
Revelation 22:18-19

Hi wizkid!
I studied the scripture (all of them) very carefully, and there is no mention of being cast into the pit, lake of fire, gnashing teeth, anything that would confirm they had lost their salvation.

Notice too, (a cool discovery for me) that the church of Laodicia - the church Jesus said He would “spit them out”, is the only church He doesn’t say “Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard”. Laodicia is so luke warm and smug in their selves that they are not even saved! Hence, the call to Salvation Jesus gives at the end - “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock…”

I just love God’s Word, and it’s so neat when He shows me things I’ve never noticed before.

I figured it out tonight. What I’ve been doing is looking for scripture that says we can lose our salvation. After wondering all day if Revelations said we could, and then seeing scripture doesn’t say that, I realized I was trying to prove a negative, which can’t be done.

So I looked for scripture that says we CAN’T lose our salvation, and found a doosy.

Jesus speaking:
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
~John 5:24

If you don’t read this until tomorrow, what an awesome, AWESOME way to start Passover - with the blessed assurance that if you believe, plus nothing, you will not be condemned -ever!

Jesus said it. I believe it. Do you? Do you doubt the Word of your Creator? Can you see what a glorious Gift He has given us who believe? Do you understand what an insult it is to Him for you to think that there is something YOU can do, when His Work of the Cross was already finished? How will you ever get to that place of TOTAL gratitude and humility as long as you continue to work for your salvation? (be it any of the number of things mentioned on this thread) And how do you ever expect to have a personal relationship with Him when sin and the Church is your focus?

 

[whizkid43]

Hi wizkid!
Jesus said it. I believe it. Do you? Do you doubt the Word of your Creator? Can you see what a glorious Gift He has given us who believe? Do you understand what an insult it is to Him for you to think that there is something YOU can do, when His Work of the Cross was already finished? How will you ever get to that place of TOTAL gratitude and humility as long as you continue to work for your salvation? (be it any of the number of things mentioned on this thread) And how do you ever expect to have a personal relationship with Him when sin and the Church is your focus?

Ok my turn to study scripture. Three thoughts comes to mind.

One. I don’t doubt the word of my creator. But there absolutely is something I can do. I can choose to reject God’s FREE gift of grace. God has given us free will to choose, or not, to accept his free gift of grace. Isn’t that how Lucifer and the fallen angels ended up getting tossed from heaven? Revelation 12:7-9

Two. Who says I work for salvation? Pelagianism was declared a heresy in the 5th(?) century. The only works in Catholocism are the works that come from faith described in James 2:14-16. I totally agree with you that it is wrong, even heretical, for anybody to thing that salvation can be attained by works. But that wasn’t the question, the question was about losing one’s salvation.

Catholics have a personal relationship with Christ. But when you say a personal relationship with Christ do you really mean “have I accepted Christ as my personal Lord and Savior?” And the answer to that question is yes. Catholics must do that every day because the process of salvation (what many non-Catholic Christians call sanctification) is ongoing and not a one time event. It’s not about works, it’s about drawing closer to God which is a process, not a decision.

 

[a_burger]

I don’t know, a burger. But the way the scripture is being ignored here, as if it wasn’t the Truth, I had to ask (again).

Let me ask the Christian if he thinks the Eucharist is symbolic or is it the actual body of Christ. If you really know the Bible you will know the correct answer. You don’t seem to know the Bible very well when you believe in once saved always saved. Come and experience !st century Christiantiy by attending a Catholic mass. I will say this, however, that it is imperative that Catholics, evangelicals and fundamendalists find common gound. I hope this dialogue will have positive results.

(I’m a chick, btw ) I don’t think the Eucharist being the actual body of Christ is what is at issue. I think it’s the unbiblical powers attributed to the Eucharist that is the issue. But that’s changing the subject - unless one of those powers is the Eucharist forgives past and future sins.

I agree about finding common ground, and I HOPE that ground will include the Cornerstone of our faith, that Christ died for our sins, all of them, and that those who believe will be saved.

 

[a_burger]

Gird your loins. What you don’;t know it that I was was an Evangelical for 20 years and I know the Bible very well. You will find this out. It ws the Bible that brought me back to the Catholic church. There is an ‘if and only if’ in the Bible saying saying for those who leave the faith will burn. I will completely answer once saved only saved after Easter. Also I will tell you this. There is a movement into the Catholic church by us exFundaentalists. Everything I write is backed up by Scripture.

 

[whizkid43]

Gird your loins. What you don’;t know it that I was was an Evangelical for 20 years and I know the Bible very well. You will find this out. It ws the Bible that brought me back to the Catholic church. There is an ‘if and only if’ in the Bible saying saying for those who leave the faith will burn. I will completely answer once saved only saved after Easter. Also I will tell you this. There is a movement into the Catholic church by us exFundaentalists. Everything I write is backed up by Scripture.

Wow, I’m with you, I left the Catholic Church for 5-6 years and attended an Evangelical Church. It was scripture that brought me back too!

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie!

I see you have many questions, and you have many misunderstandings about what I have posted. I only have one question, the question I have asked from the beginning. I think this makes four times, and I’m not understanding why you won’t answer.

Do you believe God’s Word - the Bible? Do you believe ALL of it is God’s Word?

Absolutely. The Problem here is not Gods Word, or the message in the bible. I have never denied one piece of scripture. Its your interpretation that I have a real problem with. ITs your words not Gods.

See you claim that you agree that the Apostles have the Gift of the Holy Spirit, you say yes they could forgive sin. Then you say but hey that was never passed on.

In first Timothy it says 6:20-21 O Timothy GUARD what has been entrusted to you. AVOID profane babbling and the absurdities of so-called knowledge, By professing it some people have deviated from the faith.

See now here is where you and I have a big problem. Let me tell you why. Now I go by the teaching’s of the church. Now if I have misled you and I told you anything that goes against the teaching’s of the RCC and someone corrects me. I will go to my Priest and ask him. If he says yes, you are misunderstanding that. I STAND to be corrected. I wll and have in the past came back and said My Mistake. I don’t care to be wrong, I care to spread the truth, not my truth, Gods Truth.

Now if you go to ANY RCC the teaching is the same, it must be there is only one truth. You see it on here everyday that we stick together, gang up on people. That is a lie, we all have the same truth. We have to because there is only one God.

Now if I got to one protestant church I learn one truth, another protestant church another, then alot of my protestant friends say the truth in the protestant chuch is what you want it to be. Now not all protestant Churchs. but some I said. Before I get attacked here and de-rail this thread.

Back to Timothy what did Timothy guard , and why did he have to guard it. And why did he have it entrusted to him. Well the Church is still guarding the truth and always will.

Now back to the point, only one person can be right here. You or the Church. So if I am wrong and I was not correct in what I told you, and I am sure Catholic’s would correct me, and rightly so. But we all seem to agree. Now why is that?

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie!

I see you have many questions, and you have many misunderstandings about what I have posted. I only have one question, the question I have asked from the beginning. I think this makes four times, and I’m not understanding why you won’t answer.

Do you believe God’s Word - the Bible? Do you believe ALL of it is God’s Word?

Also speaking of Gods word, Could you explain something to me.

John 14:12 AMEN AMEN I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the WORKS that I do and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.

Now here if my question, how could you POSSIBLY believe in God and not do WORKS then?

Here is something else you say works have nothing to do with salvation right? Well tell me this, why did God say whoever believes in me will DO WORKS. Now does not doing works mean doing something.

Now lets say we are going to separate Jesus from his works. We are saying like you, we don’t need works. We are already saved by the cross. Then how could we believe and NOT DO WORKS. Because Jesus said will do works , not could, should. I do not read believe in me is all you have to do. I see works there! Could you explain that scripture to me, and what it means to you.

 

[rinnie]

Now the very next line, If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Now show me one commandment that is not something we must work at. Show me on commandment we can break and not be in mortal sin, and show me where we can get to heaven with mortal sin?

If you can you are right and I am wrong. We are saved from the start, do not have to do anything to keep our salvation and everyones getting in!

Now please don’t say that If we Love Jesus we won’t sin. Because thats not true. No matter how hard we try we fall. Rather we want to sin or not is not for debate, its that we do. And sin is falling from Grace. Because grace is good, and pleasing to God. Sin is not good and not pleasing to God.

Now Jesus knew what was commanded of him. here is proof John 14:31 But the world MUST know that I love the Father, and that I do just as the Father COMMANDED of me.

The proof is in the pudding as they say, Jesus had to do something too didn’t he. He obeyed his Father.

 

[rinnie]

Marsha, This is my understanding, see if we see it the same way. My words here.

Okay we all were born with original sin, because of Adam and Eve. All pardon for our sins do indeed come from Christ work on the Cross. Baptism was what took away original sin. when you are baptised any sin prior is wiped clean. That’s of course the sacrament of Baptism.

Now actual sin is the sin we do after Baptism, its called actual because they are sins WE actually commit ourselves. Now for actual sins we have a different sacrament, Penance confession and reconciliation.

Now if we have this sacrament, but we can not be separated from God with sin why do we have to be reconciled with him by means of Repent. And why did God leave us this Sacrament also.

If Jesus felt that by his Cross we could and would not be separated from him by sin why would he institute the Power of the sacraments to forgive sin. Would that not have been un-necessary. And if we did not indeed need this sacrament and the Priest did not have the Power why is this never protested in early Christian writings. We find the opposite true that confesssing to a Priest was accepted as part of the orginal deposit of faith handed down from the Apostles.

Is that more or less how you see it too?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Marsha, This is my understanding, see if we see it the same way. My words here.

Okay we all were born with original sin, because of Adam and Eve. All pardon for our sins do indeed come from Christ work on the Cross. Baptism was what took away original sin. when you are baptised any sin prior is wiped clean. That’s of course the sacrament of Baptism.

Now actual sin is the sin we do after Baptism, its called actual because they are sins WE actually commit ourselves. Now for actual sins we have a different sacrament, Penance confession and reconciliation.

Now if we have this sacrament, but we can not be separated from God with sin why do we have to be reconciled with him by means of Repent. And why did God leave us this Sacrament also.

If Jesus felt that by his Cross we could and would not be separated from him by sin why would he institute the Power of the sacraments to forgive sin. Would that not have been un-necessary. And if we did not indeed need this sacrament and the Priest did not have the Power why is this never protested in early Christian writings. We find the opposite true that confesssing to a Priest was accepted as part of the orginal deposit of faith handed down from the Apostles.

Is that more or less how you see it too?

Absolutely. This link will take you quotes from the early Fathers regarding confession, confirming your view of confession. catholic.com/library/Confession.asp

OSAS makes sin a non-issue. OSAS logically means that if we sin it’s no big deal because we’re already saved, there are no repercussions to violating God’s law, therefore there is no need for repentence (turning away from sin) or confession (receiving absolution for sin). It is a poisonous and insidious false doctrine.