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inJESUS
Guest
yes and my point stands correct…when killing is caused by sin to us, it is rewarded according to Allah who himself says that fighting is a prescription…
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pro_universal
Guest
Well, I would say that’s an unfair characterization. Fighting is good if it is in self-defense or defense of the innocent for Muslims. I see nothing morally objectionable there. That is the equivalent of being caused by sin, since you cannot fight in self-defense if someone is not illegitimately attacking you. The sin of the people who attack isn’t rewarded; rather, the courage of people who fight against attackers is.
I don’t see much difference, as I’m convinced that Christian teaching permits self-defense and defense of the innocent (perhaps even moreso than self defense.)
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inJESUS
Guest
you still don’t get this slight difference…nevermind.
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inJESUS
Guest
"Fighting is prescribed for you,
this is from quran…how is something caused by sin prescribed by God? so according to islam, war is NOT caused by sin otherwise allah wouldnt have “prescribed” it…and you already know Jesus’ teachings on this
this is from quran…how is something caused by sin prescribed by God? so according to islam, war is NOT caused by sin otherwise allah wouldnt have “prescribed” it…and you already know Jesus’ teachings on this
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Shadowcry
Guest
InJesus maybe you are interpreting the verse wrong 
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pro_universal
Guest
I think you are misunderstanding my posts.
Muslims believe that fighting is prescribed and in fact a good thing if that fighting is in response to an attack. Hence, I said that self-defense is praisworthy and even an obligation in Islam. The Koran prescribes fighting…in self defense.
In all cases of fighting, if it is in fact self-defense, the cause is presumed to be sinful one, as otherwise you would have no right of self defense. Someone given a lawful death sentence after being convicted of a crime does not have any self-defense claim; someone who is attacked because a stranger wants to take his money or his land does. I see no divergence between the Islamic and Christian views on this point, but I do see a difference in how the response to sin of using forceful self defense is treated.
In contrast to the muslim broad approval of self-defense, I would say the Christian approach is that even though it is permissible, the death of an attacker and the act of killing him is a morally bad situation.
That is the difference, and while I am a Christian, the Islamic view that celebrates self defense is not irrational, nor is it entirely a bad thing. That’s why I cited the examples of how muslims have been more willing to fight to defend fellow muslims, on the whole, than christians have. (Of course it creates its own problems, but so does our approach.)
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
pro_universal,
I know Muslims always claim the Meccans breached the treaty of Hudaybiyya. But I’d like to know how exactly did they ‘breach’ this treaty?
Chau,
Rodrigo
As for your just war explanation - read 9:29 again. Oh, don’t tell me to re-read 9:28 - I have read and quoted it many times.
I know Muslims always claim the Meccans breached the treaty of Hudaybiyya. But I’d like to know how exactly did they ‘breach’ this treaty?
Chau,
Rodrigo
As for your just war explanation - read 9:29 again. Oh, don’t tell me to re-read 9:28 - I have read and quoted it many times.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Like I said – how exactly did the Meccans ‘breach’ the treaty of Hudaybiyya.Rodrigo:
It’s not an apologetics site. It is a site for muslims to go to and learn about their own religion. So read it. All of that typing you did was a waste, because that’s your personal read of the Koran and Hadiths. That is not how muslims interpret the text. You can repeat your own idea until you’re blue in the face, but it will give you absolutely no information about what muslims believe. To know that, you have to read what they have to say.
Your site is definitely an apologetic site.
Okay, show me that rule book that says I have to explain what tu quoque means every time I use the term.Rodrigo:
That’s not tu quoque, no, and you got my argument wrong. Since you didn’t elaborate how that would be tu quoque, you still failed to see that. If you try to explain what is a tu quoque and then fit that into your explanation, you’ll see how this is so.
You made that up, didn’t you? Read my explanation in a later post.
You can leave out the spread of Christianity if you want – through I seriously question your knowledge of history. Christianity wasn’t spread by the sword in its early days. I remember something about Roman forums and Christians being fed to lions. Or didn’t your ustaadh teach you that in the madrassa?
Also I disagree with your argument for the simple reason because we’re not only talking about one aspect of Islam – that is it’s spread. There is other matter of Muhammad’s sublime morality. You’re basically extrapolating the ‘spread by the sword’ issue to other aspects of Islam – which is the logical fallacy of generalization.
Re-read. We’re talking about your NAZI comparison which I find rather odious. We were comparing the behavior of Muslims today with the behavior of Jews in the 1930s.
I didn’t know Christians in the 1990s (I suppose you mean the Serbs and Croats) are the same as the Jews of the 1930s. Isn’t that a tu quoque argument? I suppose you still don’t understand what a tu quoque means.
Hasta luego,
Cid
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Athanasius18
Guest
i just cant my mind around this pro. clearly your either muslim or simply an anti-catholic catholic. when someone asks me what i should make of muhammed, i should say…what…he was a nice guy that maybe had a couple things wrong? no, i need to speak the truth. of course when engaging a muslim, i would not begin with that. i would start by telling him about how Jesus is Lord and saved men from their sins by His Cross. I would tell them about His message and the proof of His resurrection. I would tell them how Christ claimed to be the ONLY way to the Father, and we must repent and accept His loving invitation to salvation. I would tell them how Christ founded a Church, a Church that would teach pure doctrine and that the gates of Hell would never overcome her. i cannot make that anything less, that is the faith of Jesus Christ. if that offends a muslim, then sorry. its the truth regardless of whether people like to hear it or not. if they ask me what i think of muhammed, i would lovingly tell them the Truth, not shove it arroagently in their face. but i cannot deny my Savior for the sake of not offending people. i want every man, women and child on earth to come to faith in Christ (as He does). its that simple. what about this dont you get?
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Shadowcry
Guest
Its ironic how you say this as they are defending Islam and you label them an anti catholic,despite you defending Catholicism.
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pro_universal
Guest
No, it’s not. It is a site that Muslims go to in order to learn about Islam. An apologetics site is aimed at other faiths to explain. This is not one of those.
You’re dodging the issue here perhaps because you’ve already tried and seen what the problem is. If you’re not going to explain your points, I’ll feel free to not respond to them.
Right, when Christianity was tiny and had no major world political influence. Christianity grew into what it is today hand in hand with the military expansion of Christian emperors. This is an undeniable historical fact, and this is why I say that if you’re going to condemn conversion by the sword, be prepared to condemn Christianity. Since I don’t want to do that, and neither do I want to be a hypocrite, I don’t use other religions’ having spread by the sword at some point in history in order to bash them.
No we weren’t. We were comparing the structure of your tirades against Islam with the structure of Nazi tirades against Jews. You write in the same style, using the same accusations, that the Nazis used. That’s the point, not anything about Jews themselves or Muslims themselves.
I do know what it means, and I’ll respond again to the claim when you elaborate what you think it is, because as I see it, there is no tu quoque involved.
As for the Serbs, you wanted an example of Christians being evil in recent history to compare with the cartoon riots. I gave you one. Now, does the fact that these people clearly embraced orthodox religion in justifying their crimes make Christianity bad?
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pro_universal
Guest
Here’s an idea: Instead of being obsessed with having other people say “Jesus is God!” three times in the mirror every morning, you can look at what Jesus wanted us to do rather than just say in response to his mission:
How about “I respect your religion, even though I do not believe it’s true, but that’s not important right now. What’s important to me is that you and I work together to help feed these starving kids in our country. That’s what Jesus wants from me, and that’s what your religion wants from you, so let’s get started. Deal?”
How’s that for a response?
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JimG
Guest
Yet I seem to hear a lot lately about muslims killing fellow muslims. Are Shia so different from Sunni that they also deserve death?
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pro_universal
Guest
No one deserves to die for his beliefs.
The conflict I think is fueled by radicals like bin Laden…Sunni/Shia strife only benefits them, because it weakens governments and allows them to get their parties’ into power.
Warfare is about power, not religion. I think that’s a safe statement of the rule, and it’s no less true for us than it is for others.
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Athanasius18
Guest
pro, i dont know why you dont get this. you may not be Christian, but as a Catholic Christian, just “getting along” and being nice like Jesus was isnt enough. You have to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. I have no idea why that is so hard to get. Being nice and working together does not “earn” you salvation. Jesus was not just some nice guy who taught some nice stuff. He is the Savior that died on the Cross for man’s sin. Its like cancer. Every human is infected with cancer, and someone found a cure. Why would you not want everyone to take that medicine to be cured? Its the same as with the Gospel. I know you think that belief doesnt matter, and I doubt ill convince you otherwise. But you must at least let Christians believe what their Savior said and do as He told them. You claim we should ACT like Jesus, ok we are. “Go make disciples of ALL nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through me.” We are all sinners, thats why we need Christ pro. He is our hope, our life and our salvation. good works dont get anyone to heaven, if they did, Jesus would never have had to die on the Cross. people have tried to be nice since the dawn of time. but it took the Cross, shed in the blood of Christ to open the gates of heaven.
Please tell me your religious persuasion so i can know where to go from here. are you muslim, or a modernist Catholic or what? do tell.
Please tell me your religious persuasion so i can know where to go from here. are you muslim, or a modernist Catholic or what? do tell.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
If you say so bud. I just note it’s not telling the entire story.Rodrigo:
No, it’s not. It is a site that Muslims go to in order to learn about Islam. An apologetics site is aimed at other faiths to explain. This is not one of those.
So you don’t have this rule book, I see. Well, if you don’t understand what a tu quoque means, what can I say?Rodrigo:
You’re dodging the issue here perhaps because you’ve already tried and seen what the problem is. If you’re not going to explain your points, I’ll feel free to not respond to them.
You’re the one who wanted to compare the spread of Islam with the spread of Christianity, bro. Not me.Rodrigo:
Right, when Christianity was tiny and had no major world political influence. Christianity grew into what it is today hand in hand with the military expansion of Christian emperors. This is an undeniable historical fact, and this is why I say that if you’re going to condemn conversion by the sword, be prepared to condemn Christianity. Since I don’t want to do that, and neither do I want to be a hypocrite, I don’t use other religions’ having spread by the sword at some point in history in order to bash them.
So, let’s see: were the Christians on the sharp or blunt end of the sword in the beginning of Christianity?
Were the Muslims on the sharp or blunt end of the sword in the beginning of Islam?
Fair is fair. If you want to compare, let’s compare?
Over to you.
I would really appreciate it if you would kindly answer those questions instead of dodging.
That’s right, bud.Rodrigo:
No we weren’t. We were comparing the structure of your tirades against Islam with the structure of Nazi tirades against Jews. You write in the same style, using the same accusations, that the Nazis used. That’s the point, not anything about Jews themselves or Muslims themselves.
We’re comparing the Nazi’s propaganda against the Jews in the 1930s versus what I’m saying against the Muslims today.
Then you bring in the Christians. How is that not tu quoque?
Rodrigo:
I know you don’t see what tu quoque means. That is obvious. You even made up a rule book that says I have to I have to tell you what tu quoque means every time I use the term.
It’s tu quoque because you couldn’t find an example of how the Jews behaved in the 1930s, so you were saying Muslims today aren’t bad because the Christians are just as bad. How’s that for tu quoque?
pro_universal:
Aren’t you a little free with the truth here, bud? I ask all readers to see what we were talking about: which is the comparison between the behavior of the Jews in the 1930s with the behavior of the Muslims today.
And guess what? You brought up the Christians.
Well done, Muslim, I mean Christian.
Chau,
Rodrigo
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pro_universal
Guest
No, this is not the most important part. This is not the key to Christian belief. You have to believe, as in commit yourself. It is the faith that is important, not the words themselves. Even if you say “Jesus is Lord”, but then go about your life ignoring all of his teaching and not really caring about his message, then you really haven’t followed Jesus at all.
I am Catholic. That means I recognize the primacy of making Christ active in the world, as opposed to pretending that just saying his name is all I have to do. Christianity is a calling for your whole life, not just for your mouth when it happens to be free to say “Jesus”.
Athanasius, you are dodging the issue again. The point here is that you spending your time telling muslims “Muhammad is bad” is wasted, and it actively obstructs efforts that could produce real fruit, like more cooperation on good deeds and for securing peace. Those are values Jesus commands us to serve, and if you are doing something that works against them, you are taking the wrong path.
I would like you to respond directly to my question posed above: Which is the better alternative: You saying “Jesus Jesus Jesus” until you’re blue in the face and getting nothing but rejected in response, or you using the language of cooperation and mutual respect in order to help do good things for human beings?
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pro_universal
Guest
They both were. Muhammad and his followers were persecuted in the beginning, but they organized into a political entity with power much more quickly than Christians did.
It would be, except that that’s not what I said. You are creating a straw man, ie, making up an argument and then defeating it. That was not my argument, and I specifically said that in my last post. The point was one of hypocrisy, not one of “Muslims aren’t bad because christians were bad.”
Let me abstract the argument for you so it will be easy to read:
- If one religion must be condemned for spreading by force, then any religion that spreads by force must be condemned.
- Christianity spread by force.
- Therefore, if we follow premise one, Christianity must be condemned.
Conclusion: Premise 1 is something that must be rejected if Christianity is to be affirmed instead of condemned.
It’s a great comparison. There were in fact individual Jews who participated in Europe and America’s banking systems that ended up making huge profits based on the misery and poverty of millions of people. Today, there are a few individual muslims who feed on political and economic problems to serve their own aim of achieving military and political supremacy. It is wrong to use either group to blame the whole religion.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
pro_universal,
Are you allergic to the truth as far as Islam is concerned?
I’d rather Christians tell the truth about Islam and Muhammad rather than lying about how this Muhammad character was the greatest, most perfect human being that ever lived.
But that’s my opinion. You, on the other hand, are entitled to the exact opposite opinion.
Chau,
Rodrigo
Are you allergic to the truth as far as Islam is concerned?
I’d rather Christians tell the truth about Islam and Muhammad rather than lying about how this Muhammad character was the greatest, most perfect human being that ever lived.
But that’s my opinion. You, on the other hand, are entitled to the exact opposite opinion.
Chau,
Rodrigo
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
So how exactly were the Muslims persecuted. Now I know for sure you’re a Muslim. If you’re talking about Sumaya and her husband Yasir, pray tell.Rodrigo:
They both were. Muhammad and his followers were persecuted in the beginning, but they organized into a political entity with power much more quickly than Christians did.
A lot of words but still tu quoque.Rodrigo:
It would be, except that that’s not what I said. You are creating a straw man, ie, making up an argument and then defeating it. That was not my argument, and I specifically said that in my last post. The point was one of hypocrisy, not one of “Muslims aren’t bad because christians were bad.”
We’re discussing about the behavior of the Jews in the 1930s vs the behavior of the Muslims today, and you bring up the Christians.
Look up tu quoque, bud. You’re wasting everyone’s time.
Tu quoque. We’re talking about the difference between the 1930s Jews and the Muslims of today.
Tu quoque. We’re talking about the difference between the 1930s Jews and the Muslims of today.
Tu quoque. We’re talking about the difference between the 1930s Jews and the Muslims of today.
Tu quoque. We’re talking about the difference between the 1930s Jews and the Muslims of today.
So you have no evidence whatsoever. And thanks for demonstrating your anti-semitism. Call yourself a Catholic? Bah.Rodrigo:
It’s a great comparison. There were in fact individual Jews who participated in Europe and America’s banking systems that ended up making huge profits based on the misery and poverty of millions of people. Today, there are a few individual muslims who feed on political and economic problems to serve their own aim of achieving military and political supremacy. It is wrong to use either group to blame the whole religion.
Chau,
Rodrigo
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