Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

[workingman]

Originally Posted by always_gr8ful
That’s right. You don’t NEED to repent or say sorry or feel bad - you are already forgiven, your salvation is sealed.

As guanophore already pointed out this is contrairy to what the apostels taught. Not only is this contrairy to the apostels teaching but Jesus Christ teaching. See the following

John 20:21-23; Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I sent you."When he had sid this, he breathed on them and said to them “Receive the Holy Spirit If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any they are retained.”

It is also taught in James 5:16; Therefore confess your sins to on another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

 

[Contarini]

Let’s see - I’ve made 228 posts out of 830. I’d say that’s some good give-and-take, especially when you consider that at least 90% of my posts are the Word of God.

Quoting Scripture without explaining and defending your interpretation does nothing to advance discussion. You persist in the ridiculous assumption that those of us who disagree with you have not read the Scriptures. We have read them, and we interpret them differently from you. Until you face this fact you will be unable to communicate meaningfully.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I’m really starting to believe that y’all have little cheat-sheets somewhere because everyone throws out the same verses out of context. We have gone over this one 3 times now.

Read above that verse please. Whose Name did Peter tell the crowd to call on to be saved? (verse 21) Whose Name forgives sin? (verse 38)

You are arguing against a straw man. We are not saying that baptism forgives sin apart from Christ. We are saying that baptism is a means of grace.

You keep setting baptism up against Christ, but you have given us no reason to take such an odd approach, which would require us to do violence to most of the passages where Scripture speaks of baptism.

I repeat what I have said many times before: this is an assumption that you bring to Scripture. It is not something that you find there.

Edwin

 

[BRIT72]

Quoting Scripture without explaining and defending your interpretation does nothing to advance discussion. You persist in the ridiculous assumption that those of us who disagree with you have not read the Scriptures. We have read them, and we interpret them differently from you. Until you face this fact you will be unable to communicate meaningfully.

Edwin

I would say that he hopes by quoting the Scriptures, that you will suddenly understand, as God uses his Scriptures to open up peoples understanding.

 

[ChristusVincit]

I would say that he hopes by quoting the Scriptures, that you will suddenly understand, as God uses his Scriptures to open up peoples understanding.

Brit you yourself said that you’re a recent convert. You don’t understand yet, and you don’t understand Jesus yet - if at all. The Jesus you are toting is an idol, a warm fuzzy teddy bear that makes you feel safe because you are assured of your salvation.

Our Jesus - the true one, who is sitting at the right hand of God, and also in every tabernacle in the world - is challenging, constantly forcing us to rethink our own lives and how we live. We have the guarantee of the Holy Spirit and Jesus himself - and also, history is on our side.

I’m not saying that there are no Protestants who have a true understanding of our Lord. I’ll presume they do until they say things like this to prove they are miles from the truth!

 

[CWBetts]

I must have been imagineing all the thing’s that go against Scripture.

I repeat, only God is infallible.

Name one Dogma contrary to Scripture

 

[always_gr8ful]

As guanophore already pointed out this is contrairy to what the apostels taught. Not only is this contrairy to the apostels teaching but Jesus Christ teaching. See the following

John 20:21-23; Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I sent you."When he had sid this, he breathed on them and said to them “Receive the Holy Spirit If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any they are retained.”

It is also taught in James 5:16; Therefore confess your sins to on another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective.

Hi Workingman. I see your scripture, but I don’t see where repentance or confession is a requirement of salvation.(?)

 

[BRIT72]

Name one Dogma contrary to Scripture

Only one, ok here is one.

The immaculate conception!

Mary while blessed among women was a sinner and she needed a Saviour, just like everyone else.

Proof of her being a sinner

Firstly, all men have sinned, including Mary, and fallen short of the glory of God [Rom 3:23], and through one man sin entered the world and death spread to all men [Rom 5:12]. King David writing in Psalms says that he was brought forth in iniquity and in sin when his mother conceived him - biblical proof of mankinds sinful nature from the time of conception. [Psa 51:5]. According to the law of Moses every mother that conceived, either a male or female, had to after an appointed time offer sacrifices to God: one as a burnt offering, and one as a sin offering [Lev.12]. Mary, after conceiving Jesus made these sacrifices in accordance and obedience to the Law God gave to Moses. This is clearly indicated to us in the book of Luke chap. 2 ver. 21-24, as Mary applies this very observance as is required of every Jewish woman who conceives her first born son. Read Leviticus 12 is first, understand what is being said, then read Luke 2:21-24. Once reading and understanding what is being said, it is clear that the offering Mary offers makes according to … law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons. [Lk.2:24], … the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: … [Lev. 12:8]. The sin offering Mary gives is sufficient evidence Mary’s carnality.

In need of a Saviour

Other proof of Mary being a sinner is found when Mary declares the need of a saviour. One is only in need of a saviour when realizing they are helpless and hopeless; that God in Christ having paid the penalty for the sins of mankind, is the One in Whom we are able to find redemption. [Col.1:12-14]. Mary also said, “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour” [Luke 1:46,47]. Again, Mary admits her estate as the handmaiden of God and not “Mother of God”. Admiting her estate as a handmaiden because God used her instrumentally as a vessel to conceive the Lord Jesus Christ. By Mary s own words, she removes any idea of pre-emanance so as not to assume exaltation above God s calling upon her life. “For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed” [Luke 1:48].

Had more than four children

The Scriptures catergorically state the family Jesus had, and that Mary did conceive after the birth of Jesus. She never remained a virgin, and can never be considered “immaculate” as the Roman Catholic Church has exalteded her to be. “Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?” (Mat 13:55,56).

Not Mediatrix

Mary as mediatrix is unfounded in Scripture. Scripture tells us who makes intercession for the saints before the Father.

There are two mediators in Scripture, who are:

Firstly, the Lord Jesus Christ.

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to
continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. [Heb 7:22-25].

Secondly, the Holy Spirit.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. [Rom 8:26,27].

 

[guanophore]

That’s right, you don’t call it “works”. You call it finishing what Jesus “started”.

No, you will not find this in any Catholic teaching either. This must be from the “gr8ful book of Catholic misunderstandings.”

It is God who is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. He is the author and finisher of the Work. He is able to make us stand until that Day, when the hearts of men are judged.

My point is STILL the same and won't change because His Word will never change. There are no conditions to Salvation. Belief plus nothing.

There sure are plenty of contradictions in your theology, though. You say repentance is not required, scripture attests that the Apostles taught that it is.

However, I believe that you will not “change”. It seems that you are not willing to let go of your prejudice and misinformation.

God is infallible and only God.

This is precisely why it can only be His Spirit, working through men, to do infallible acts in the Church. If this were not possible, we would not have a NT, since it was written by men, moved by the Spirit, who spoke from God.

 

[BRIT72]

No, you will not find this in any Catholic teaching either. This must be from the “gr8ful book of Catholic misunderstandings.”

It is God who is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. He is the author and finisher of the Work. He is able to make us stand until that Day, when the hearts of men are judged.

There sure are plenty of contradictions in your theology, though. You say repentance is not required, scripture attests that the Apostles taught that it is.

However, I believe that you will not “change”. It seems that you are not willing to let go of your prejudice and misinformation.

This is precisely why it can only be His Spirit, working through men, to do infallible acts in the Church. If this were not possible, we would not have a NT, since it was written by men, moved by the Spirit, who spoke from God.

The Scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but anything that goes against Scripture is obviously not from God.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Brit you yourself said that you’re a recent convert. You don’t understand yet, and you don’t understand Jesus yet - if at all. The Jesus you are toting is an idol, a warm fuzzy teddy bear that makes you feel safe because you are assured of your salvation.

Our Jesus - the true one, who is sitting at the right hand of God, and also in every tabernacle in the world - is challenging, constantly forcing us to rethink our own lives and how we live. We have the guarantee of the Holy Spirit and Jesus himself - and also, history is on our side.

I’m not saying that there are no Protestants who have a true understanding of our Lord. I’ll presume they do until they say things like this to prove they are miles from the truth!

My Jesus, my Savior, is sitting at the right hand of God and is challenging, urging me to examine my life, motives, actions and relationships with people and with God through the Holy Spirit.

There seems to be the misconception that once saved (once and for all), we have no desire to serve God. This is FAR from the truth! The Holy Spirit alive in us is constantly challenging us to go up higher. THIS is a process, even a painful one at times, but it has nothing what-so-ever to do with Salvation.

Do you see what I’m saying? We are to rest in our salvation, and stand for the liberty that Christ set us free. A person would have to completely ignore the Holy Spirit in order NOT to live a changed life, and in that case, I might wonder if that person were truly saved. Wouldn’t you?

So the difference in Church teaching and what the Word of God says is, we trust in, rest in, have faith in, rely on the finished work of the Cross for our salvation AND justification. We move on to the process of sanctification, listening to relying on and trusting the truth of His Word and the Holy Spirit living on the inside of us, now with a great desire to please God and walk in His ways. Not because we HAVE to, but because we really WANT to.

 

[CWBetts]

Only one, ok here is one.

The immaculate conception!

Mary while blessed among women was a sinner and she needed a Saviour, just like everyone else.

Proof of her being a sinner

Firstly, all men have sinned, including Mary, and fallen short of the glory of God [Rom 3:23], and through one man sin entered the world and death spread to all men [Rom 5:12]. King David writing in Psalms says that he was brought forth in iniquity and in sin when his mother conceived him - biblical proof of mankinds sinful nature from the time of conception. [Psa 51:5]. According to the law of Moses every mother that conceived, either a male or female, had to after an appointed time offer sacrifices to God: one as a burnt offering, and one as a sin offering [Lev.12]. Mary, after conceiving Jesus made these sacrifices in accordance and obedience to the Law God gave to Moses. This is clearly indicated to us in the book of Luke chap. 2 ver. 21-24, as Mary applies this very observance as is required of every Jewish woman who conceives her first born son. Read Leviticus 12 is first, understand what is being said, then read Luke 2:21-24. Once reading and understanding what is being said, it is clear that the offering Mary offers makes according to … law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons. [Lk.2:24], … the one for the burnt offering, and the other for a sin offering: … [Lev. 12:8]. The sin offering Mary gives is sufficient evidence Mary’s carnality.

In need of a Saviour

Other proof of Mary being a sinner is found when Mary declares the need of a saviour. One is only in need of a saviour when realizing they are helpless and hopeless; that God in Christ having paid the penalty for the sins of mankind, is the One in Whom we are able to find redemption. [Col.1:12-14]. Mary also said, “My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour” [Luke 1:46,47]. Again, Mary admits her estate as the handmaiden of God and not “Mother of God”. Admiting her estate as a handmaiden because God used her instrumentally as a vessel to conceive the Lord Jesus Christ. By Mary s own words, she removes any idea of pre-emanance so as not to assume exaltation above God s calling upon her life. “For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed” [Luke 1:48].

Had more than four children

The Scriptures catergorically state the family Jesus had, and that Mary did conceive after the birth of Jesus. She never remained a virgin, and can never be considered “immaculate” as the Roman Catholic Church has exalteded her to be. “Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?” (Mat 13:55,56).

Not Mediatrix

Mary as mediatrix is unfounded in Scripture. Scripture tells us who makes intercession for the saints before the Father.

There are two mediators in Scripture, who are:

Firstly, the Lord Jesus Christ.

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to
continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. [Heb 7:22-25].

Secondly, the Holy Spirit.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. [Rom 8:26,27].

I will get back to you on these, as I am not at home, and the Marian Doctrines are not my strong suit, though I have references at home. After all, I am not a human library. I will refute these but time is needed. BTW if any other Catholics want to step up , the floor is yours.

 

[guanophore]

I must have been imagineing all the thing’s that go against Scripture.

Yes. this is not uncommon. People either don’t understand Scripture, or don’t understand Sacred Tradition, or both. They cannot contradict, because both have their Source in God, and He does not contradict Himself.

I would say that he hopes by quoting the Scriptures, that you will suddenly understand, as God uses his Scriptures to open up peoples understanding.

She is making the assumption, as Edwin pointed out, that we do not read or know the scriptures. This is an inaccurate assumption. We understand the Scriptures in the light of the Aposotlic Teaching. the reason we don’t understand them the way she does is because she is interpreting them according to an extra-biblical man made tradition.

The Scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but anything that goes against Scripture is obviously not from God.

Indeed, both the Scripture and the Teachings of the church are inspired by the HS. There are no contradictions. The only contradiction is in your mind.

 

[always_gr8ful]

No, you will not find this in any Catholic teaching either. This must be from the “gr8ful book of Catholic misunderstandings.”

It is God who is at work in us to will and to do His good pleasure. He is the author and finisher of the Work. He is able to make us stand until that Day, when the hearts of men are judged.

Sounds like you agree. That’s great! BTW, it was a Catholic on this thread that insisted in the teaching of finishing what Jesus “started”.

 

[BRIT72]

My Jesus, my Savior, is sitting at the right hand of God and is challenging, urging me to examine my life, motives, actions and relationships with people and with God through the Holy Spirit.

There seems to be the misconception that once saved (once and for all), we have no desire to serve God. This is FAR from the truth! The Holy Spirit alive in us is constantly challenging us to go up higher. THIS is a process, even a painful one at times, but it has nothing what-so-ever to do with Salvation.

Do you see what I’m saying? We are to rest in our salvation, and stand for the liberty that Christ set us free. A person would have to completely ignore the Holy Spirit in order NOT to live a changed life, and in that case, I might wonder if that person were truly saved. Wouldn’t you?

So the difference in Church teaching and what the Word of God says is, we trust in, rest in, have faith in, rely on the finished work of the Cross for our salvation AND justification. We move on to the process of sanctification, listening to relying on and trusting the truth of His Word and the Holy Spirit living on the inside of us, now with a great desire to please God and walk in His ways. Not because we HAVE to, but because we really WANT to.

Great post.

 

[BRIT72]

I will get back to you on these, as I am not at home, and the Marian Doctrines are not my strong suit, though I have references at home. After all, I am not a human library. I will refute these but time is needed. BTW if any other Catholics want to step up , the floor is yours.

You don’t need to be a human library, you just need to look at what God’s word says.

 

[guanophore]

Sounds like you agree. That’s great! BTW, it was a Catholic on this thread that insisted in the teaching of finishing what Jesus “started”.

We do participate in His finished work. We add ourselves to His cross, and we work out what is at work in us. We do need to finish the race. You seem to imagine that we do this of ourselves, instead of by God’s grace.

 

[guanophore]

Hi Workingman. I see your scripture, but I don’t see where repentance or confession is a requirement of salvation.(?)

What does your bible say where ours says “repent”?

Acts 2:37-38

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 17:30-31
30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,

Do you think that God commands things that are not necessary?

 

[BRIT72]

We do participate in His finished work. We add ourselves to His cross, and we work out what is at work in us. We do need to finish the race. You seem to imagine that we do this of ourselves, instead of by God’s grace.

You are adding to Christ’s finished work.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Salvation is NOT belief plus nothing. THis cannot be found anywhere in the scriptures. James Chapter two does an excellent job of expalining this. FInd me ONE verse with the exact words “Faith alone” Just one. If salvation by faith alone is so important, the phrase must be in the Scriptures somewhere.

James 2 seem to be the biggest obstacle in understanding, so since you won’t concede that perhaps you are missing the point of James 2, let’s look at your interpretation in the light of all other scripture that says “belief” plus nothing:

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 8:12
Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

John 1:7
He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe.

John 1:12
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

John 2:23
Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him."

John 4:41
And because of his words many more became believers.

John 5:24
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:29
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:35
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:47
I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.

John 7:38-39
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;

John 11:26
and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

John 11:40
Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?”

John 12:46
I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

John 16:27
No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

John 17:20-21
Jesus Prays for All Believers ] “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.”

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.