Evangelicals Will Be Extinct Within Ten Years

[workingman]

Originally Posted by always_gr8ful I have posted numerous scriptures that show we cannot lose our salvation.

We can loose our salvation. Lets look at

1Corinthians9:24-27; Do you not know that in a race the runners all compete, but only one recives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win it. Athletes exercise self-controle in all things; they do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable one. So I do not run aimlesly, nor do I box as though beating the air; but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.

Paul is clearly saying that if we do not properly train our self in persavierence we can “be disqualified” Loose our salvation. Disqualified is translated from the greek word Adokimos which litteraly translated means cut off from Christ.
Other scripture that show we can loose salvation

Romans 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debase mind and to things that should not be done

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

2Timothy 3:8 As jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these people, of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith, also oppose the truth.

Hebrews 6:8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and on the verg of bing cursed; its end is to be burned over.

2Corinthians 13:5-7 Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed you fail to meet the test!I hope you will find out that we have not failed. But we pray to God that you may no do anything wrong not that we may appear to have met the test but that you may do what is right though we may seem to have failed.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Thanks love. but I need to walk away now. I am doing no one any good now.

My suggestion would be that you speak to people the way you would like to be spoken to. When you became flip with me, I said that it was becoming obvious that you weren’t as serious in this discussion as I had previously thought. Example:

Rinnie "Sorry don’t see it yet. FAITH ALONE keep trying! Will check back later. By the way, will you answer my questions I posted? They are easy ones. STIll waiting! "

**Me:"**Though it is becoming obvious that you are not as serious about learning what is the truth (because we know there can only be One Truth) as I first believed, I’m not tired and will continue on."

After I said your question about faith alone was odd in that it was Jesus alone, I posted 2 pages of single line scripture that confirmed that (starts on page 35 I think). Here was your reply:

Rinnie “You darn right I did. And you can’t answer it can you. Show it to me then, why is the question odd you keep preaching it. You said we are justiied by Grace ALone not works did you not? SO show me the scripture, OR did you add to it?
You have refused or been unable to do so to date, Now why. If you are correct and My Church is wrong why cant’t you prove your point. Still waiting?”

Me: "My salvation is through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone. I am saved through Him. I am justified through Him. Period. His work was finished. I can add nothing to it "

Rinnie "First of All Marsha, I have to go out today but while I am gone if you have time, or anyone else could you please explain to Always what Paul is talking about when he says works of the law.

"You SOMEONE, ANYONE explain to her that he was referring to circumcision and the the works required of the Jew under the MOSAIC LAW! That good works in general is totally different. And we are under the new law.

“Now if you or anyone can get that point across and work on that I really think we can make some progress.”

Rinnie “Always takes one verse makes it work with another verse and trys to make it work for the whole bible. As I have and many have proven her wrong, IT does not work She could not answer ONE question correction to fit into her plan of salvation. You will see my last post I tried to give the CLUE and even correct myself but it flew by. am sorry Always you refuse to obey the word and call it Mans word. IT was Gods word not mans. You are very comfused here. Very. Marsha show her. SOmeo ne please explain this to her.”

Rinnie “Always the only thing I can figure is 2 things. either you really don’t understand the bible. Or you are Jewish and reject Jesus. That can be the only 2 things.”

Me, I don’t care. I don’t get “angry” or even offended. I forgive and forget so fast that it all is a non-issue to me. But you seem perplexed that a person won’t just lay there and be walked on, and since I had to go back to find scripture, I thought I would help ya out a bit. I think I’ve done well to suffer your lies such as “Always takes one verse makes it work with another verse and trys to make it work for the whole bible” when I make a point of showing all scripture in context. Getting the Truth of the Word of God out is all that matters to me.

 

[always_gr8ful]

I never got a answer to scripture that says we can never lose salvation. My Church teaches that we can all lose salvation. If you could post just that scripture I will apologize for myself and for my church. I have explained to you numerous times it it easy to lose Salvation. Mortal Sin. That is what my Church teaches. You said we can still have salvation and have mortal sin. SHow me. My church states the opposite it says you cannot get into heaven if you die in mortal sin. The bible says that sin separates us from God, You said nothing can. I have showed you scripture to prove it. you ignore it.

If sin separates us from God, what did Jesus die for? Does it even matter to you that the Word of God says that NOTHING can separate us for the love of God in Christ Jesus? I noticed you didn’t answer my question of which has total authority in contradiction - the Word of God or Church doctrine.

I don’t want your apology. It would be nice, though, if you were a little more careful of your facts when speaking about others.

Hi wizkid!
What I’ve been doing is looking for scripture that says we can lose our salvation. After wondering all day if Revelations said we could, and then seeing scripture doesn’t say that, I realized I was trying to prove a negative, which can’t be done.

So I looked for scripture that says we CAN’T lose our salvation, and found a doosy.

Jesus speaking:
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
~John 5:24

If you don’t read this until tomorrow, what an awesome, AWESOME way to start Passover - with the blessed assurance that if you believe, plus nothing, you will not be condemned -ever!

“But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.”
~Romans 5:20-21

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
~Romans 6:23

There is a difference of opinion with the scripture above, as some feel that a gift can be taken back, or given back. This one isn’t as clear as the others, so will probably get the most attention.

My turn!

"Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”
~John 10:25-30

And this one:

“Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.”
~2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Hi Marsha!
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

a burger,

Just as there are many more verses that I can post that contradict this one strongly that don’t use metaphor. Shall we have the battle of the verses?

Searching the scripture these last few days has convinced me of once saved, always saved. OSAS was something I never even thought about until I found this board/thread, as I have always had the blessed assurance. Oh, there’s been times I’ve doubted over the years, but I can always trace my doubt to my shortcomings and guilt - thinking that I was just too bad for Jesus to come through for me at times. Other times, I have soured in my self righteousness, thinking that God must sure be pleased with me! LOL.

In my now middle life, I have come to a much deeper understanding of the sacrifice Jesus made for me and my standing in the scheme of things. I know that every good thing in me, He put there. I know that I can’t take credit for even the good things I do. Pride went out the window as I came to realize that had He not chosen me, I would be like those who hate me, so how could I not love them? I discovered that it’s not my sins that concern Him, but my relationships with every single person I come into contact with, family, friends, strangers, you. And my relationship with Him. If I know anything at all of His Truth, He showed it to me so I can’t even brag of my studies.

It’s very humbling. I suppose that when a person gets to this realization and then see all that others do trying to put their dirty hands on His perfect Gift, it’s a bit much to take. But what I may perceive as a slap in the face of Jesus, to Him may only be what is expected by Him, because He was once a man too (thought perfect).
I don’t know. All I know is that when I stand before Jesus, He’s not going to ask me about a burger. He’s going to ask me about me.

So will I teach OSAS? No. It was a non-issue for me before I came here, and since I have blessed assurance, is a non-issue now. So please don’t worry that I will lead others astray. I teach Jesus Christ as Savior through belief alone - the Word of God. And if someone questions their salvation, then I would suggest that they seek God for their blessed assurance, and God alone. I know He is faithful and will give them the assurance they need.

 

[always_gr8ful]

We can loose our salvation. Lets look at

Paul is clearly saying that if we do not properly train our self in persavierence we can “be disqualified” Loose our salvation. Disqualified is translated from the greek word Adokimos which litteraly translated means cut off from Christ.

Yes, Marsha posted that verse about 15 pages ago (no offense). Paul is doubting himself. In context, he is only speaking of himself. In context, his disqualification is that of teaching the gospel.

Other scripture that show we can loose salvation

Other scripture that show we can loose salvation

Romans 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debase mind and to things that should not be done.

Not only does this verse say anyone lost their salvation, but it’s talking about the unsaved, not those who have accepted Jesus. We know this by reading the verses in front of it:

20 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God…”

In other words, atheists can’t get away with saying there is no God, because God has shown Himself to them through His creation. When they make the choice to reject Him, He gives them up to a debase mind. I have the opinion that there are two kinds of atheists - the saved atheist (lost sheep) that may or may not come back to the love of Christ, and the unsaved atheist that, no matter what his testimony of ever believing, works hard at trying to be shocking and crude. Just my opinion.

Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

You know, you can find an answer to any question you have on the internet. But if you are looking for the answer you want to hear, you won’t always get the Truth. I’m finding it hard to believe that you looked at these scriptures in context, as opposed to finding a list somewhere that said these say we can lose our salvation.

In context, you only need to read the verse before it:

15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

2Timothy 3:8 As jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these people, of corrupt mind and counterfeit faith, also oppose the truth.

I’m not even going to go look at the context. Asking you, believer or non-believer?

Hebrews 6:8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and on the verg of bing cursed; its end is to be burned over…

Metaphor. Doesn’t say they will lose their salvation, ESPECIALLY in the light of the strong language in the scripture posted in my previous post that no way will they be cast out, no one can snatch them away, shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life, shall never perish, sealed, guaranteeing what is to come, etc.
.

2Corinthians 13:5-7 Examine yourselves to see whether you are living in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed you fail to meet the test!I hope you will find out that we have not failed. But we pray to God that you may no do anything wrong not that we may appear to have met the test but that you may do what is right though we may seem to have failed.

Don’t know why you posted that one. It certainly doesn’t say we can lose our salvation. It’s one of the biggest exhortations to PROVE our salvation to ourselves. We are to have that blessed assurance because we have the Holy Spirit living inside us.

 

[always_gr8ful]

Back to the subject of searching the internet (or church doctrine) for a line of scripture out of context to try to prove a point - I heard someone call it “Leopard Christianity” - the Bible is only true in spots and they know all the spots.

 

[workingman]

always_gr8ful
Yes, Marsha posted that verse about 15 pages ago (no offense). Paul is doubting himself. In context, he is only speaking of himself. In context, his disqualification is that of teaching the gospel.

Sorry must have forgotten. If the truth did not work then why would it now ( no offense). Paul is not doubting him self. Also if we put it in your context if it applies to Paul would it not also be applicable to other humans also.?

I’m not even going to go look at the context. Asking you, believer or non-believer?

Of course you won’t. Yes I am to answer your question bluntly. I am baptized, are you? Baptism is not symbolic. The Lords Supper is not symbolic.Christ died for the atonement of my sins and all Definatly not symbolic.I spose you think we don’t need any good works either. I am not talking works of the law but good works that are isnstilled in us from our salvation. Good fruit bears good works. Also see the parable of the sower.

Back to the subject of searching the internet (or church doctrine) for a line of scripture out of context to try to prove a point - I heard someone call it “Leopard Christianity” - the Bible is only true in spots and they know all the spots.

I don’t know where you got this quote from since you don’t list the source. Those verses listed were all biblcal and in context. They are only out of context to you be cause you think sola scripture is enough. Show me in the Bible where it says it interpretets it self and it is enough. YOU can not because it is not there. Who do you think gave you this Bible that you say is always self interpreting. According to your theology on what I have posted so far James and Romans competely contradict eachother. So if that is the case would you like to throw out the book of James or Romans? I know where my theology comes from the majesterium of the church, Sacred Scripture, Traditions, and the Church Fathers all the way back to Pete the first pope. Sola Scripture is never ever enough.

 

[guanophore]

If sin separates us from God, what did Jesus die for?

A better question might be, if sin DOES NOT separate us from God, then what did He die for?

What reason would there be for God to make Him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us?

Does it even matter to you that the Word of God says that NOTHING can separate us for the love of God in Christ Jesus?

Nothing can separate us from the love of God. However, you are assuming that God’s love is not just. Nothing unclean can enter heaven. If we sin, even though He loves us, He will let us walk away from Him, right through the gates of hell.

I noticed you didn’t answer my question of which has total authority in contradiction - the Word of God or Church doctrine.

There is no contradiction. Both come from God, so they cannot contradict.

I don’t want your apology. It would be nice, though, if you were a little more careful of your facts when speaking about others.

This is an interesting statement, from a person who has made many mistatements about the Catholic faith, and has informed us that we believe in doctrines that come from the devil. Would you consider the log in your own eye?

There is a difference of opinion with the scripture above, as some feel that a gift can be taken back, or given back. This one isn’t as clear as the others, so will probably get the most attention.

A gift can also be left by the side of the road. To be useful, a gift must be recieved. This is an action and attitude on the part of the recipient. However, the gifts and call of God are irrevocable. He will not stop offering the gift of salvation to men, even if we refuse it.

 

[guanophore]

Me: "My salvation is through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ alone. I am saved through Him. I am justified through Him. Period. His work was finished. I can add nothing to it "

Actually, this is one of the most serious errors of the modern evangelical movement. The fact is, we are responsible for adding ourselves to Jesus work. His work is sufficient for all, but not all will be saved. Why not? Because they do not choose to get themselves into the River of Life!

Me, I don’t care. … Getting the Truth of the Word of God out is all that matters to me.

If this is the case, always, then you are in the wrong place. CAF is not a venue provided for you to attempt to evangelize all of us poor lost Catholics, or to pursuade us to give up the Sacred Traditions committed to us by the Apostles so that we can embrace a deficient gospel of “bible christianity”, separated from the promises of Christ.

You may wish to consider starting your own web site, then you can invite ignorant Catholics there and try this 'getting the truth out". what you are putting out here will be seen by educated Catholics as a “different gospel” than the one which was committed to us. As such, it must be rejected.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Actually, this is one of the most serious errors of the modern evangelical movement. The fact is, we are responsible for adding ourselves to Jesus work. His work is sufficient for all, but not all will be saved. Why not? Because they do not choose to get themselves into the River of Life!.

You mean the Tiber river don’t you? Haven’t you guys heard, the Tiber is an incredibly polluted river. In fact in a study of which cities inhabitants used the most cocaine Rome topped the list. Scientists did the study by looking at the water in the Tiber (where their sewage treatments plants out-pour to).

 

[always_gr8ful]

Sorry must have forgotten. If the truth did not work then why would it now ( no offense).

Did you read the entire scripture before posting to me?
The Apostles had been giving Paul a hard time. He was doing very un-Jewish things and they were still hung-up on the law. This letter is his defense of himself and his authority to preach the gospel.

1 Corinthians 9
1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,

4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?

5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?

7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

See, it doesn’t matter what “disqualified” means in Greek. You don’t have to look up every word in the Greek to understand scripture. The KJV uses “castaway”. The Amplified Bible uses "rejected as a counterfeit:

27But [like a boxer] I buffet my body [handle it roughly, discipline it by hardships] and subdue it, for fear that after proclaiming to others the Gospel and things pertaining to it, I myself should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit].

Checking all versions, most use “disqualified”, and in light of all over scripture, including where Paul tells us “there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”, we can’t take this scripture in context and say it means condemned.

Listen, I’m not saying I’m always right. Lord knows I have been wrong before. But picking and choosing verses that say what you want them to say is not being open to the Truth of the Word. God has a message He is trying to get to us. Just be open to it no matter where the chips fall. That’s all I can suggest.

Of course you won’t. Yes I am to answer your question bluntly.

Oh, no no no! The scripture! I was asking you if the scripture was talking about someone who is saved or unsaved (the answer being unsaved). Oh, I should have been more clear. (((workingman))) (hugs)

I don’t know where you got this quote from since you don’t list the source. Those verses listed were all biblcal and in context. They are only out of context to you be cause you think sola scripture is enough. .

I don’t know what sola scripture is, though I can guess by it’s name.

Show me in the Bible where it says it interpretets it self and it is enough. YOU can not because it is not there. Who do you think gave you this Bible that you say is always self interpreting

I kind of have a problem with people who put words in my mouth and say “you said” when I said no such thing. Now, maybe you have me confused with someone else, but please be more careful when making statements as facts about others.

According to your theology on what I have posted so far James and Romans competely contradict each other.

Your turn to show me. Show me how James and Romans completely contradict each other, because I don’t see it. (and I have no theology. I simply believe what I read in His Word)

 

[workingman]

always_gr8ful;5096327]Did you read the entire scripture before posting to me?
The Apostles had been giving Paul a hard time. He was doing very un-Jewish things and they were still hung-up on the law. This letter is his defense of himself and his authority to preach the gospel.

1 Corinthians 9
1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.

3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,

4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?

5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?

7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

And what do you want to say

See, it doesn’t matter what “disqualified” means in Greek. You don’t have to look up every word in the Greek to understand scripture. The KJV uses “castaway”. The Amplified Bible uses "rejected as a counterfeit:

It can when translating. The same word in english can have several meanings. Look at the word love. Love in english has 14 definitions, in greek there are seven different words for love. So it can matter. Personal there are better translations than the KJV.

Oh, no no no! The scripture! I was asking you if the scripture was talking about someone who is saved or unsaved (the answer being unsaved). Oh, I should have been more clear. (((workingman))) (hugs)

whoops

I don’t know what sola scripture is, though I can guess by it’s name.

Well you do not “do” church. So am I correct in assuming you do not have a church body you attend? If this is the case I must assume that you do not partake in any sacraments whatsoever, baptism, eucharist, confession and absolution, ect…You from conversation back and forth seem to belive that the Bible is self interpreting, that no traditions set forth from the begining need to be upheld or observed. If I am correct you most likely fit the mold. If I am wrong please correct me.

I kind of have a problem with people who put words in my mouth and say “you said” when I said no such thing. Now, maybe you have me confused with someone else, but please be more careful when making statements as facts about others.

Your turn to show me. Show me how James and Romans completely contradict each other, because I don’t see it. (and I have no theology. I simply believe what I read in His Word)

I am sorry if I put words in your mouth, but erlier in the thread I quoted you James2:14-26
in post#538 then judging by answers in post #586 I don’t feel I realy oversteped by putting words in your mouth. The other problem I see is you say you have no theology. You do it is just your own.

 

[guanophore]

The Apostles had been giving Paul a hard time. He was doing very un-Jewish things and they were still hung-up on the law. This letter is his defense of himself and his authority to preach the gospel.

No, it was not the Apostles that were giving him a hard time. But I do agree, Paul got a lot of hard times from all corners!

See, it doesn’t matter what “disqualified” means in Greek. You don’t have to look up every word in the Greek to understand scripture. The KJV uses “castaway”. The Amplified Bible uses "rejected as a counterfeit:

27But [like a boxer] I buffet my body [handle it roughly, discipline it by hardships] and subdue it, for fear that after proclaiming to others the Gospel and things pertaining to it, I myself should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit].

Checking all versions, most use “disqualified”, and in light of all over scripture, including where Paul tells us “there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”, we can’t take this scripture in context and say it means condemned.

It doesn’t matter what 'disqualified" means in Gk?

So you are saying that the HS, who led the Apostle to choose this word in the inspired and inerrant text, chose poorly?

I agree, though, that it is necessary to understand this passage in the light of all scripture, and especially in the light of what the Apostles taught, which is how we understand the meaning of the Scripture.

And so, “disqualified” in this context of a race, as the Greeks used to run, disqualified meant that one is not eligible for the “prize”.

I know this goes against the man made doctrine of OSAS.

I'm not saying I'm always right. Lord knows I have been wrong before. But picking and choosing verses that say what you want them to say is not being open to the Truth of the Word. God has a message He is trying to get to us. Just be open to it no matter where the chips fall. That's all I can suggest.

It is my fervent hope and prayer that this will be true of you. Many fundamentalists, when they start researching the history of their faith, end up Catholic. Can you handle it if the chips fall that way?

I don't know what sola scripture is, though I can guess by it's name.

It might be useful for you to find this out. You have clearly been influenced and are operating under this man made doctrine,and it is not helping you.

 yur turn to show me. Show me how James and Romans completely contradict each other, because I don't see it. (and I have no theology. I simply believe what I read in His Word)

on the contrary, always, you do clearly have a theology. You may not realize where it comes from at this time, but we have seen a lot of theologies here, and we recognize what we are looking at.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I don’t understand this thread. Why would you guys hope that your religion further shrinks (and a sub-movement within it disappears) within the next ten years? Seems sort of cannibalistic.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t understand this thread. Why would you guys hope that your religion further shrinks (and a sub-movement within it disappears) within the next ten years? Seems sort of cannibalistic.

The evangelical movement, for all it’s benefits, distorts the gospel of Christ, and teaches doctrines that are a departure from the One True Faith committed to the Apostles. Those of us who have kept the Apostolic command to hold to the traditions they delivered to us are always pleased to see counterfeit and deficient expressions of our faith meet their appropriate end.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

The evangelical movement, for all it’s benefits, distorts the gospel of Christ, and teaches doctrines that are a departure from the One True Faith committed to the Apostles. Those of us who have kept the Apostolic command to hold to the traditions they delivered to us are always pleased to see counterfeit and deficient expressions of our faith meet their appropriate end.

I agree fundamental Christians distort the truth and are of little use to the modern world, but I guess for a reason much different than yours. I would only say, in support of your faith, it’s not as bad as Christian fundamentalism (in essence they are what you guys used to be, just speaking from an entirely historical perspective).

They believe the earth is 6,000 years old, which is of course ridiculous. The earth is roughly 4 billion years old, and that is an indisputable fact. They believe a snake literally talked to whom they believe are our first parents, and convinced them to bite an apple (and but for chomping on that apple we would have been quasi-godlike creatures roaming around naked in a really nice garden). I mean … come on? We can’t teach kids this nonsense and hope to remain a global superpower; and even aside from wanting to remain a superpower, I would hope we at least remain prosperous. Superstitious and gullible citizens will just not do the job. It may have worked when the rest of the world was even dumber than we are … but it won’t work for too much longer.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I don’t understand this thread. Why would you guys hope that your religion further shrinks (and a sub-movement within it disappears) within the next ten years? Seems sort of cannibalistic.

No one is hoping that the faith shrinks. Instead we are praying that what Christ prayed in John would come about; that we would all be one.

God bless

 

[humble_in_doubt]

No one is hoping that the faith shrinks. Instead we are praying that what Christ prayed in John would come about; that we would all be one.

God bless

It will be a while before that happens … but it might you never know. Right now most people are stuck in their respective religious corners out of paranoia, ethnic loyalties, superstitions, and so on. I was trained to dislike gay people (by my parents). It’s not that either of them were hateful people, but mom is a hard core Catholic & dad is just a hard core heterosexual. I admit it took me a while to learn not to strongly dislike gay people (its a fact & I don’t mind confessing my stupidity publicly, because public airing of our ills is the best disinfectant).

I admit I still have a hard time understanding how a guy can like other dudes, but I learned to not let it bother me. I’ll probably never advance to the tolerating gay friends level … but oh well

The point is that it’s difficult to move beyond learned behavior and attitudes. It takes rigorous training in logic to be able to think outside of the box that you were raised in. People who believe in talking snakes generally never have the benefit of rigorous training in logic and critical thinking, so I expect you guys will be tossing mud at each other for decades to come.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

It will be a while before that happens … but it might you never know. Right now most people are stuck in their respective religious corners out of paranoia, ethnic loyalties, superstitions, and so on.

I count my reason to Grace, but to each his own.

I was trained to dislike gay people (by my parents). It’s not that either of them were hateful people, but mom is a hard core Catholic & dad is just a hard core heterosexual. I admit it took me a while to learn not to strongly dislike gay people (its a fact & I don’t mind confessing my stupidity publicly, because public airing of our ills is the best disinfectant).

I do not dislike gay people. For all have sinned and fallen short… Everyone is in need of God’s Grace. Not just heterosexuals.

People who believe in talking snakes generally never have the benefit of rigorous training in logic and critical thinking, so I expect you guys will be tossing mud at each other for decades to come.

You have as low opinion of Christians as I have ever seen. Was this learned? It was in a post-modern, secular university that was supposed to be teaching me “critical thinking” that I found Christ. As a Christian I ended up graduating summa cum laude with double majors… Not bad for someone lacking “critical thinking” huh?

God bless you humble and good night.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

I count my reason to Grace, but to each his own.

I’m just curious … you say to me to each his own, but to the evangelical Christian (who is already a converted believer) you say he’s a heretic? Seems peculiar

I do not dislike gay people. For all have sinned and fallen short… Everyone is in need of God’s Grace. Not just heterosexuals.

I don’t think homosexuality is a sin … but I also don’t want to compete over who is more gay friendly (you can have that prize if you want it )

You have as low opinion of Christians as I have ever seen. Was this learned? It was in a post-modern, secular university that was supposed to be teaching me “critical thinking” that I found Christ. As a Christian I ended up graduating summa cum laude with double majors… Not bad for someone lacking “critical thinking” huh?

God bless you humble and good night.

If you would have read carefully I was only referring to fundamental Christians, so why so defensive? I’ve met plenty of intelligent Catholics and protestants (I was raised Catholic, and all the colleges I attended were Catholic). I don’t even say all fundamental Christians are stupid, just most (that I’ve run across anyway).

I mean do you believe the first six chapters of Genesis should be interpreted literally?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I’m just curious … you say to me to each his own, but to the evangelical Christian (who is already a converted believer) you say he’s a heretic? Seems peculiar

Have you ever read a post of mine where I have called someone a heretic? Go ahead and look through my 1500 some odd posts; you will not find one post where I have called a brother in Christ a heretic.

I don’t think homosexuality is a sin … but I also don’t want to compete over who is more gay friendly (you can have that prize if you want it )

But you think it is unnatural and you hold reservations about having friends who are gay?

If you would have read carefully I was only referring to fundamental Christians, so why so defensive? I’ve met plenty of intelligent Catholics and protestants (I was raised Catholic, and all the colleges I attended were Catholic). I don’t even say all fundamental Christians are stupid, just most (that I’ve run across anyway).

Thanks for the clarification.

God bless