Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

[josie_L]

That’s right. You don’t NEED to repent or say sorry or feel bad - you are already forgiven, your salvation is sealed. Does a dead-in-their-sins, unsaved person (let’s call them a heathen), does a heathen feel bad for their sins? (No!) Do they even know what sin is most the time, or do they only know the “biggies” like murder and such?(Just the biggies)

So did God give us the Holy Spirit to point out sin in our lives (among other things) so that we would feel bad? (No!) Or so we would want to repent and not do that anymore because we recognized it was sin and we want to be God pleasers?(Want to please God) Because I can’t think of a time that Jesus or the Apostles and Paul said “feel BAD when you sin”. Jesus and the Apostles did say “repent!”. You seem to think that if you don’t do the “biggies”, you’re living holy. But the Spirit shows us just how far we fall from the mark, and it doesn’t make us feel bad or sorry, it makes us cherish the Gift we have in Jesus all that more.

belief + nothing, my friend. Don’t make it complicated.

From the Garden, we are BAD, we don’t have to feel bad. Without Jesus, we’d be toast! Thank God He sent His Son who was tempted just like we are tempted every day, and understands the adversary that hates us, and the struggle we endure to please God.

But what does it matter if we fall into temptation, we’re saved.

LOL, I don’t have a church, so I guess that answers that. You don’t have to “do religion” to be saved - just believe on Jesus.

I believe in Jesus, so my next question is: are all Catholics saved as they all believe in the resurrected Jesus Christ, our saviour, the son of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity?

 

[always_gr8ful]

Josie:

I would remind you of two passages of Scripture.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Proverbs 26:10-12 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors. As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.

Clearly Always is wise in her own conceit, and like the proverbial dog will choose her OSAS vomit over the clear word of God. Do not cast your pearls before her or she will surely turn and rend you. She prefers to twist God’s word to say what she wants it to say rather than what it actually says.

I would advise you to shake the dust off your feet and leave her to her own devices, and we know whose devices those are.

(Jesus said)
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.” ~Matthew 23:13

 

[always_gr8ful]

belief + nothing, my friend. Don’t make it complicated.

That’s right. Salvation is belief plus nothing.

But what does it matter if we fall into temptation, we’re saved.

Exactly! Christ freed you, but you want to run back to your chains because you don’t believe Him.

I believe in Jesus, so my next question is: are all Catholics saved as they all believe in the resurrected Jesus Christ, our saviour, the son of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity?.

Only God knows what is in a persons heart. Are they trusting in themselves - their works for salvation, or on the One who Saved us? I have a Catholic friend that believes Christ did it ALL, once and for all. Maybe it’s just bad luck that I haven’t met any Catholics like him here, are maybe it’s all part of God’s plan that I encounter the most legalistic of Catholics.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Actually, what you have stated here is far from true. There is no unity among those communities that all interpret scripture apart from the Apostolic Teaching. On the contrary, each one does what is right in his own eyes, as your posts have well demonstrated.

guanophore, I appreciate the effort you have put into your lengthy posts to teach me about your doctrine, but what does any of that have to do with the Jesus of the Bible that died for ALL our sins and justified us, a finished work, through Him?

 

[always_gr8ful]

Works are the will of the Father, gr8ful. Scripture is quite clear on this. You just quoted Eph. 2:10 above! He saved us by grace so that we could walk in His works. This is part of our spiritual worship.

I get to post it again.

"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."
~John 6:28-29

 

[guanophore]

That’s Catholic actually

I’m glad to hear that Catholics can agree on some of the Word of God!

Everything in the NT is Catholic, gr8ful. That is why it is in there. Nothing was included that was not consistent with Sacred Tradition.

What we don’t agree with is your personal understanding of what you are reading. this is because you read it outside of the Apostolic Teaching. You impose a modern mindset that is inconsistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.

I don’t hold that unbiblical view.

It is interesting that other well meaning and very faithful dedicated Christians, reading the same Bible as you, do hold that view. I have met many of them here at CAF. Wonder why that is?

So please be careful when talking about others and stating something as fact.

This is a peice of advice it would do well for you to take to yourself.

If you never repented or were sorry for your sins, I would question if you had the Holy Spirit living on the inside of you, and it you really loved God.

Actually, it is clear from your posts that you have already questioned that we have the HS living inside of us, and that we love God. You have basically accused Catholics of Pelagianism.

 No, you don't HAVE to carry the cross

This is an example of why I said your interpretation of scripture is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught, and therefore, constitutes “a different gospel”.

Matt 10:38-39
he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

Matt 16:24-25
"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Your understanding is that we don’t have to carry the cross. The Apostles taught us differently. If we both read the same scripture and understand it differently, how do we know who is right?

 Here you worked all your life to EARN His free Gift, and there will be those that did nothing but believe on Him for their salvation.

Here is an example of you making assumptions about Catholics.

We didn't make the rules, HE did.

Indeed, and He committed them to His Church.

All means ALL. Study it - look it up in the Greek. The whole enchilada!

Actually, there are a number of times in Scripture where all does not mean all.

You don’t get Salvation without belief. It’s a choice, and I pray you make that choice.

It is a reflection of your prejudice against Catholics that you assume we are not saved, or have not chosen Christ.

Jesus, the Perfect Lamb of God died for you, doing for you what you could never, ever do for yourself. He did it ALL. He said “It is finished.” THIS is the Jesus of the Bible.

His work is finished. Ours is not.

You got that right! The Bible is the very Word of God!

And I believe every Word He says.

You clearly believe what you think it says.

Do you not see that scripture is talking about YOU?

“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” ~Galatians 5:4

No, we do not see it that way, gr8ful. That is because we read the scripture from the mindset of what the Apostles believed and taught. Your spiritual ancestors were separated from Sacred Tradition, so you understand the bible differently.

Catholics understand this passage to refer to the Levitical law.

You think because he says you have fallen from grace, that GOD took it away?! NO! You separated yourself from Christ, pushed Him away with both hands by trying to justify yourself by your works, like keeping the commandments (the law).

gr8ful, you misunderstand what the Catholic Church believes and teaches. The only way that works can justify is when they are completed in grace, through faith.

(Lord let them hear and understand)

Indeed, I hope this prayer benefits you as well!

  5 For we, [not relying on the Law but] through the [Holy] Spirit's [help], by faith anticipate and wait for the blessing and good for which our righteousness and right standing with God [our **conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action, causes us] to hope.

This is one of the verses that demonstrates the Apostolic teaching that we do not achieve our salvation in this lifetime.

but only faith activated and energized and expressed and working through love.

And this is one of the best verses to demonstrate the Catholic teaching that a true Christian is one whose faith is working through love. This is one reason we reject the man made gospel of “faith alone”. Faith is never alone, but is always accompanied by hope and love. Saving faith is faith that is activated and energized and expressed in good deeds.

NO! You separated yourself from Christ, pushed Him away with both hands by trying to justify yourself by your works, like keeping the commandments (the law).

Keeping His commandments is not what justifies us. We are justified by grace, through faith. Keeping His commandments is a reflection of the grace that saves us.

 

[guanophore]

That’s right. You don’t NEED to repent or say sorry or feel bad - you are already forgiven, your salvation is sealed.

This is also contrary to what the Apostles taught:

Acts 2:37-38

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Do you see why what you are pandering here is considered “a different gospel”?

So did God give us the Holy Spirit to point out sin in our lives (among other things) so that we would feel bad? (No!)

While I will agree that recognition and repentance from of sin does not necessarily depend upon one’s feelings, God has fashioned us in such a way that, when our conscience is well formed, we will be able to sense when we have grieved His HS.

LOL, I don’t have a church, so I guess that answers that. You don’t have to “do religion” to be saved - just believe on Jesus.

This is another statement that is contrary to Apostolic Teaching. The Apostles taught that when we become members of Christ, we are made members of His One Body, the Church. Therefore, all who have Him as their Head are members one of another. They also taught that we should not isolate ourselves in the faith.

Heb 10:24-25
let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

This “me and Jesus” mentality is another modern invention.

That’s right. Salvation is belief plus nothing.

This is a very thin representation of what saving faith really means.

Exactly! Christ freed you, but you want to run back to your chains because you don’t believe Him.

Your ability to judge the hearts of others is astonishing!

Only God knows what is in a persons heart. Are they trusting in themselves - their works for salvation, or on the One who Saved us?

It seems that you have now also made yourself God.

 I have a Catholic friend that believes Christ did it ALL, once and for all. Maybe it's just bad luck that I haven't met any Catholics like him here, are maybe it's all part of God's plan that I encounter the most legalistic of Catholics.

It seems to me that you have not reallly had any authentic encounters with any Catholics here. You came in with your prejudice, projected your presuppositions upon us of what you think we believe, then started preaching your newfangled trucated gospel to us, interspersed with rude comments and insults against our faith and the Apostolic Teaching.

I really do wonder what brought you here. I think it would be beneficial if you really could have an authentic encounter with Catholics. You would have to be willing to accept us as we are, and get to know us, though, instead of making so many incorrect assumptions.

 

[always_gr8ful]

So please be careful when talking about others and stating something as fact.
This is a peice of advice it would do well for you to take to yourself.

You are clearly being antagonistic, as I have been careful to never misquote anyone. You, on the other hand, aren’t so careful - are you? So where did you say that “ignore” feature was?

And btw, knock yourself out posting scripture of things we can do when we are in Christ (carrying our cross, denying ourselves, etc.) You seem to keep missing the point, or simply creating a destruction FROM the point -You won’t find in scripture that any of that Saves us or justifies us. The Word of God is clear - Salvation is belief on Jesus Christ as Savior alone - not on works, not by the law.

 

[always_gr8ful]

This is also contrary to what the Apostles taught:

Acts 2:37-38

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Do you see why what you are pandering here is considered “a different gospel”?

I’m really starting to believe that y’all have little cheat-sheets somewhere because everyone throws out the same verses out of context. We have gone over this one 3 times now.

Read above that verse please. Whose Name did Peter tell the crowd to call on to be saved? (verse 21) Whose Name forgives sin? (verse 38)

 

[always_gr8ful]

And btw, knock yourself out posting scripture of things we can do when we are in Christ (carrying our cross, denying ourselves, etc.) You seem to keep missing the point, or simply creating a destruction FROM the point -You won’t find in scripture that any of that Saves us or justifies us. The Word of God is clear - Salvation is belief on Jesus Christ as Savior alone - not on works, not by the law.

Interesting Freudian slip I made there. destruction/distraction

 

[guanophore]

You are clearly being antagonistic,

How is it antagonistic to urge you to charity?

as I have been careful to never misquote anyone. You, on the other hand, aren’t so careful - are you? So where did you say that “ignore” feature was?

I am not aware that you misquoted anything but scripture. My point is about the assumptions and accusations you make toward the Catholic faith.

And btw, knock yourself out posting scripture of things we can do when we are in Christ (carrying our cross, denying ourselves, etc.)

Thanks! It is one of my favorite pastimes.

You seem to keep missing the point, or simply creating a destruction FROM the point -You won’t find in scripture that any of that Saves us or justifies us. The Word of God is clear - Salvation is belief on Jesus Christ as Savior alone - not on works, not by the law.

No. You are the only one here claiming that Catholics believe they are saved by works. None of us beleive that.

I’m really starting to believe that y’all have little cheat-sheets somewhere because everyone throws out the same verses out of context. We have gone over this one 3 times now.

Read above that verse please. Whose Name did Peter tell the crowd to call on to be saved? (verse 21) Whose Name forgives sin? (verse 38)

My point is that you said repentance was not necessary. The Apostles taught that it is.

guanophore, I appreciate the effort you have put into your lengthy posts to teach me about your doctrine, but what does any of that have to do with the Jesus of the Bible that died for ALL our sins and justified us, a finished work, through Him?

Actually, I have not been trying to teach you Catholic doctrine. I don’t believe you are here to learn about the Catholic faith. I have just been pointing out areas where you have deviated from what the Apostles taught. I did this as much for the lurkers reading the thread as I did for you. There are people who come here to read the threads that do want to learn.

The Jesus who founded the Church was not confined to the pages of the Bible. In fact, when He established the Church, and committed them to teach everything, giving them authority for the gospel, no NT existed.

What you have tried to do, because you are separated from the faith they taught, is reconstruct some semblence of it from the pages of theSacred Writings. This is not how Jesus intended the faith to be learned. If He had, He would have written an instruction manual, instead of appointing Apostles, Pastors, and Teachers.

What you have been taught about the Catholic faith is wrong. You have come here and judged us, judged our doctrine (which you clearly do not understand) and found all of it wanting. You have tried to preach to us a distorted gospel, and repeatedly insulted us by spewing scriptures that you perceive are about us, trying to show us that we have missed the mark.

Your activities here are a violation of the forum rules. CAF is not here to provide you with a venue for making converts to your truncated version of the gospel.

If you wish to remain here, you might want to consider asking some questions, so that you can get some Catholic Answers. As it is, you have only asked questions as a way of opening an avenue for your evangelistic efforts.

 

[always_gr8ful]

No. You are the only one here claiming that Catholics believe they are saved by works. None of us beleive that.

That’s right, you don’t call it “works”. You call it finishing what Jesus “started”.

My point is that you said repentance was not necessary. The Apostles taught that it is.

My point is STILL the same and won’t change because His Word will never change. There are no conditions to Salvation. Belief plus nothing.

 

[always_gr8ful]

If you wish to remain here, you might want to consider asking some questions, so that you can get some Catholic Answers. As it is, you have only asked questions

Let’s see - I’ve made 228 posts out of 830. I’d say that’s some good give-and-take, especially when you consider that at least 90% of my posts are the Word of God.
I’m learning, we’re learning. So chill. It’s all good.

 

[rinnie]

How is it antagonistic to urge you to charity?

I am not aware that you misquoted anything but scripture. My point is about the assumptions and accusations you make toward the Catholic faith.

Thanks! It is one of my favorite pastimes.

No. You are the only one here claiming that Catholics believe they are saved by works. None of us beleive that.

My point is that you said repentance was not necessary. The Apostles taught that it is.

Actually, I have not been trying to teach you Catholic doctrine. I don’t believe you are here to learn about the Catholic faith. I have just been pointing out areas where you have deviated from what the Apostles taught. I did this as much for the lurkers reading the thread as I did for you. There are people who come here to read the threads that do want to learn.

The Jesus who founded the Church was not confined to the pages of the Bible. In fact, when He established the Church, and committed them to teach everything, giving them authority for the gospel, no NT existed.

What you have tried to do, because you are separated from the faith they taught, is reconstruct some semblence of it from the pages of theSacred Writings. This is not how Jesus intended the faith to be learned. If He had, He would have written an instruction manual, instead of appointing Apostles, Pastors, and Teachers.

What you have been taught about the Catholic faith is wrong. You have come here and judged us, judged our doctrine (which you clearly do not understand) and found all of it wanting. You have tried to preach to us a distorted gospel, and repeatedly insulted us by spewing scriptures that you perceive are about us, trying to show us that we have missed the mark.

Your activities here are a violation of the forum rules. CAF is not here to provide you with a venue for making converts to your truncated version of the gospel.

If you wish to remain here, you might want to consider asking some questions, so that you can get some Catholic Answers. As it is, you have only asked questions as a way of opening an avenue for your evangelistic efforts.

I am going to second this and close this case! God Bless all of you and I hope whoever has read this post can see how the Church has led us to the truth. Remember guy’s scripture can never contradict scripture. No matter what Always says, she can quote the whole bible, we all can. Its easy take a piece of scripture and quote. But we cannot, or lets say should not take scripture out of context and fight scripture with scripture. Which I am afraid Always has done here, Remember it all has to tie in together. And I believe we have showed that. Have a wonderful day everyone!

 

[CWBetts]

That’s right, you don’t call it “works”. You call it finishing what Jesus “started”.

My point is STILL the same and won’t change because His Word will never change. There are no conditions to Salvation. Belief plus nothing.

Salvation is NOT belief plus nothing. THis cannot be found anywhere in the scriptures. James Chapter two does an excellent job of expalining this. FInd me ONE verse with the exact words “Faith alone” Just one. If salvation by faith alone is so important, the phrase must be in the Scriptures somewhere.

 

[BRIT72]

Salvation is NOT belief plus nothing. THis cannot be found anywhere in the scriptures. James Chapter two does an excellent job of expalining this. FInd me ONE verse with the exact words “Faith alone” Just one. If salvation by faith alone is so important, the phrase must be in the Scriptures somewhere.

But my dear, you don’t understand James.

 

[CWBetts]

But my dear, you don’t understand James.

I have the infallible teachings of the church going back 2000 years. You have your own lifetime. Or do you possess more knowledge than St. Thomas Aquinas, or St. Francis od Assisi, or St. Ignatius of Loyola, or any of the Doctors of the Church? I should reject them for your limited understanding? I thionk not.

 

[BRIT72]

I have the infallible teachings of the church going back 2000 years. You have your own lifetime. Or do you possess more knowledge than St. Thomas Aquinas, or St. Francis od Assisi, or St. Ignatius of Loyola, or any of the Doctors of the Church? I should reject them for your limited understanding? I thionk not.

God is infallible and only God.

 

[CWBetts]

God is infallible and only God.

I said infallible, not impeccible. Church teaching is protected from error by the Holy Spirit.Let me reccomend a book. It should be available through interlibrary loan. Catholic Doctrine in Scripture by Gregroy Oatis. Published by CH Resources. You will see that there is nothing in Catholic teaching contrary to Scripture. Why would there be, as the Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BRIT72]

I said infallible, not impeccible. Church teaching is protected from error by the Holy Spirit.Let me reccomend a book. It should be available through interlibrary loan. Catholic Doctrine in Scripture by Gregroy Oatis. Published by CH Resources. You will see that there is nothing in Catholic teaching contrary to Scripture. Why would there be, as the Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I must have been imagineing all the thing’s that go against Scripture.

I repeat, only God is infallible.