Eve, Adam & His Rib

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buffalo said:
Why does it not make sense? Perhaps I can help.
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It just flies in the face of science, IMO. I think we’re getting dangerously close to violating the ban on evoultion threads so I’m going to move this discussion to The Back Fence. Everyone, I invite you to follow me over there.
 
Faith1960 said:
“I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me.” Philippians 4:13
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Faith1960, maybe you should consider not using this Scripture verse if you can’t come to believe in woman being fashioned from man, as the Church teaches.

The Replies of the Biblical Commission

Concerning the Historical Character of the First Three Chapters of Genesis
June 30, 1909 (AAS 1 [1909] 567ff; EB 332ff; Dz 2121ff)

III: In particular may the literal historical sense be called in doubt in the case of facts narrated in the same chapters which touch the foundations of the Christian religion: as are, among others, the creation of all things by God in the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from the first man; the unity of the human race; the original felicity of our first parents in the state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the command given by God to man to test his obedience; the transgression of the divine command at the instigation of the devil under the form of a serpent; the degradation of our first parents from that primeval state of innocence; and the promise of a future Redeemer?
**Answer: In the negative. **

The Magisterium has nowhere officially recanted this teaching. It may be infallible but it is still binding on us.

Pax Christi
 
jpjd said:
Here is #371 in its entirety:

"Each for the other" - "A unity in two"
371 God created man and woman together and willed each for the other. The Word of God gives us to understand this through various features of the sacred text. "It is not good that the man should be alone. I will make him a helper fit for him."242 None of the animals can be man’s partner.243 The woman God “fashions” from the man’s rib and brings to him elicits on the man’s part a cry of wonder, an exclamation of love and communion: "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh."244 Man discovers woman as another “I”, sharing the same humanity.

242 Gen 2:18.
243 Gen 2:19-20.
244 Gen 2:23.

Note that this section is quoting from Genesis. It is not making a statement on creation vs evolution; it is saying that man and woman share the same humanity.
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Adam and Eve sharing the same humanity is the essential truth taught by the Catholic Church.
 
shocktrooper said:
Faith1960, maybe you should consider not using this Scripture verse if you can’t come to believe in woman being fashioned from man, as the Church teaches.
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I can use any verse I choose. If I were a member of the UMC or UCC I’d still use it.
 
grannymh said:
Adam and Eve sharing the same humanity is the essential truth taught by the Catholic Church.
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Sharing the same humanity means…what, exactly? That Eve literally came from the rib of a sleeping Adam?
 
Faith1960 said:
I can use any verse I choose. If I were a member of the UMC or UCC I’d still use it.
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Yes, Faith1960, you can. And likewise, I can claim to be a hippopotamus but it would not make it so. My point is that you quote a scripture text that says you can come to do anything with the strength of Christ, but then in the same breath, you say that you can not believe a teaching of the Church because you can’t square that teaching with science.

No one in this forum can produce a single official magisterial document that recants what the PBC gave in the early 1900s. No one. They can say what they want, teach what they want, but it does not undo what an official arm of the Magisterium gave us over a hundred years ago. You can either put your faith in a false science and let it harden you against the truth or you can put your faith in the Truth and let Christ strengthen your faith.

If every bishop, priest and lay theologian came out and said Eve was not fashioned from Adam, then it would not make one bit of difference unless the Magisterium came out and propagated it in an official document over ruling the teaching of the PBC. Until this happens, I feel no need to wonder astray, especially under the umbrella of mere theories.

Science cannot prove or disprove how man was created nor how the universe was created. All they can do is offer theories and hypotheses.

Pax Christi
 
Faith1960 said:
???:rolleyes:
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I am just jabbing a little here while trying to be a little funny. I apologize. I was trying to say that just because you quote a verse that says you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you does not make it affective if you turn around and say that you can not believe in something because you can’t square it with science. I was trying to point out the unknown hypocrisy. I was hoping that you would have said, “yes, that is right, I can come to believe anything that Christ presents me through the guidance of the Holy Spirit”. I am sorry if I missed the mark.

Also, you seem to be looking at creation through the lens of a person that denies the supernatural or someone that denies miracles. I am not saying you do but it seems that way to me. Another limit of science is that it can not disprove acts of the supernatural since it only knows how to measure those things in the natural world. It always amazes me how people can claim to believe in a Person that claims to be GOD in the flesh, performs miracles, raises others to life from death, dies himself and then is resurrected, then ascends to the Father in Heaven, claims to come again to raise the living and the dead; they believe that a virgin had a divine Child, but for some reason they claim that this same Person that we are told created all things, did not create those things in the way Holy Scripture tells us because it defies science. It is as if the creator of all things can’t inject Himself into the natural order of things in a supernatural way. This position would certainly rule out the Incarnation.

I just never understood this position, especially when the Church has taken an infallible stance on it, but still binding on us.

Pax Christi
 
shocktrooper said:
I just never understood this position, especially when the Church has taken an infallible stance on it, but still binding on us.
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CORRECTION- I meant to say that…especially when the Church has taken a fallible stance on it, but still binding on us.

Sorry!
 
Faith1960 said:
Sharing the same humanity means…what, exactly? That Eve literally came from the rib of a sleeping Adam?
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This is where vocabulary can really mess things up, especially the word literally…

On a scientific level, sharing the same humanity means they are members of the same species. Those interested in the biology or anthropology of the human species should go to the Back Fence Forum.

On the philosophical level, sharing the same humanity means that they have the same human nature which is an unique unification of the material/non-material; rational/corporeal; spirit/matter; soul and body. Both Eve and Adam are created in the Image of God. This means that they are able to know and love God.

“Being man” or “being woman” is a reality. They are equal as real persons–“bone of my bones”. The last sentence in paragraph 371, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is “Man discovers woman as another “I,” sharing the same humanity.” If one insists on using the word literally, one can say that Eve and Adam were literally made for each other as they both have the same literal human nature.

Regarding the rib thing. That’s small potatoes in comparison to all the good things the universal Catechism says about woman and man. What is so difficult about the words “formation of Eve” when Scripture talks about Adam whom God “had formed” out of clay? (Genesis 2: 7- 8)

When in doubt, I use the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, as the definitive source for Catholic teachings. Paragraph 371 says: The woman God “fashions” from the man’s rib…" Please note the quotation marks around “fashions”. Formed and fashions basically mean that God is in charge of creating our first ancestors as true humans.

It is interesting that Humani Generis, Section 36, references the scientific inquiries “into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.” CCC 365 says: The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the 'form" of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body…"

How did God form both Eve and Adam? It seems to me that God’s creation of the spiritual soul is what makes Eve and Adam true humans. If that stupendous act of God involves some clay and a rib, so be it.

Blessings,
granny

Basic Catholic teaching **regarding Eve and Adam **
is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and its number in the Catechism’s search bar in link
www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Entering topics is also very useful since the Catechism does expand on the basics and implications. . Do check out the references in the margins and in the Index.

When one enters a paragraph number, like “paragraph 355”, and then clicks on the opening line, CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 355 the following is under the paragraph:

»
»Table of Contents
»
 
jpjd said:
Here is #371 in its entirety:

"Each for the other" - "A unity in two"
371 God created man and woman together and willed each for the other. The Word of God gives us to understand this through various features of the sacred text. "It is not good that the man should be alone. I will make him a helper fit for him."242 None of the animals can be man’s partner.243 **The woman God “fashions” from the man’s rib **and brings to him elicits on the man’s part a cry of wonder, an exclamation of love and communion: "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh."244 Man discovers woman as another “I”, sharing the same humanity.

242 Gen 2:18.
243 Gen 2:19-20.
244 Gen 2:23.

Note that this section is quoting from Genesis. It is not making a statement on creation vs evolution; it is saying that man and woman share the same humanity.
Click to expand...
I disagree. It clearly references that Eve came from the rib of Adam and that completely rules out that Eve could have “evolved” from a lower life form
 
grannymh said:
This is where vocabulary can really mess things up, especially the word literally…

On a scientific level, sharing the same humanity means they are members of the same species.

On the philosophical level, sharing the same humanity means that they have the same human nature which is an unique unification of the material/non-material; rational/corporeal; spirit/matter; soul and body. Both Eve and Adam are created in the Image of God. This means that they are able to know and love God.

“Being man” or “being woman” is a reality. They are equal as real persons–“bone of my bones”. The last sentence in paragraph 371, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is “Man discovers woman as another “I,” sharing the same humanity.” If one insists on using the word literally, one can say that Eve and Adam were literally made for each other as they both have the same literal human nature.

Regarding the rib thing. That’s small potatoes in comparison to all the good things the universal Catechism says about woman and man. What is so difficult about the words “formation of Eve” when Scripture talks about Adam whom God “had formed” out of clay? (Genesis 2: 7- 8)

When in doubt, I use the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, as the definitive source for Catholic teachings. Paragraph 371 says: The woman God “fashions” from the man’s rib…" Please note the quotation marks around “fashions”. Formed and fashions basically mean that God is in charge of creating our first ancestors as true humans.

It is interesting that Humani Generis, Section 36, references the scientific inquiries “into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.” CCC 365 says: The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the 'form" of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body…"

How did God form both Eve and Adam? It seems to me that God’s creation of the spiritual soul is what makes Eve and Adam true humans. If that stupendous act of God involves some clay and a rib, so be it.
Click to expand...
What if if didn’t involve clay or a rib?
 
=grannymh;7654241]
When in doubt, I use the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, as the definitive source for Catholic teachings. Paragraph 371 says: The woman God “fashions” from the man’s rib…" Please note the quotation marks around "fashions". Formed and fashions basically mean that God is in charge of creating our first ancestors as true humans.
Click to expand...
Don’t forget that it also says 'From the man’s rib."
It is interesting that Humani Generis, Section 36, references the scientific inquiries “into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.” CCC 365 says: The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the 'form" of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body…"
Click to expand...
Don’t leave out the rest of that quote.Here is section 36 in its entiretly
  1. For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place **with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter **- for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However, this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faith.[11] Some however, rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question
All the Pope is saying is that the Chruch does not forbid “research and discussions” on the human body coming from pre-existant and living matter, he doesn’t say that is what the Church teaches, in fact he then warns Catholics not to act as if it were already certain.
 
We know you would rather we be in the “Back Fence”

And we know why Granny.
grannymh said:
This is where vocabulary can really mess things up, especially the word literally…

On a scientific level, sharing the same humanity means they are members of the same species. Those interested in the biology or anthropology of the human species should go to the Back Fence Forum.

On the philosophical level, sharing the same humanity means that they have the same human nature which is an unique unification of the material/non-material; rational/corporeal; spirit/matter; soul and body. Both Eve and Adam are created in the Image of God. This means that they are able to know and love God.

“Being man” or “being woman” is a reality. They are equal as real persons–“bone of my bones”. The last sentence in paragraph 371, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, is “Man discovers woman as another “I,” sharing the same humanity.” If one insists on using the word literally, one can say that Eve and Adam were literally made for each other as they both have the same literal human nature.

Regarding the rib thing. That’s small potatoes in comparison to all the good things the universal Catechism says about woman and man. What is so difficult about the words “formation of Eve” when Scripture talks about Adam whom God “had formed” out of clay? (Genesis 2: 7- 8)

When in doubt, I use the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, as the definitive source for Catholic teachings. Paragraph 371 says: The woman God “fashions” from the man’s rib…" Please note the quotation marks around “fashions”. Formed and fashions basically mean that God is in charge of creating our first ancestors as true humans.

It is interesting that Humani Generis, Section 36, references the scientific inquiries “into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter - for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.” CCC 365 says: The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the 'form" of the body: i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body…"

How did God form both Eve and Adam? It seems to me that God’s creation of the spiritual soul is what makes Eve and Adam true humans. If that stupendous act of God involves some clay and a rib, so be it.

Blessings,
granny

Basic Catholic teaching **regarding Eve and Adam **
is found in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4
Paragraphs 355-421.

The good news of Jesus Christ follows in Paragraph 422, etc.

One can put the word paragraph and its number in the Catechism’s search bar in link
www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Entering topics is also very useful since the Catechism does expand on the basics and implications. . Do check out the references in the margins and in the Index.

When one enters a paragraph number, like “paragraph 355”, and then clicks on the opening line, CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 355 the following is under the paragraph:

»
»Table of Contents
»
Click to expand...
 
Faith1960 said:
What if if didn’t involve clay or a rib?
Click to expand...
"If that stupendous act of God [creation of the spiritual soul which made Eve and Adam true humans] involved some clay and a rib, so be it. In other words, in my humble opinion, quibbling over clay or a rib is akin to debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The bottom line is that there are some things which I can’t completely understand so I tolerate them. That way I can avoid the fundamentalist mode.

Blessings,
granny
THE HOLY EUCHARIST
****IS THE LIGHT, STRENGTH, AND LIFE OF OUR SOULS.
 
Third_Day said:
All the Pope is saying is that the Chruch does not forbid “research and discussions” on the human body coming from pre-existant and living matter, he doesn’t say that is what the Church teaches, in fact he then warns Catholics not to act as if it were already certain.
Click to expand...
As I pointed out, Pope Pius XII referenced the scientific inquiries which means that he was referring to what science is saying. As far as what the Church teaches, one needs to read Section 35, especially the opening sentence to understand why the Church needs to deal with issues of science. What really amazed me was the Pope’s understanding of the attack on the key doctrines in Section 37. I had thought that the assault on Original Sin came later.

You are so right about Pope Pius XII warning Catholics. Maybe he was also warning scientists to conduct their research properly. Did you catch all the provisions for even discussing the scientific topics? Can you tell that I am really impressed with this Pope?

Thank you and Jpid and ChadS for putting Humani Generis on the table.

Blessings,
granny

Luke 23: 33-43
 
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