Evangelism question

[Della]

Sin is like killing people and stuff.

So, arrogance, presumption, and pride are not sins? That’s a new one on me!

 

[brosam]

Brosam, I understand exactly what you’re saying… because before I converted, I was a Southern Baptist who said the same things.

OK. As a Southern Baptist, how would you have shared the Gospel?

While the responses that I give may not work in and of themselves on an anonymous internet forum, I believe that when coupled with living a faithful Catholic life and not hiding one’s faith they can be very effective.

So, let’s say that I’m still the unsaved sinner. I’m looking at mannag and thinking, “boy, that guy sure is one faithful Roman Catholic!” I continue to watch you be a faithful Catholic for years and years, but you never share the Gospel with me because you just want me to see what a faithful Catholic you are.

Then, one day as I’m admiring your devotion to your faith, I say to myself, “Oooh. My chest feels a little funny. I think I’ll get that checked out on Monday. Boy, it’s getting a little hard to breath. Oh, no! I think I’m having a heart attaaaa” and I drop dead.

As they’re carrying my dead lifeless body out of the house, you come out to see what the commotion is all about and, when you do, you trip over the garden hose your kid carelessly left lying on the steps. You hit your head and die.

Now, we’re both dead and we’re standing before God to be judged.

God looks at me and says, “You’re guilty. I have no choice but to send you to Hell. But, before you go…”

He then turns to you and says, “Would you like to explain to this gentleman why you never shared the Gospel with him like I told you to?”

What is your response?

I would love to continue this discussion, but for now I am at work and actually need to get some work done

Come work where I work. That’s what we have teenagers for.

 

[brosam]

So, arrogance, presumption, and pride are not sins? That’s a new one on me!

Maybe, but I’m not arrogant or prideful and I’ve never presumed anything about anybody.

 

[Hellisreal]

So, arrogance, presumption, and pride are not sins? That’s a new one on me!

I sorta thought Lust would count. I guess I need to take my catholic blinders off so I can eliminate things to strive for.

 

[brosam]

First, I to do my best to be a good example for and of Christ. I think it important for you to see and experience that I try to walk the walk before they hear me talk the talk. The non-believer has been searching (it is burned in our heart by God) their entire life and been disapointed many times. They don’t need another false prophet who will only disappoint them again.

OK. You’ve convinced me that you’re a good person. Now what?

Second, I will pray asking for the Holy Spirit to use me according to His plan for this person.

But the Bible has already told you what His plan is. We’re to share the Gospel with the lost.

Conversion happens on God’s time and not mine.

I agree. However, there is no such time restriction on sharing the Gospel.

Too many times, while well-intentioned, I believe people’s efforts to spread the Gospel are counterproductive because they did what THEY thought best instead of asking for God’s direction.

I agree. So, how do you know that trying to convince someone into the Kingdom by your own goodness isn’t counterproductive?

Third, I will make myself available to them as friend. If they see the joy and peace I have in my life and the lack of it in their life (true Peace is only found in Christ), they will start desiring what I have.

And what if they already have joy and peace?

Fourth, I will only speak to them in Truth.

I agree, but what truth will you speak to them?

When appropriate and inspired by the Holy Spirit, I will introduce Scripture.

When is God’s word ever inappropriate?

St. Francis taught “Always preach the Gospel, use words when necessary.”

OK. Try this:

“Feed starving children. Use words if necessary”. Doesn’t work, does it? So how can you hope to preach the Gospel without words?

Brosam, I chuckle that all you see in Catholic evangalization is an attempt to bring them in the Catholic Church.

Every thread in the “evangelization” (sic) forum is about getting people in to the Roman Catholic church.

But as you can see at th beginning of this post, it isn’t the only way to evangelize.

But it is the Biblical way.

 

[St_Gabriel]

You haven’t answered my question, I would still like to know what do you mean by stuff. See, I think it would good if we were both speaking the same language in order to understand one another. Catholics have a different understanding of what stuff is. I can give you a quote you from the catechism of the catholic church, but its a few pages long. The Catechism is available on line, it might help you when you are dialoging with us.

 

[Sr_Sally]

They may have different questions, but the Gospel doesn’t change from person to person. It is the same no matter where you go or who you’re talking to.

The Gospel doesn’t change that is very true. But exactly what we say will change.

Then why did Jesus quote scripture so often?

Jesus also told parables that were not part of scripture at that point. He gave examples that would resonate with the people he spoke to. We are called to do the same. How many books have you read or sermons have you heard the explain the agricutural stories of 1st century Palestine in modern words??

So, basically, your method of evangelism is to show them what a good person you are? Doesn’t trying to show them that you’re a good person defeat the idea of the Gospel, that Jesus Christ died for you because you’re a bad person?

And what happens if the person dies before they notice what a good person you are?

No, my method of evangelism is to show them how Christ is working in my life to turn me from bad to good. I hope yours is the same.

 

[guanophore]

So, is this how you would evangelize me?

I’m an unsaved sinner and I’m going to Hell. You mean to tell me that you’re more interested in telling me about your church than you are about giving me the Gospel to keep me out of Hell?

At this point, your hardness of heart against Christ does not make you a likely candidate for conversion. It seems to be a more practical approach to draw your attention to those attitudes and values that are separating you from Jesus.

So then all I have to do is join your church and I’ll be saved? If I join AAA does that make me a car?

More erroneous assumptions and conclusions, brosam. Attending Mass does not equate to joining the Church. Also, if you join AAA, you will become a member of an automobile club, and you will have emergency road service. It is a poor analagy, but if you were to apply it correctly, it might work to some extent. If you join the Catholic Church, you will have the full deposit of faith given to the Apostles by Jesus, an you will have a tow truck to pull you out if you get mired into falsehood.

So, by learning about your beliefs and agreeing with them, I’m saved?

It seems that you are looking for some kind of “easy” or “simple” definition of salvation, but this is not the understanding we have from Jesus and the Apostles. I will say, yes, if you learn about CAtholicism and follow the teachings of Jesus, the possibility of being saved is much better. However, we leave salvation to God, and do not presume that we will be saved. When we have done al that is commanded we say, “we are unworthy servants, and have only done that which is our duty”.

So, by trying really hard not to sin, I’m saved?

Certainly persons who are sinning will not be saved. "Train yourself in godliness; 8 for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9 The saying is sure and worthy of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. "
1 Tim 4:7-10

Catholics are often accused of believing in “works” salvation because we believe we should train ourselves in godliness, and we should “toil and strive” toward the hope of salvation. Yes, one should try really hard not to sin.

I’m free from sin now. I’m not a sinner.

That is an issue between you and God. It is clear that your conscience is unformed, and you are only accountable for what you know, which is limited. You probably have never done an examination of conscience, because you don’t believe in the sacrament of reconciliation. However, I will offer these wise words…

1 John 1:10
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

 

[Orionthehunter]

So, let’s say that I’m still the unsaved sinner. I’m looking at mannag and thinking, “boy, that guy sure is one faithful Roman Catholic!” I continue to watch you be a faithful Catholic for years and years, but you never share the Gospel with me because you just want me to see what a faithful Catholic you are.

Then, one day as I’m admiring your devotion to your faith, I say to myself, “Oooh. My chest feels a little funny. I think I’ll get that checked out on Monday. Boy, it’s getting a little hard to breath. Oh, no! I think I’m having a heart attaaaa” and I drop dead.

As they’re carrying my dead lifeless body out of the house, you come out to see what the commotion is all about and, when you do, you trip over the garden hose your kid carelessly left lying on the steps. You hit your head and die.

Now, we’re both dead and we’re standing before God to be judged.

God looks at me and says, “You’re guilty. I have no choice but to send you to Hell. But, before you go…”

He then turns to you and says, “Would you like to explain to this gentleman why you never shared the Gospel with him like I told you to?”

What is your response?

Cute story. First of all, read my post #20. If I’ve been doing what I describe, God would not say that to me. If you noticed that I’m living a faithful Christian life, you have been hearing the Gospel. As I said, spreading the Gospel is more than just quoting Scripture. And to be effective, the soil has to be prepared.

You also point out that Christ quoted Scripture. He did but He did but it was mostly to the Jews (those already who had an understanding an acceptance of Scripture). For the masses, He used other tactics as well and more often.

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Brosam: OK. You’ve convinced me that you’re a good person. Now what?

I pray that you are just being antagonisitic as a means to a discussion and not being arrogant and condescending.

Now what, did you read the rest of my post.

From Brosam: But the Bible has already told you what His plan is. We’re to share the Gospel with the lost.

The Word has told me to share the Gospel. The Word is more than just Scripture.

From Brosam: I agree. However, there is no such time restriction on sharing the Gospel.

I want to share it when the Holy Spirit has prepared the heart to hear. He is my guide. Just as children weren’t prepared to fully understand the birds and bees, certain souls need to ready. You really don’t see the harm that overly aggressive “evangalists” do, do you? If I had a nickel for every time I’ve had to dispel the harm done by such an “evangalist”, I’d be a rich man.

From Brosam: I agree. So, how do you know that trying to convince someone into the Kingdom by your own goodness isn’t counterproductive?

I will convert nobody by my own goodness. My goodness comes from the Grace of God. You really don’t get what I’m saying do you? I want them to see that I am trying to walk the walk before I try to preach to them.

From Brosam: And what if they already have joy and peace?

Joy and Peace comes from Christ. Everything else is false.

From Brosam: I agree, but what truth will you speak to them?

The Word

From Brosam: When is God’s word ever inappropriate?

Never. I just have a broader understanding of the Word as being more than Scripture. Like St. Francis said, “Always preach the Gospel.” I guess God has armed me with more evangelization weapons. I suppose it is appropriate since my Church contains the Fullness of Truth and has been unchanging since the Great Commission of Peter and the Apostles by Christ Himself.

From Brosam: OK. Try this: “Feed starving children. Use words if necessary”. Doesn’t work, does it? So how can you hope to preach the Gospel without words?

Great example. To preach the Gospel, I have to do something. It isn’t about using Scripture and it isn’t about using words.

From Brosam: Every thread in the “evangelization” (sic) forum is about getting people in to the Roman Catholic church.

Just as every fundamentalists evangelizes Catholics by getting them to leave hte Church? While this forum might have a preponderance of this type of discussion, again, we have a much broader understanding of evangelization. Every thread is a component of evangelization for a Catholic. Moral Theology, Apologetics, Liturgy and Scripture, all are about leading people to Christ.

I guess we are talking past each other because of our more full understanding of the concept of spreading the Good News.

From Brosam: But it is the Biblical way.

It is one of the Biblical ways. Your arrogance is palpable.

Christ told us they will know us by our Love. Isn’t that evangelization?

Christ told us that the Holy Spirit would come to guide us (including in our evangelization efforts) and to Trust the Holy Spirit more than ourselves. To go off half-cocked w/ a single method of evangelization denies the Holy Spirit other weapons.

 

[brosam]

At this point, your hardness of heart against Christ does not make you a likely candidate for conversion. It seems to be a more practical approach to draw your attention to those attitudes and values that are separating you from Jesus.

And that is the problem with Roman Catholic evangelism. You hear me say that I don’t believe and you write me off. You didn’t even try to share the Gospel with me in order to bring about conviction so that my heart might be softened.

It seems that you are looking for some kind of “easy” or “simple” definition of salvation, but this is not the understanding we have from Jesus and the Apostles.

Well, the Bible does describe salvation as being pretty simple.

I will say, yes, if you learn about CAtholicism and follow the teachings of Jesus, the possibility of being saved is much better.

So then, you’re saying that even if I do these works, I only have the possibility of salvation?

That is an issue between you and God. It is clear that your conscience is unformed

OK. Inform it.

1 John 1:10
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

OK. Show me that I’ve sinned.

 

[St_Gabriel]

I like your little story too. It clearly shows what can happen when you don’t put things in their proper location (ie. The hose should have been placed on its hose holder and not left lying on the ground). So again if it’s scripture questions that you have, you should be checking with the apologetics/scripture section.

 

[guanophore]

So then, all I have to do is follow some rules and I’ll be saved. I like my own rules better. I think they’ll save me just fine.

Okay! At this time will you bel leaving the forum? I think you had your mind made up about following your own rules before you got here. I think your problem with the Catholic Church is that she claims to have the Authority of Jesus’ teachings, and you don’t accept that. This is what it means to “protest” as in Protestant.

So please don’t think I’m picking on you. You guys say you’re Christians and I’m taking your word for that. What I’m trying to do, maybe in a bit of a roundabout way, is, one Christian to another, help you to hone your evangelism skills.))

With all due respect, brosam, that is not the purpose of the CAF forum. I encourage you to open your own forum where you can provide training of this kind, according to the personal rules of brosam unto salvation!

 

[brosam]

I want to share it when the Holy Spirit has prepared the heart to hear.

And how does 2 Corinthians 7:5-11 say that the Holy Spirit prepares the heart to hear? By the preaching of the Gospel!

You really don’t see the harm that overly aggressive “evangalists” do, do you?

I’m not talking about being overly aggressive. I’m talking about Biblical evangelism.

I will convert nobody by my own goodness.

Then what is the point of withholding the Gospel from them until they recognize that you’re a good person?

Never.

Then your claim that it is inappropriate is false.

Great example. To preach the Gospel, I have to do something. It isn’t about using Scripture and it isn’t about using words.

Then why does the Bible say that we’re to use scripture and speak words?

Just as every fundamentalists evangelizes Catholics by getting them to leave hte Church?

Actually, we don’t. We share the Gospel with them.

Your arrogance is palpable

This from the person who insists that he has the “full understanding”, while we don’t.

Christ told us they will know us by our Love. Isn’t that evangelization?

No.

Christ told us that the Holy Spirit would come to guide us (including in our evangelization efforts) and to Trust the Holy Spirit more than ourselves. To go off half-cocked w/ a single method of evangelization denies the Holy Spirit other weapons.

So, following the Bible, which was inspired by the Holy Spirit is actually denying the Holy Spirit?

 

[brosam]

So, basically, all of you guys are just going to stand by while I go to Hell?

You’re not even going to try to present the Gospel to me?

Spurgeon said that the man who does not desire to preach salvation to the lost most like does not desire it because he’s never experienced it, himself.

I wonder if that’s what we’re seeing here.

 

[Orionthehunter]

So, basically, all of you guys are just going to stand by while I go to Hell?

You’re not even going to try to present the Gospel to me?

Spurgeon said that the man who does not desire to preach salvation to the lost most like does not desire it because he’s never experienced it, himself.

I wonder if that’s what we’re seeing here.

You have made no effort to understand what we have said. We tried to explain ourselves with Charity and no charity was returned.

You see evangelization as very narrow and in an unBiblical way. Christ evangalized to the Jews using Scripture.

Christ used other methods with people like the woman at the well and the people at the Sermon on the Mount and the people who He showed kindness. You reject this method of evangalization.

I should have known your words are not of God when you first claimed to not be a sinner and blasphemed Christ by calling Him a liar. I should have shaken the dust of this thread from my feet then. You are not open to hearing the Word of God at this time.

I do pray that you will come back to CAF when your heart is more open to Christ. I also pray that people close to you will be instruments of the Holy Spirit for your conversion.

 

[brosam]

You have made no effort to understand what we have said. We tried to explain ourselves with Charity and no charity was returned.

OK. Where was I uncharitable?

You see evangelization as very narrow and in an unBiblical way.

OK. Tell me what other Biblical way there is beside preaching the Gospel.

Christ evangalized to the Jews using Scripture.

Then why have your fellow Roman Catholics told me that they don’t believe we should use scripture?

Christ used other methods with people like the woman at the well

Actually, Jesus used the law with her to bring about repentance, which is precisely what I’m talking about.

and the people at the Sermon on the Mount and the people who He showed kindness. You reject this method of evangalization.

The Sermon on the Mount isn’t evangelization.

I should have known your words are not of God when you first claimed to not be a sinner and blasphemed Christ by calling Him a liar.

Well, first of all, I never called Christ a liar. Second, if you had bothered to read my posts, you would have understood that I was not claiming to not be a sinner, but role playing with mannag, playing the part of an unsaved sinner in order to give him an opportunity to show how he shares the Gospel with the lost.

You are not open to hearing the Word of God at this time.

Sure I am. That’s why I keep asking you where the Bible says these things.

I do pray that you will come back to CAF when your heart is more open to Christ. I also pray that people close to you will be instruments of the Holy Spirit for your conversion.

I see. So then, you’re saying that I’m not a Christian?

 

[St_Gabriel]

Hey I don’t want you to go to hell. Here is what Jesus tells us what will happen at the end of your story.

(Matthew 25:31-46)

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.

32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you (AF)from the foundation of the world.

35’ForI was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;

36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’

37"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?

38’And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?

39’When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’

40"The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;

43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’

44"Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’

45"Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Brosam: OK. Where was I uncharitable?

While you might disagree with the Catholic concept that evangelization is more than quoting Scripture, you haven’t even tried to grasp our concept. That is a lack of charity.

From Brosam: OK. Tell me what other Biblical way there is beside preaching the Gospel.

Read my posts. They are filled with other ways. They were all practiced by Christ, the OT Prophets, the Apostles, and things Christ and the Apostles called us to do. I can’t help it you reject these teachings in Scripture.

From Brosam: Then why have your fellow Roman Catholics told me that they don’t believe we should use scripture?

Nobody on this thread has said that. If there are some that errantly do it, they need better understanding of their call to evangelize. We just accept Christ in Scripture that evangelization requires more than just quoting Scripture.

I do chuckle how you resisted my assertion about “overly aggressive” evangelists are not who yu are talking about. Why then do you want to paint all Catholics with a brush that is contrary to what the Church teaches. You really do have a big log in your eye.

From Brosam: Actually, Jesus used the law with her to bring about repentance, which is precisely what I’m talking about.

But He first prepped her to hear what He had to say. This is what Catholics understand about evangelization. Since we aren’t God, we acknowledge in humility that we can’t accomplish what Christ did in a single meeting.

From Brosam: The Sermon on the Mount isn’t evangelization.

Very narrow idea of evangalization and unBiblical. The Sermon is accepted to be a representation of the 10 Commandments and the two great commandments, all of which have one purpose- lead people to salvation. If that isn’t evangelization, we have a very different definition.

From Brosam: Well, first of all, I never called Christ a liar. Second, if you had bothered to read my posts, you would have understood that I was not claiming to not be a sinner, but role playing with mannag, playing the part of an unsaved sinner in order to give him an opportunity to show how he shares the Gospel with the lost.

You said you are not a sinner. Scripture says that one who makes that claim has called Christ a liar. I guess I’m just trying to apply Scripture to what you claim. Looks pretty clear.

From Brosam: Sure I am. That’s why I keep asking you where the Bible says these things.

No you have a personal agenda to warp the Word to serve your agenda. It isn’t about God talking to you. You are doing the talking.

From Brosam: I see. So then, you’re saying that I’m not a Christian?

hmmm, you don’t like it when applied to yourself but you are willing to do it to Catholics. See your own hypocracy now?

 

[St_Gabriel]

Brosam,

I hope that the story has taught you that evangelization is not just about reading/preaching bible passages, but it is about living the gospel and living it with Christ.