Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

[whizkid43]

Hi Whizkid!
*“That is why Grace is not enough.”

“But we do have a shot of getting into heaven. A real good shot. But that only shot is the Church.”

“2 good reasons for confession, to admit that sin, and show that you acknowledge it. Once you say it and ask for forgiveness its like you feel clean and new again.”

“Another reason you not only get that sin wiped clean, but here is the BIG thing. You get something else in return too. GRACE.”

“And the more you confess, the less sins you have the closer to God you become.
I said and I will repeat we can LOSE grace.”*

None of this is Biblical. Jesus died for our sins ONCE and for ALL.

I can’t speak for other posters on this thread but to your question.

Sin causes separation from God, confessing sin reconciles us to God. Confessing sin is definately Biblical.

James 5:16-20

Catholics believe the sacraments are a way to maintain and deepen their relationship with God. The sacraments are a gift from God to us as a sign of His grace. When we choose to participate in the sacraments we are choosing to maintain and deepen our relationship with God and freely accept His grace.

I realize you probably don’t think the sacraments are Biblical but I’ll agree to disagree with you there. It’s not about works or earning salvation it’s about a deeper relationship with God.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Now this I need to see. Where does it say where sin abounds grace, grace abounds more? SO are you saying the more we sin the more grace we accquire?

Yep. Do you believe it?

And btw, I’m not saying it. Paul said it. I’ve posted it numerous times, and even asked why it was being ignored. But I’m not tired. I’ll post it in full here:

"18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
(End Romans 5)

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
~Romans 6

 

[always_gr8ful]

The qustion is, do you believe it? Do you believe the Word of God?

 

[always_gr8ful]

I can’t speak for other posters on this thread but to your question.

Sin causes separation from God, confessing sin reconciles us to God. Confessing sin is definately Biblical.

James 5:16-20

I agree that confession is Biblical. I don’t agree it’s an on-going salvation process. We confess because we love God. We repent because we love God. We keep His commandments because we love Him.

Catholics believe the sacraments are a way to maintain and deepen their relationship with God. The sacraments are a gift from God to us as a sign of His grace. When we choose to participate in the sacraments we are choosing to maintain and deepen our relationship with God and freely accept His grace.

I realize you probably don’t think the sacraments are Biblical but I’ll agree to disagree with you there. It’s not about works or earning salvation it’s about a deeper relationship with God.

I’m really glad to hear that whizkid, because that’s not what has been stated here by other Catholics. If the focus of the sacraments is to do something to get something besides a deeper relationship with God, then the they are not based on God’s Word and therefore, a lie meant to hold one in bondage.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

If the focus of the sacraments is to do something to get something besides a deeper relationship with God, then the they are not based on God’s Word and therefore, a lie meant to hold one in bondage.

The Focus of the sacraments is gaining a share of the divine life through obedience to Jesus.

If we don’t obey, we won’t go to heaven. The bible is clear about this.

Our goal should be to get to heaven.

 

[rinnie]

Now this I need to see. Where does it say where sin abounds grace, grace abounds more? SO are you saying the more we sin the more grace we accquire?

You still did not answer my question, I know that what scripture say’s, I guess what I am asking what is YOUR interpretation of this, What are you trying to say it means?

 

[always_gr8ful]

The Message Bible can play loose with scripture so you have to be careful, but I think they do a particually good job here with Paul’s gospel putting it in everyday language:

18-19 "Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life! One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.

20-21 "All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn’t, and doesn’t, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it’s sin versus grace, grace wins hands down. All sin can do is threaten us with death, and that’s the end of it. Grace, because God is putting everything together again through the Messiah, invites us into life—a life that goes on and on and on, world without end.

1-3 "So what do we do? Keep on sinning so God can keep on forgiving? I should hope not! If we’ve left the country where sin is sovereign, how can we still live in our old house there? Or didn’t you realize we packed up and left there for good? That is what happened in baptism. When we went under the water, we left the old country of sin behind; when we came up out of the water, we entered into the new country of grace—a new life in a new land!

3-5 "That’s what baptism into the life of Jesus means. When we are lowered into the water, it is like the burial of Jesus; when we are raised up out of the water, it is like the resurrection of Jesus. Each of us is raised into a light-filled world by our Father so that we can see where we’re going in our new grace-sovereign country.

6-11 "Could it be any clearer? Our old way of life was nailed to the cross with Christ, a decisive end to that sin-miserable life—no longer at sin’s every beck and call! What we believe is this: If we get included in Christ’s sin-conquering death, we also get included in his life-saving resurrection. We know that when Jesus was raised from the dead it was a signal of the end of death-as-the-end. Never again will death have the last word. When Jesus died, he took sin down with him, but alive he brings God down to us. From now on, think of it this way: Sin speaks a dead language that means nothing to you; God speaks your mother tongue, and you hang on every word. You are dead to sin and alive to God. That’s what Jesus did.

12-14 "That means you must not give sin a vote in the way you conduct your lives. Don’t give it the time of day. Don’t even run little errands that are connected with that old way of life. Throw yourselves wholeheartedly and full-time—remember, you’ve been raised from the dead!—into God’s way of doing things. Sin can’t tell you how to live. After all, you’re not living under that old tyranny any longer. You’re living in the freedom of God.

15-18 "So, since we’re out from under the old tyranny, does that mean we can live any old way we want? Since we’re free in the freedom of God, can we do anything that comes to mind? Hardly. You know well enough from your own experience that there are some acts of so-called freedom that destroy freedom. Offer yourselves to sin, for instance, and it’s your last free act. But offer yourselves to the ways of God and the freedom never quits. All your lives you’ve let sin tell you what to do. But thank God you’ve started listening to a new master, one whose commands set you free to live openly in his freedom!

19 “I’m using this freedom language because it’s easy to picture…”
~Romans 5:18-21, Romans 6:1-19

 

[rinnie]

The Message Bible can play loose with scripture so you have to be careful, but I think they do a particually good job here with Paul’s gospel putting it in everyday language:

18-19 "Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life! One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.

20-21 "All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn’t, and doesn’t, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it’s sin versus grace, grace wins hands down. All sin can do is threaten us with death, and that’s the end of it. Grace, because God is putting everything together again through the Messiah, invites us into life—a life that goes on and on and on, world without end.

1-3 "So what do we do? Keep on sinning so God can keep on forgiving? I should hope not! If we’ve left the country where sin is sovereign, how can we still live in our old house there? Or didn’t you realize we packed up and left there for good? That is what happened in baptism. When we went under the water, we left the old country of sin behind; when we came up out of the water, we entered into the new country of grace—a new life in a new land!

3-5 "That’s what baptism into the life of Jesus means. When we are lowered into the water, it is like the burial of Jesus; when we are raised up out of the water, it is like the resurrection of Jesus. Each of us is raised into a light-filled world by our Father so that we can see where we’re going in our new grace-sovereign country.

6-11 "Could it be any clearer? Our old way of life was nailed to the cross with Christ, a decisive end to that sin-miserable life—no longer at sin’s every beck and call! What we believe is this: If we get included in Christ’s sin-conquering death, we also get included in his life-saving resurrection. We know that when Jesus was raised from the dead it was a signal of the end of death-as-the-end. Never again will death have the last word. When Jesus died, he took sin down with him, but alive he brings God down to us. From now on, think of it this way: Sin speaks a dead language that means nothing to you; God speaks your mother tongue, and you hang on every word. You are dead to sin and alive to God. That’s what Jesus did.

12-14 "That means you must not give sin a vote in the way you conduct your lives. Don’t give it the time of day. Don’t even run little errands that are connected with that old way of life. Throw yourselves wholeheartedly and full-time—remember, you’ve been raised from the dead!—into God’s way of doing things. Sin can’t tell you how to live. After all, you’re not living under that old tyranny any longer. You’re living in the freedom of God.

15-18 "So, since we’re out from under the old tyranny, does that mean we can live any old way we want? Since we’re free in the freedom of God, can we do anything that comes to mind? Hardly. You know well enough from your own experience that there are some acts of so-called freedom that destroy freedom. Offer yourselves to sin, for instance, and it’s your last free act. But offer yourselves to the ways of God and the freedom never quits. All your lives you’ve let sin tell you what to do. But thank God you’ve started listening to a new master, one whose commands set you free to live openly in his freedom!

19 “I’m using this freedom language because it’s easy to picture…”
~Romans 5:18-21, Romans 6:1-19

Read what you just wrote 20-21 sin causes death, Right death of our soul. How do we get that sin removed again you just wrote it also same sentence Grace. How do you get back life after death of sin. easy Grace. What is Grace. Grace is a Sacrament. What is a sacrament A sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. What is that outward sign the sacrament of confession.

Now you admit at least you did write it anyway that sin causes death. How can you soul have salvation if it is dead. Easy by grace. how do you get that grace again the sacrament of confession. NO OTHER WAY! You repent and you confess your sins by the sacrament of confession, no other way. If you die in mortal sin you are dead. there is no comming back. If you die in mortal sin, you refused to repent and confess and turn back to God. End resutls Salvation LOST!

 

[rinnie]

Just becasue Paul said that Grace can out trump sin, does not mean the the more you sin. the more grace you acquire. All Paul was saying that by Jesus dying on the cross and setting us free from sin means that there is no sin that we can do that can keep us from God. IF and I MEAN IF we REPENT and ask for Forgiveness. That is why he left us the sacrament of Confession. Just because Jesus redeemed us from original Sin once and for all, does not mean again that we cannot lose salvation from actual sin.

Yes when we are baptised we are cleaned from all prior sin, its gone forever. But again where does it say in the bible that new sin especially moral sin cannot sent our soul to hell. Because it does and can, and to lose salvation is to go to hell.

 

[rinnie]

The message of the bible cannot place loose with scripture. The message in the bible must be tight with scripture. That is why we have the church to teach us the truth. Again Jesus left us the Church, he left us the Apostles to teach us the scripture. He did not leave us the bible and say here go figure it out. He knew we did not have the wisdom to do that.

 

[rinnie]

Gotta take off, it Holy Thursday so gotta get going. Don’t want you to think I am ignoring you. Will be back either later tonight or probally tommorow. God Bless!

 

[always_gr8ful]

You still did not answer my question, I know that what scripture say’s, I guess what I am asking what is YOUR interpretation of this, What are you trying to say it means?

I did answer you. I said “Yep. Do you believe it? And btw, I’m not saying it. Paul said it.”

My interpretation of what Paul said is what Paul clearly says. It needs no interpretation. Only a willingness to believe the Truth.

Let’s take the line you asked me to show you.

“But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.”
~Romans 5:20-21

Have you ever been in such a jam of your making that you thought God might not get you out of it? That maybe He would let you sleep in the bed you had made? You saw all you had done wrong and it was a bunch of stuff that could be traced back to a little lie or fudging you committed so you could get something you wanted (for example). You were not trusting God, and now you just feel lower than dirt and you don’t even deserve God intervening for you in your mess. But He does anyway. Ever been there? I have. And I KNOW the Truth of these words of Paul, that where sin abounds, Grace does much more abound. And I thank God for His unlimited Grace!

Now, do on go on as if He didn’t do something great for me? No way! I learn from it and grow closer to Him because of what HE did. I want to trust Him and I don’t ever want to be in that sad shape again. (this is just my example, your sins may vary as mine do too)

Do you believe that where sin abounds, Grace does much more abound? Do you believe ALL of the Word of God?

 

[always_gr8ful]

God Bless you too, Rinnie.

 

[always_gr8ful]

The message of the bible cannot place loose with scripture. The message in the bible must be tight with scripture.

Whoops! I’m sorry, I took it for granted that you knew what I was saying about the Message Bible. The “Message Bible” is a Bible that uses every day language and doesn’t hold tight to the verse structure. It’s written like you and I having a conversation, so it is very “loose” at times and should always be checked, which I did before I posted from it as noted.

I agree - the message in the Bible is not loose.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Read what you just wrote 20-21 sin causes death, Right death of our soul. How do we get that sin removed again you just wrote it also same sentence Grace. How do you get back life after death of sin. easy Grace. What is Grace. Grace is a Sacrament. What is a sacrament A sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. What is that outward sign the sacrament of confession.

This is how the conversation seems to me:

"Why did Jesus come and die for our sins?"

Rinnie “In order to reconcile us to God.”

"And which sins did he die for? Just some of my sins? Or all of my sins?"

Rinnie: “There are different kinds of sins.”

"If he didn’t die for ALL my sins then he died for nothing."

Rinnie: “What you are not understanding because you have never been taught is…”

So which one do we believe? What the Word of God says, or religious dogma we have been taught? There can only be One Truth. And the bigger question, at what risk do we believe the former?

Now you admit at least you did write it anyway that sin causes death. How can you soul have salvation if it is dead. Easy by grace. how do you get that grace again the sacrament of confession. NO OTHER WAY! You repent and you confess your sins by the sacrament of confession, no other way. If you die in mortal sin you are dead. there is no comming back. If you die in mortal sin, you refused to repent and confess and turn back to God. End resutls Salvation LOST!

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
~John 5:24

Jesus said it, I believe it. Do you?

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
~Romans 6:23

 

[whizkid43]

I’m really glad to hear that whizkid, because that’s not what has been stated here by other Catholics. If the focus of the sacraments is to do something to get something besides a deeper relationship with God, then the they are not based on God’s Word and therefore, a lie meant to hold one in bondage.

gr8ful

It’s not a matter of doing something to get something it’s matter of if God gave us the sacramental system so who are we to question Him? Christ instituted the sacraments

From the CCC

1210 Christ instituted the sacraments of the new law. There are seven: Baptism, Confirmation (or Chrismation), the Eucharist, Penance, the Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders and Matrimony. The seven sacraments touch all the stages and all the important moments of Christian life:1 they give birth and increase, healing and mission to the Christian’s life of faith. There is thus a certain resemblance between the stages of natural life and the stages of the spiritual life.

The sacraments are Biblical.

gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976776892

Please see the following link (sorry it’s a little long).

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Sacraments

God gave us the sacraments, we partake in the sacraments and receive His grace. We can choose not to participate, or choose to deny God, and then we will lose our salvation.

To you this is works, to me this is obedience to God. Just as OSAS to you is accepted God’s grace no matter what and to me OSAS is taking God for granted.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Just becasue Paul said that Grace can out trump sin, does not mean the the more you sin. the more grace you acquire.

I’m wondering where Paul said Grace “out trumps” sin.(?)
I don’t think that God smiles on changing His Word.

**abound **

1. be plentiful: to be present in large numbers or quantities
2. be well supplied: to contain something in large numbers or amounts

 

[always_gr8ful]

gr8ful

It’s not a matter of doing something to get something it’s matter of if God gave us the sacramental system so who are we to question Him? Christ instituted the sacraments

From the CCC

1210 Christ instituted the sacraments of the new law. There are seven: Baptism, Confirmation (or Chrismation), the Eucharist, Penance, the Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders and Matrimony. The seven sacraments touch all the stages and all the important moments of Christian life:1 they give birth and increase, healing and mission to the Christian’s life of faith. There is thus a certain resemblance between the stages of natural life and the stages of the spiritual life.

The sacraments are Biblical.

gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976776892

Please see the following link (sorry it’s a little long).

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Sacraments

God gave us the sacraments, we partake in the sacraments and receive His grace. We can choose not to participate, or choose to deny God, and then we will lose our salvation.

To you this is works, to me this is obedience to God. Just as OSAS to you is accepted God’s grace no matter what and to me OSAS is taking God for granted.

With all due respect, wizkid, I do not want to be taught.

If you could just show me the scripture in the Bible that says to receive His Grace, you must do those sacraments, that would be great.

 

[always_gr8ful]

To you this is works, to me this is obedience to God. Just as OSAS to you is accepted God’s grace no matter what and to me OSAS is taking God for granted.

I wonder if you would think OSAS is taking God for granted if you knew how few are saved?
I don’t know…I’m just puttin’ it out there.

 

[rinnie]

With all due respect, wizkid, I do not want to be taught.

If you could just show me the scripture in the Bible that says to receive His Grace, you must do those sacraments, that would be great.

I will Ag. but lets do this another way for right now. Try this with me ok.

Alright right now, you and I our at a place in our lives that we both believe, we know the difference between right and wrong. You agree with me so far right? Okay now we are both baptised, believe in GOd, go to Church and as far as we know are in pretty good shape. So lets say at this moment we are both saved. Now can we agree with that?

Now lets say we both work together, and are pretty good friends and as far as we can see are pretty good people. Again from what you can see about me and I can see about you our soul should be in pretty good shape. And remember God died for both of us. So now if we would pass right now we have a good chance of getting in.

Now by my belief a good chance. By your belief a guarantee, right, Now see if you agree with me until this point and this story will continue. ( just try this story with me Ok),