Evangelism question

[brosam]

Hey I don’t want you to go to hell.

You must. A man who tells a lost person “I don’t want you to go to Hell”, but refuses to share the Gospel with him is like a man who tells a drowning person, “I don’t want you to drown” but refuses to throw him a rope.

I was a firefighter for many years. Let’s say that I arrived at your house and your family was trapped inside.

Now, should I just sit in the truck and wait for you to notice what a good firefighter I am and ask me what it is that makes me such a good firefighter?

Would you say “You know, that Lt. looks like he has a lot of peace. I think I’ll go and ask him to save my family”? Of course you wouldn’t! You’d plead with me to go and get your family.

Maybe I should just stand there and explain to you how my firehouse is the only “one true station”, not like those phonies over at Ladder 201.

In the same way that I would be disobedient to my oath as a firefighter, the man who stands by while the lost go to Hell is being disobedient to the one who has commanded him to go and preach the Gospel to them.

Here is what Jesus tells us what will happen at the end of your story.

(Matthew 25:31-46)

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.

32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you (AF)from the foundation of the world.

35’ForI was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;

36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’

37"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?

38’And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?

39’When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’

40"The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;

43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’

44"Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’

45"Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I’ve done all of those things. I helped to found two Gospel missions in the Philadelphia/Camden, NJ area. Does this mean that I’m saved?

 

[St_Gabriel]

What is your definition of sharing the gospel?

 

[brosam]

While you might disagree with the Catholic concept that evangelization is more than quoting Scripture, you haven’t even tried to grasp our concept. That is a lack of charity.

I get your concept completely. The problem is that I’m talking about the Biblical concept.

Read my posts. They are filled with other ways. They were all practiced by Christ, the OT Prophets, the Apostles, and things Christ and the Apostles called us to do. I can’t help it you reject these teachings in Scripture.

I haven’t rejected anything. You haven’t shown me anything else.

Nobody on this thread has said that.

Actually, several people here have said that.

I do chuckle how you resisted my assertion about “overly aggressive” evangelists are not who yu are talking about.

I didn’t resist anything. I just pointed out that I’m talking about something else.

But He first prepped her to hear what He had to say.

Right. He did this by using the law, which is precisely what I’m talking about.

Very narrow idea of evangalization and unBiblical.

I’m sorry you feel that way. Not my fault the Bible says what it does.

The Sermon is accepted to be a representation of the 10 Commandments and the two great commandments, all of which have one purpose- lead people to salvation. If that isn’t evangelization, we have a very different definition.

Actually, the purpose of the law is to bring about repentence that leads to salvation.

If the purpose of the law is to lead people to salvation, then why hasn’t anyone here presented me with the law?

Even when I, playing the unsaved character, claimed to be without sin, you could have easily shown me that I was a sinner by confronting me with the law. But you chose not to.

You said you are not a sinner. Scripture says that one who makes that claim has called Christ a liar. I guess I’m just trying to apply Scripture to what you claim. Looks pretty clear.

But if I’m unsaved, why do you think I’d believe the Bible?

No you have a personal agenda to warp the Word to serve your agenda.

OK. What is my personal agenda?

It isn’t about God talking to you. You are doing the talking.

OK. What have I said that isn’t Biblical?

hmmm, you don’t like it when applied to yourself but you are willing to do it to Catholics. See your own hypocracy now?

When did I said that Roman Catholics aren’t Christians?

 

[St_Gabriel]

I have presented you with the law without quoting scripture. But you choose not to see it. You said you don’t sin. The law is in that “stuff” you referred to earlier.

I even quoted from scripture itself, but you were blind to see the point. Sin blinds us from the Truth.

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Brosam: I get your concept completely. The problem is that I’m talking about the Biblical concept.

The Catholic concept is the Biblical concept. Your concept is a narrow tiny piece of it.

From Brosam: I haven’t rejected anything. You haven’t shown me anything else.

Your reject my examples of other Biblical examples of evangelization. Your rejection of part of the Biblical examples is rejection of the Bible as an authoritative source. You have become your own authority.

From Brosam: Actually, several people here have said that.

Show me one.

From Brosam: I didn’t resist anything. I just pointed out that I’m talking about something else.

From your own authority, you have your own definition of evangelization. Wow, you think your wisdom transcends the Word.

From Brosam: Right. He did this by using the law, which is precisely what I’m talking about.

So we agree that this is a form of evangalization?

From Brosam: I’m sorry you feel that way. Not my fault the Bible says what it does.

This is not about my feeling. It is about your rejection of parts of the Bible.

From Brosam: Actually, the purpose of the law is to bring about repentence that leads to salvation.

If the purpose of the law is to lead people to salvation, then why hasn’t anyone here presented me with the law?

Even when I, playing the unsaved character, claimed to be without sin, you could have easily shown me that I was a sinner by confronting me with the law. But you chose not to.

I didn’t know sometimes we were dealing with the real Brosam and sometimes with a fictional role-playing Brosam. No wonder you are so confusing.

From Brosam: But if I’m unsaved, why do you think I’d believe the Bible? OK. What is my personal agenda? OK. What have I said that isn’t Biblical?

The real Brosam or the role-playing one? And which of yoru posts are from which?

From Brosam: When did I said that Roman Catholics aren’t Christians?

How about when you distinquished us as follows in your first post: “I’m struck by the difference between the Roman Catholic idea of evangelism and the Christian teaching of evangelism.”

 

[brosam]

What is your definition of sharing the gospel?

The Bible says that we’re to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to the lost.

We do this by explaining that because man is sinful, he has broken God’s laws and made himself an enemy of God.

Each of us, because of our sin, face God’s wrath on judgement day.

God is a Holy and Righteous and Just God and He’s going to judge us and punish us for our sins on judgement day.

However, in addition to being Holy and Righteous and Just, He’s also loving and very merciful. Because of this, He has provided a way for us to be forgiven, reconciled to Him, and even to become His children.

This happened 2,000 years ago when He gave His only Son as a ransom to pay the penalty for our sins because we cannot.

The Bible tells us that if repent, which means to turn from our sin, and place our faith in Christ, we’ll be saved.

 

[brosam]

Your reject my examples of other Biblical examples of evangelization. Your rejection of part of the Biblical examples is rejection of the Bible as an authoritative source.

Actually, the only Biblical example you gave was the woman at the well. I agreed with you.

From your own authority, you have your own definition of evangelization. Wow, you think your wisdom transcends the Word.

No, Christians have based evangelism on God’s word for 2,000 years.

So we agree that this is a form of evangalization?

Yes. Using the law to bring about repentence is a crucial part of evangelism.

This is not about my feeling. It is about your rejection of parts of the Bible.

I affirm all of the Bible, from Genesis right to the end.

I didn’t know sometimes we were dealing with the real Brosam and sometimes with a fictional role-playing Brosam. No wonder you are so confusing.

Funny, the two posters I was having the conversation with knew exactly what I was doing.

How about when you distinquished us as follows in your first post: “I’m struck by the difference between the Roman Catholic idea of evangelism and the Christian teaching of evangelism.”

Actually, I hear Roman Catholics make this distinction all the time. While we may consider you Christians, it is still very common to refer to Roman Catholics as “Roman Catholics” and other Christians as simply “Christians”.

 

[MannaG]

The Bible says that we’re to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to the lost.

We do this by explaining that because man is sinful, he has broken God’s laws and made himself an enemy of God.

Each of us, because of our sin, face God’s wrath on judgement day.

God is a Holy and Righteous and Just God and He’s going to judge us and punish us for our sins on judgement day.

However, in addition to being Holy and Righteous and Just, He’s also loving and very merciful. Because of this, He has provided a way for us to be forgiven, reconciled to Him, and even to become His children.

This happened 2,000 years ago when He gave His only Son as a ransom to pay the penalty for our sins because we cannot.

The Bible tells us that if repent, which means to turn from our sin, and place our faith in Christ, we’ll be saved.

Brosam, earlier you asked what I would have done to evangelize before I converted. Your post quoted above is nearly identical to what I would have told someone, or what the little tract I handed them would have said. The only problem is… that version of the story is way too oversimplified. It leaves too much for an “unsaved” person to figure out on their own. That’s why we need the fullness of Truth found only in the Catholic Church. That oversimplification is why I left the Baptist church… it just wasn’t enough to make sense.

In regards to your story where we both died… I did not ever say that I would not tell someone the Truth of Christ. I simply said that you have to use both words and actions. As you so clearly demonstrated, some people need to be approached because they will never approach us no matter what we do. And as I attempted to point out… just talking without living the life to back it up will serve more to push someone further from the Truth rather than draw them to it.

 

[St_Gabriel]

The Bible tells us that if repent, which means to turn from our sin, and place our faith in Christ, we’ll be saved.

You need to study this some more. I don’t think that you have a full understanding yet. There’s way more to it than that! For example, where does Baptism fit into the picture?

 

[deanarrca]

When did I said that Roman Catholics aren’t Christians?

Ok this is from another thread called The way of the Master that is now closed. From Bosam

I liken Roman Catholicism to Mormonism in that there may very well be people there who are Christians, but if they are, they’re Christians in spite of Roman Catholic teaching and not because of it.

I came in too late to this thread to see if there are any accusations made on this thread. But I will reread through this thread from the beginning in a little bit.

What I take from the above statement by Bosam is that he believes there may be some true Christians in the Catholic Church, but they must be ignorant and as soon as they read the Bible and see the error of their ways they will surely leave the Catholic Church for a true Bible church and he is here to show us the error of our ways"

PS: I did paste my response to Bosam from another thread. I was too lazy to rewrite it here.

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Brosam: Actually, the only Biblical example you gave was the woman at the well. I agreed with you.

I said that evangelization included:

Being an example of Christ and letting His light shine from me, praying for guidance from the Holy Spirit, praying to God about the person, telling them how God wants us to live (ala the Sermon on the Mount) and others. These are all Teachings of Christ about spreading the Good News.

From Brosam: No, Christians have based evangelism on God’s word for 2,000 years.

Do you mean after the Canon of the Bible was selected 1,700 years ago? Or do you accept when the writings were read at Mass during the early Church? In either case, you are incorrect. Christ is eternal and the Word was always with us. Christian Evangelization began the moment we were cast out of the Garden.

From Brosam: Yes. Using the law to bring about repentence is a crucial part of evangelism.

And so are my examples I’ve used throughout this thread and summarized above.

From Brosam: I affirm all of the Bible, from Genesis right to the end.

Well, your words in this thread say otherwise. I am not God and can’t see into your heart. I can only react to what you have written.

From Brosam: Funny, the two posters I was having the conversation with knew exactly what I was doing.

Well, I didn’t so I assume your apology for criticizing me for my failure to evangelize you in this thread is forthcoming.

From Brosam: Actually, I hear Roman Catholics make this distinction all the time. While we may consider you Christians, it is still very common to refer to Roman Catholics as “Roman Catholics” and other Christians as simply “Christians”.

Catholics refer to our separated breathren as “Protestants”, “Non-Catholic Christians” or “seperated breathren in Christ”. In my entire life, I can’t recall a single Catholic referring to non-Catholic Christians as only “Christian.” In Catholic vernacular, we use the term to encompass all Christians or sometimes in formal discussions as all those baptized “in the name fo the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.”

 

[St_Gabriel]

I really think that the Apologetics -Sacred Scripture forum is the best place for you to learn more about the bible. I’ve thrown you three ropes to get you out of the fire, but you don’t want to take it. I’ve offered you the catechism to give you understanding, but you don’t want to take it. I’ve even quoted scripture, but you don’t want to listen. You are the little child who forgot to put away daddy’s hose. Becareful, you might hurt someone.

You are in my prayers!

 

[St_Gabriel]

One last thing,
(1 Peter 3)

18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

22)who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

 

[deanarrca]

The Gospel hopefully in terms that you can relate to
Please guys forgive me if this isn’t a perfect or is a flawed presentation. I am trying to be quick-have to be somewhere.

Very 1st Step- Be called by God’s Grace
1st step Learn- Long Process- Catholics call it RCIA
Where you learn from the Bible, about Gods plan for man sarting in Genesis through the New Testament. You Know Man’s Fall ect. Learn about God’s plan for our redemption and reconcilliation. Learn about How Christ (God incarnate) was born of the virgin Mary. What Christ’s purpose was. Why he had to die for the forgiveness of our sins. Basically learn all about Christ and learn his teachings -
(PS Don’t have time now to give all Scripture references
2. Believe
3 Accept
4.Repent
4. Be baptised/born again according to the Bible (baptism for infants can precede all steps but that is a different discussion, but for purposes of simplicity this refers to the process of adult conversion adult conversion)
5. Confirmation for the empowering of the Holy Spirit
6. The recieving of the eucharist for grace to help walk the christian walk.
5. Exercise faith in good works you know Jesus the Beatitudes
6. Confession to repent and recieve, forgivenes for sins committed after baptism.
7. Work out your salvation in fear and trembling
Run the good race and percevere (SP?) to the end.

Not a quicky cheap grace that is settled in a one time experience but a life long process of becoming more Christlike each and everyday.

 

[brosam]

The only problem is… that version of the story is way too oversimplified. It leaves too much for an “unsaved” person to figure out on their own.

If that’s all you tell them, then you’re absolutely right. But the question I was responding to isn’t “how would you share the Gospel”, but what is the Gospel.

That’s why we need the fullness of Truth found only in the Catholic Church. That oversimplification is why I left the Baptist church… it just wasn’t enough to make sense.

OK. What is the Roman Catholic church going to tell me that I did not include?

In regards to your story where we both died… I did not ever say that I would not tell someone the Truth of Christ. I simply said that you have to use both words and actions.

You had several opportunities and you didn’t do it. It was all about convincing me that you’re a faithful Roman Catholic so that I would eventually get around to asking you about Roman Catholicism.

some people need to be approached because they will never approach us no matter what we do.

And if you approach them, what do you say?

And as I attempted to point out… just talking without living the life to back it up will serve more to push someone further from the Truth rather than draw them to it.

The Gospel is the good news that Christ died so that we can be saved. It has nothing to do with convincing the world that we’re good people. That’s not the Gospel, that’s self-righteousness.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we’re to convince someone that we’re a good person before we present the Gospel to them.

 

[brosam]

I really think that the Apologetics -Sacred Scripture forum is the best place for you to learn more about the bible.

What am I going to learn that there I haven’t learned in twenty years of study or three years of seminary?

I’ve offered you the catechism to give you understanding, but you don’t want to take it.

And I keep trying to explain to you that we base our doctrines on God’s word, not your traditions.

You are the little child who forgot to put away daddy’s hose.

Ah, name calling. Is that how you convince the unsaved that you’re a good person?

 

[St_Gabriel]

The Gospel is the good news that Christ died so that we can be saved. QUOTE]

Alas we are on the same page! Read what St Gabriel says to the most Blessed Virgin Mary at the annunciation in the book of Luke. There you will find the Gospel that we have shared.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we’re to convince someone that we’re a good person before we present the Gospel to them.

First, we never said we were to “convince” them. We are to live a Christian life so they can see Christ in us. We don’t do the convincing. The Holy Spirit helps them convince themselves.

But that doesn’t change the importance of them first believing we walk the walk before we talk the talk. This is what we have been trying to beat into your skull.

Before Christ told the woman at the well the Good News, He convinced her He was a prophet.

Or the story of the young rich man who first saw Christ as a good teacher when he asked Christ what it takes to gain Salvation.

Or the OT Prophets who first gained credibility by the quality of their life before their words were taken seriously.

Any elementary Bible student knows this. I think you need a refund from your so-called seminary if you didn’t know this.

 

[St_Gabriel]

Ah, name calling. Is that how you convince the unsaved that you’re a good person?

I appologize if you thought that was name-calling. It wasn’t. It was a reference to your earlier post about the guy who tripped over the hose placed by his kid.

There’s nothing wrong with children anyway,

Mark (10:13)
“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

Just one more reason why you are in error.

 

[brosam]

I appologize if you thought that was name-calling.

LOL…Are you Bill Clinton posting under an assumed name, by any chance?

That isn’t an apology. An apology is, “I did something wrong and I’m sorry for doing it”, not “yeah, I did it but it’s really your problem for being offended”.

Just one more reason why you are in error.

Evidently, I was in error when I assumed that you were one of the few Roman Catholics here who could get through a thread without the personal attacks.