Evangelism question

[brockmac]

How do Catholic’s evangelize? That is a good question, although I am not sure that your intentions are entirely benevolent.

You suggest that we are more interested in recruiting people to the Roman Catholic Church than sharing the gospel. The fact is, that if we share the whole gospel with them, that necessitates that we share with people the sacraments that Christ instituted. Those sacraments are properly administered through the Catholic Church.

No well cathecized Catholic believes that they are saved by being good or trying to be good. We are saved through the Body and Blood of our Lord, offered once for all at Calvary, and re-presented at every Mass. Our sins are forgiven by God’s grace through the sacraments of baptism, reconciliation, and annointing of the sick. We cannot save ourselves, and no Catholic who knows what the Church teaches will tell you otherwise. However, we certainly can condemn ourselves by failing to accept Christ and his teachings which come to us through His Church.

St. Francis of Assisi instructed his friars to preach the gospel always and if necessary, use words. I try in my daily life to live the gospel and love my neighbor and my enemy. I do not always succeed. I am not perfect and am grateful for God’s mercy in the sacraments. In this forum, though words are necessary. You challenge our faith and then act indignant when we defend the Church. If you wish to have an honest and sincere dialogue, you are welcome here and I will be happy to dialogue. However, if your intention is to bash the Church or draw people from the Church, that is not what I understand these forums to be for.

Pax et Bonem

 

[brosam]

You suggest that we are more interested in recruiting people to the Roman Catholic Church than sharing the gospel.

And any examination of the evangelization (sic) forums will show that there are no threads about evangelism, but they’re all about getting people in to the Roman Catholic church.

The fact is, that if we share the whole gospel with them, that necessitates that we share with people the sacraments that Christ instituted. Those sacraments are properly administered through the Catholic Church.

And where does the Bible tell us that these rituals are a part of the Gospel?

St. Francis of Assisi instructed his friars to preach the gospel always and if necessary, use words.

That’s like saying, “Feed starving children always and, if necessary, use food”.

In the Bible, every example of preaching the Gospel involves proclaiming the Gospel and proclaiming requires words.

I try in my daily life to live the gospel

And what do you do to “live the Gospel” that I can extrapolate thet I am a sinner in need of a savior? How am I, by you
“living the Gospel”, supposed to come to the conclusion that I have to repent and put my faith in Christ to be saved?

You challenge our faith and then act indignant when we defend the Church.

Not at all. I act indignant when you attack me, personally.

 

[brockmac]

You said :“And where does the Bible tell us that these rituals are a part of the Gospel?”

John 3:5: …no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit. (Baptism)

John 6:53 …unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don not have life in you. (Eucharist)

John 20:23 Whose sins you forgive shall be forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained. (Reconciliation-Confession)

and not technically the Gospel, but from the New Testament:

Acts 8:17 Then they [Peter and John] laid hands on them and they recieved the holy Spirit. (Confirmation)

James 5:14-15 Is any among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. (Annointing of the Sick)

These are by no means the only supporting texts for the sacraments, but they are a start.

People can and do preach the gospel by living it all the time. St. Francis did it, Mother Teresa did it, John Paul II did it. My parents taught me the faith, but if it was revealed only in their words and not in their lives, it would not have lost credibility. Our actions do speak louder than our words, yet I will agree with you, words are often necessary, as is the case in this forum.

Living our faith opens the door to evangelization. If we live authentically Christian lives, people will see our joy and our integrity and we will be able to credibly share the Gospel with them.

Pax et Bonem

 

[Hellisreal]

We are all given different gifts from the Holy Spirit, and I really think some people should not evangelize.

I am sure this will make some people upset, and thats not my intention.

I wish people knew there is NO FORMULA for the “perfect” evangelization method, and no man ought to condemn another for how they choose to share the good news in Christ

Christ has died
Christ has risen
Christ will come again

So lets stop the spiritual pride and get over arguing about how someone is not evangelizing well enough, or their method is the best.

None of us is a St. Paul here. Move on, get some humility and enjoy life, and people will see it, and want to know why.

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

So then, all I have to do is follow some rules and I’ll be saved. I like my own rules better. I think they’ll save me just fine.

Are you calling me a sinner? That’s awfully judgemental!

Restored to what? I’m a good person now.

I don’t sin.

((mannag, I want to make something clear to you. I’m not picking on you or just playing games with your answers for sport. Remember, in this premise, I’m role playing the part of the unsaved lost sinner.

When I was a new Christian, although I wasn’t Roman Catholic, my ideas of evangelism were very similar to yours before I learned to share the Gospel and each of the responses I’m giving you are based on real life responses I got when I did what you’re doing now.

So please don’t think I’m picking on you. You guys say you’re Christians and I’m taking your word for that. What I’m trying to do, maybe in a bit of a roundabout way, is, one Christian to another, help you to hone your evangelism skills.))

Are you a church plant ??? You say you don’t sin…then you are God i.e Jesus !?! If you have a problem with repentance through the sacrament of confession you will be pleased to know that it is very, very biblical i still haven’t figured why the protestants did away with this one ?!].

 

[St_Gabriel]

LOL…Are you Bill Clinton posting under an assumed name, by any chance?

That isn’t an apology. An apology is, “I did something wrong and I’m sorry for doing it”, not “yeah, I did it but it’s really your problem for being offended”.

Evidently, I was in error when I assumed that you were one of the few Roman Catholics here who could get through a thread without the personal attacks.

Well, my friend, I guess I shouldn’t have apologized, since you were in error.
Bill Clinton? Now that is definately name-calling!!!

That’s it for me on this thread. I gotta go feed the hungry!

 

[brosam]

Are you a church plant ??? You say you don’t sin…then you are God i.e Jesus !?!

Sigh…I knew this was going to happen.

Please go back and read the post from the beginning. I didn’t say that I, brosam, don’t sin. I was role playing with another poster to give him an opportunity to show how he shares the Gospel with the lost.

If you have a problem with repentance through the sacrament of confession you will be pleased to know that it is very, very biblical

OK. Feel free to show where it’s found in the Bible.

 

[guanophore]

And that is the problem with Roman Catholic evangelism. You hear me say that I don’t believe and you write me off. You didn’t even try to share the Gospel with me in order to bring about conviction so that my heart might be softened.

On the contrary, brosam, I have not written you off. I just posted a fervent prayer for you on another thread. I am still going to try to reach out to you, even though you have continually insulted me and my faith. This morning, I see that you are quoting me without permission. Not only does your post misrepresent me personally, I believe you have done this on purpose to aggravate other posters on this board. I find this behavior painful and despicable. However, I believe you are a hurting and seeking soul, so I will not write you off. It is not my job to bring about conviction, but that of the HS. I do hope and pray this will happen by something that I say and do, so that I may participate in the saving mission of Jesus. However, I also know that I am powerless to soften even the hardest heart. I entrust your soul to a faithful creator.

Well, the Bible does describe salvation as being pretty simple.

We see it differently, brosam. Catholics believe that it is a straight and narrow way, and we know that the seed of salvation must fall in good soil, and continue to grow, or it is of little lasting value. We don’t consider salvation something that happens at one point in time.

So then, you’re saying that even if I do these works, I only have the possibility of salvation?

I am saying that Jesus gave us all we need to know in order to be saved. However, we do not presumed to be saved, but recognize that it is God who decides.

OK. Inform it.

I am sure that if you stay here at CAF (that is if you are not banned for your hostility toward our faith and breaking the forum rules) that you will begin to be informed. In fact, I think you are already. However, I would recommend that you join an RCIA in your home community better.

OK. Show me that I’ve sinned.

I think I covered that one in my first paragraph.

 

[brosam]

On the contrary, brosam, I have not written you off.

Sure you did. You said I wasn’t ready and you walked away without even trying to bring the law.

I just posted a fervent prayer for you on another thread.

Who did you pray to?

I am still going to try to reach out to you, even though you have continually insulted me and my faith.

You know, just about every Roman Catholic here has claimed that I’ve insulted them and their faith.

But you know what you all have in common? Not one of you has been able to give any examples of me insulting you or insulting your faith.

This morning, I see that you are quoting me without permission.

You’ve been quoting me without permission in several threads now.

Not only does your post misrepresent me personally, I believe you have done this on purpose to aggravate other posters on this board.

How does it “misrepresent” you? You did say it, didn’t you? I can point you to the thread where you said it, if you like.

And, no, I’m not posting it to aggravate anyone. I just think it’s a funny quote when a Roman Catholic admits that the people who claim to be the arbiters of all doctrinal truth don’t know basic hermeneutic principles.

I find this behavior painful and despicable. However, I believe you are a hurting and seeking soul, so I will not write you off.

No, I’m not hurting (although, in all fairness my back is starting to tighten up a little) and I’m not seeking. I’m perfectly happy in Christ’s one true church.

It is not my job to bring about conviction, but that of the HS.

And I’ve already shown you from the scriptures that the Holy Spirit brings about conviction when the word of God is preached.

I do hope and pray this will happen by something that I say and do, so that I may participate in the saving mission of Jesus.

From what I can tell, it doesn’t look like you want to. I mean, if you can’t even tell me how to present the Gospel here, how on Earth do you plan to do it in the real world?

We see it differently, brosam. Catholics believe that it is a straight and narrow way, and we know that the seed of salvation must fall in good soil, and continue to grow, or it is of little lasting value. We don’t consider salvation something that happens at one point in time.

Yes, I know you disagree with the Bible. You’ve said that already.

I am saying that Jesus gave us all we need to know in order to be saved. However, we do not presumed to be saved, but recognize that it is God who decides.

If the Bible tells you that you’re saved, then it’s not presumption, unless you don’t believe the Bible.

However, I would recommend that you join an RCIA in your home community better.

First of all, I don’t have time. I’m too busy in the ministry of my own church and actually going out and sharing the Gospel with the lost like Jesus commanded me to. (oy gevalt!)

Second, I already know the Bible and I already know Christian doctrine. What am I going to get out of one of your classes?

Beside, do you really think they’d let me stay there when I keep speaking up to point out their heresy?

I think I covered that one in my first paragraph.

I sure hope you do a better job than that when you’re witnessing.

 

[St_Gabriel]

You know, just about every Roman Catholic here has claimed that I’ve insulted them and their faith.

But you know what you all have in common? Not one of you has been able to give any examples of me insulting you or insulting your faith.
/QUOTE]

Hi Brosam,

Read my last post. You will see that you did infact insult me!
Have you finished your experiment?

 

[brosam]

brosam;2751966:

You know, just about every Roman Catholic here has claimed that I’ve insulted them and their faith.

But you know what you all have in common? Not one of you has been able to give any examples of me insulting you or insulting your faith.
/QUOTE]

Hi Brosam,

Read my last post. You will see that you did infact insult me!
Have you finished your experiment?

Pointing out that you don’t know how to apologize for your obnoxious behavior isn’t an insult. It’s just an observation.

 

[St_Gabriel]

St Gabriel;2752079:

Pointing out that you don’t know how to apologize for your obnoxious behavior isn’t an insult. It’s just an observation.

Calling me Bill Clinton is.

 

[Janet_S]

The world was Christianized by Catholics, so I think they know a thing or two about evangelization.

The printing press was not invented until the year AD 1450, yet Catholics preached the Gospel for all these years without the easy availability of books and tracts. And, of course, we know even if there had been the advantage of the printing press in those years, it wouldn’t have mattered since widespread literacy is a recent phenonemon.

Catholic missionaries spread the Gospel to distant lands without being fluent in the local language and with limited written material. How did they do it? St Francis Xavier was a Spanish Jesuit who preached the Gospel in India, China, and Japan. He used the Apostles’ Creed and prayers to instruct people in the faith. You can read one of his letters here:
fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1543xavier1.html

Every Sunday I collected them all, men and women, boys and girls, in the church. They came with great readiness and with a great desire for instruction. Then, in the hearing of all, I began by calling on the name of the most holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and I recited aloud the Lord’s Prayer, the Hail Mary, and the Creed in the same words, and delighted in it wonderfully. Then I repeated the Creed by myself, dwelling upon each article singly. Then I asked them as to each article, whether they believed it unhesitatingly; and all, with a loud voice and their hands crossed over their breasts, professed aloud that they truly believed it. I take care to make them repeat the Creed oftener than the other prayers; and I tell them that those who believe all that is contained therein are called Christians. After explaining the Creed I go on to the Commandments, teaching them that the Christian law is contained in those ten precepts, and that every one who observes them all faithfully is a good and true Christian and is certain of eternal salvation, and that, on the other hand, whoever neglects a single one of them is a bad Christian, and will be cast into hell unless he is truly penitent for his sin. Converts and heathen alike are astonished at all this, which shows them the holiness of the Christian law, its perfect consistency with itself, and its agreement with reason.

If your (Brosam’s) idea of evangelism is to tell people Jesus died for you, have them recite the sinner’s prayer, and tell them that from now on they are “saved,” sorry, Catholics don’t do this and never will because this isn’t what Jesus and the Apostles taught. What about the beatitudes? What about the sermon on the mount? Being “saved” is not a one-shot deal–it’s a process.

Historically, Christianity was always handed on through the idea of discipleship, and the Church teaches and disciples us.

Even though your tradition teaches you otherwise, Catholics cannot separate the Church from Jesus. They are one and the same.

 

[St_Gabriel]

Brosam, I like you even though you think I’m obnoxious. In real life, I have met someone who was a Baptist preacher and we shared the gospel. He was also in a Baptist seminary for 2 years, but then he left.

From what I have read in your posts, you don’t understand what Tradition really is and thereby don’t trust it and I also think that it is difficult for us to dialogue with you because you pose so many good questions but jump in and out of role playing.

Let’s stay on track for a moment. Have you ever heard of Marcus Grodi? He was also a preacher just like you for many years. He has his own TV show on EWTN where he interviews people just like you, that have asked the exact same questions (all of them former protestant preachers). Would you be interested in what he has to say?

 

[Orionthehunter]

Brosam, we answered in good faith how Catholics have a broader understanding of evangalization. You have a narrow understanding. We don’t discount or disagree with that we need to preach the Gospel with words. You think that our other examples are not evangelization but I don’t think you think they are harmful or bad (living life as a Christian, praying for guidance and for non-believers, etc.)

How about we just agree to disagree on what is included in evangelization and not act prideful relative to other Christians?

 

[brosam]

Let’s stay on track for a moment. Have you ever heard of Marcus Grodi? He was also a preacher just like you for many years. He has his own TV show on EWTN where he interviews people just like you, that have asked the exact same questions (all of them former protestant preachers). Would you be interested in what he has to say?

Depends. Is it based on the Bible or is it just more of the usual Roman Catholic propaganda we hear on EWTN?

 

[St_Gabriel]

The Catechism quotes the Bible in many places. Here is the link to the index which might help you.

scborromeo.org/ccc/index/a.htm

I assure you that there is no propaganda in it. But guarantee there may be some things in it that you will not understand unless the Holy Spirit guides you.

 

[brosam]

The world was Christianized by Catholics, so I think they know a thing or two about evangelization.

Really? Prove it. Pretend that I’m an unsaved person and tell me how to be saved.

The printing press was not invented until the year AD 1450, yet Catholics preached the Gospel for all these years without the easy availability of books and tracts.

Given what Roman Catholicism did to the men who tried to put the Bible into the hands of the people, are you absolutely sure you want to go down this road?

If your (Brosam’s) idea of evangelism is to tell people Jesus died for you, have them recite the sinner’s prayer, and tell them that from now on they are “saved,” sorry

Actually, this is patently dishonest on your part. I have explained to you all many, many times now why we do not believe in the “sinners’ prayer”.

What about the beatitudes? What about the sermon on the mount?

What about them? How am I supposed to extrapolate the Gospel from the Beatitudes?

Being “saved” is not a one-shot deal–it’s a process.

According to you. The Bible, on the other hand, always speaks of salvation in the present tense (ie. “the salvation you have received”).

Historically, Christianity was always handed on through the idea of discipleship, and the Church teaches and disciples us.

And we disciple Christians, too.

Even though your tradition teaches you otherwise, Catholics cannot separate the Church from Jesus. They are one and the same.

The church is Jesus? Boy, that must have been one big cross.

 

[ThereseMarie]

brosam said: The church is Jesus? Boy, that must have been one big cross.

**I finally figured out why I have been offended since day 1 of reading your posts. It is the sarcasm which I am having a hard time with. I came here to join with other Catholics and share the joy which I have discovered in returning to “Rome”, and instead there is this biting sarcasm on some threads where you post. The sarcasm makes me feel like being uncharitable.

Hail Mary, full of grace… **

 

[Orionthehunter]

From Brosam: Really? Prove it. Pretend that I’m an unsaved person and tell me how to be saved.

Because for the first 1,000 years the only Christians were also Catholic. For the next 500 years, they were either Catholic or our schismatic breathren Orthodox. This is a fact. It proves that we know and evangelize. Oh, are we back to talking to the alter-brosam where we aren’t supposed to educate but evangelize? So confusing.

From Brosam: Given what Roman Catholicism did to the men who tried to put the Bible into the hands of the people, are you absolutely sure you want to go down this road?

Another topic for another thread. But, are you sure you want to go down it?

From Brosam: What about them? How am I supposed to extrapolate the Gospel from the Beatitudes?

They are in the Gospel. Or, maybe there is another definition of Gospel that you want me to use. It is so confusing.

From Brosam: According to you. The Bible, on the other hand, always speaks of salvation in the present tense (ie. “the salvation you have received”).

Why do you claim omniscient capacity to interpret what the Bible says? We have our interpretation and you have yours. We disagree.

From Brosam: And we disciple Christians, too.

It appears that your distinction of Catholics not being Christian is raising its head again. Do you believe we are not Christians and our faith is not a Christian faith?

From Brosam: The church is Jesus? Boy, that must have been one big cross.

Besides the snide sarcasm, yes it was one big cross. It was so big that all our sins were placed on it.