Ever Just Get Tired Of Debating Topics Here?

[benidict]

I believe that I understand what you’re saying. I also believe that many people misunderstand the following terms when they are used in Spiritual Theology:

• Spiritual battle
• Spiritual warfare
• battle for souls
• fight
• conflict
• war

These are words that date back to the Fathers and later to the great teachers of the Church. The problem is that in Greek and in Latin these words had multiple meanings. In Spiritual Theology they don’t mean the same thing that they mean on the street. Many people apply Webster’s definitions of these words. That’s when you get into trouble. Webster never wrote Ascetical Theology. The Fathers, Doctors and other teachers of the Church were not thinking about conflicts between people when they used these terms. They were thinking about man’s struggle for his salvation. It does not mean that there were never any conflicts between people. Had there not been, Paul’s letters to the Corinthians would have been just nagging memos. But the manner used by Paul, the Fathers, the Doctors and the teachers of the spiritual life was direct, focussed on the problem, not the person, and most importantly, they did not allow the debates to affect them. They were masters at emotional distancing… That’s why they were all so sane.

The style of our discussions are not the same as those of the great teachers of the Church. The style of our discussions is Marian Webster’s definition of war, combat and all those other words. It’s emotionally violent. I’m not sure if it does greater damage to the poster than it does to the reader. In the end, the reader can just blow it off and move along. But the poster is left with this rage, frustration, fear and other non pleasant feelings. It has to be tiring. I can’t believe that some of the people whom I see arguing ferociously on these threads do not feel anything.

I’ve learned to look a these threads as I look at the rest of the world around me. As St. Francis would say, “everything is beyond me.” Padre Pio rephrased it, but it meant the same thing, “worrying is useless.” This way, you keep your inner silence. You do what you have to do and you move along to your next obligation. God is still God. That post is not vacant.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

God bless you Brother. And thank you for your feed back. I will say, that I never try to make the debates personal. I will challenge the founders of any given movement, and also the doctrine. I however do not know what God is doing with the person on the other end. So I let them know its not about me and them. Its about finding the Truth, and contending for it. I am thankful for all the brothers and sisters here who correct me when I am wrong on an issue. I am also thankful, when someone from another faith corrects me, if I say something about their faith that is not correct. Peace and prayers for you Brother. I believe you have a harder job than mine. .
Oh yes, and one more thing. ST Francis played no small part in my coming to the Catholic Church.

 

[Archbishop_10-K]

Thanks for the link. I didn’t have time to read all of the articles, but I really enjoyed the one on the deacons. It’s very impressive, because the author is very young person, a college senior. What I like about it is that he does not go into “we do it this way” and “they do it that way” and “our way is better”. He simply explains what the Order of Deacon is and his ministerial role. Then is states, without criticism, that the Traditionalist Movement does not make use of permanent deacons. It actually made me think back to Canon Law. Actually, they can make use of permanent deacons. The permanent deacons existed long before the Tridentine mass was sculpted as we know it today. In fact, just two years before he died, our Holy Father Francis was asked to become a deacon. The reason was rather interesting, but a topic for another thread.

I liked the way that this particular entry was done. It showed that the person is intelligent enough to know how to make a point and secure enough that he has no need to convince others about anything. It’s like putting something on the table. Take it or leave it. That’s healthy faith without the debates.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Greetings. I’m the author of that article. I haven’t logged onto CAF since 2007, it looks like, but a friend mentioned that someone was commenting on my article here so I decided to check back in.

To clarify, I meant that a lot of trads frown upon permanent deacons, but certainly not all do. There’s at least one FSSP church that borrows a permanent deacon from the diocese, and my local diocesan “motu proprio” Tridentine Mass parish also has a permanent deacon that distributes Communion. And the Institute of Christ the King has ordained at least one man permanently to the diaconate within their Clerical Oblates, but they’re celibate.

If I had wanted to discuss the subject in more detail, I would’ve made mention of the Council of Trent’s desire to restore the permanent diaconate. Saint Francis is a good example. Reginald Cardinal Pole was also a deacon for a long time even while cardinal, before becoming the Archbishop of Canterbury. I’m definitely a supporter of permanent deacons, even married ones, and I definitely think that seminaries should recruit as hard for deacons as they do for priests. But this is a minority view within trad-dom, so I avoid talking about it in a non-discussion-forum venue.

 

[Gregory_I]

I do wish the West would address deacons as" Father-Deacon" as they do in the east, so it at least feels more…I dunno, flowing? You have Father, and Father-Deacon. No?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I do wish the West would address deacons as" Father-Deacon" as they do in the east, so it at least feels more…I dunno, flowing? You have Father, and Father-Deacon. No?

A religious deacon is titled Reverend Brother.

As for the Father Deacon. I think this goes to the East calling all vowed religious men (those that are not ordained) Father and women Mother because they are spiritual Fathers and Mothers.

This is something done in the Orthodox and not really carried over all that much into the Eastern Catholic Churches today.

 

[JReducation]

A religious deacon is titled Reverend Brother.

As for the Father Deacon. I think this goes to the East calling all vowed religious men (those that are not ordained) Father and women Mother because they are spiritual Fathers and Mothers.

This is something done in the Orthodox and not really carried over all that much into the Eastern Catholic Churches today.

That’s because the title “Father” was not reserved for the ordained. In the early writings of the Desert Fathers we often see the writers using expressions such as “children” or “my son”. We know that not all of these Desert Fathers were deacons or priests. They were the precursors of what would later be the religious brother who surffaces for the first time in monasticism. It is in monasticism that this religious ceases to be called “Father” and is called “Frater”, while the superior of the monastery retains the title of Abba, hence the Abbot.

As history moves along, eventually, many of the abbots were also deacons or priests. Hence, the title becomes the title for the ordained. It evolves differently in the West and East. In the West, Father is not only the priest, but he is also the founder, the superior and the spiritual leader. In the East he is the monk and eventually, the title is applied to the secular clergy.

Even in the West, we did not apply the title Father to the secular clergy, deacons or priests until the 19th century. That’s why we have saints with such names as Don Bosco and Mssr. Vincent. Vincent and John Bosco were not religious. They were secular priests. Their title was not Father, but the equivalent of Mr, Sir or My Lord.

In the United States the first diocesan priests are mentioned in the writings of the early American Catholics as Mister. Elizabeth Ann Seton, who belongs to the first generation of American Catholics writes about her spiritual directors and superiors, who were all Sulpicians and refers to them as Mister not Father. That’s becaue the Sulpicians are not religious. They are a priestly fraternity.

It’s very hard to use Father Deacon in the Western world, because the use of the term has evolved very differently. It has been applied to a spiritual father,which is not the proper role of a deacon. The western deacon is the servant, not the father. As I said above, Father is the priest, superior, founder or spiritual leader.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[At_Trent]

Thanks for all the replies, lots to think about in here.

Ha, funny to see a thread this long without bickering lol. Miracles happen

 

[Patrick60]

I don’t see myself leaving CA, but I’m just losing interest in debating/arguing the same topics over and over.

I suppose others get tired of it too, as some of the regulars are seldom seen posting here lately.

Is it like everything else, you just get tired or need a break ?

It’s charity to recognize when someone new enters the conversation. Being hospitable and entertaining strangers can be wearying but God blesses us for it. Tiredness is what rest is for. Even Jesus retired to a lonely place from time to time. Rest is a good thing otherwise God Himself would not have rested, let alone created a day for it(the Sabbath). God wants us to be refreshed. Sometimes He calls us to be still and know that He is God. We can lean back and put our head against his bosom, as John the apostle always did. In that position alone can you hear the beating of His heart. The point is intimacy with God. How close do we want to get to God?

 

[CatholicFireman]

Thanks for all the replies, lots to think about in here.

Ha, funny to see a thread this long without bickering lol. Miracles happen

Thank God for moderaters.

 

[Timothy17]

As iron sharpens iron so men sharpen men.

We all exhaust and need rest ; however, that does not mean for a moment that the fight is not worth fighting. We are duty bound to defend our Faith, and the best place to do that is here, where we can sample arguments and critique and be critiqued.

The Church has always wrestled over God. The difference is we do this without splintering into a billion pieces. We do this because we are established upon the Truth, which is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and those who are not set upon the Truth, and prefer lies and errors - such are those who break off and fall to the wayside. A man can be alone in the world but have the Truth and take comfort and refuge in it, because the Truth has that power, it has that effect. It truly sets us free, and we covet that freedom which we rightly credit God for giving us.

We shouldn’t be scandalized by disputes and discussions. Such is evidence of a weak conscience. We are taught to practice fortitude : Half the time I don’t even like my best friend. All too often I am chastising him for making poor decisions or for bad/poor thinking. This in no way means I don’t love him as my friend and wouldn’t lay my life down for him, even in spite of him (oddly enough). Truth and Love overcome such things and are stronger bonds than any sentiment or whimsical feeling. The Truth, by nature, is exact, coarse, and sharp - it shouldn’t be surprising when our speech and discussion reflect that, especially over so important and grave a subject matter as the Truth Himself.

Pax Christi,
Tim

 

[JReducation]

It’s charity to recognize when someone new enters the conversation. Being hospitable and entertaining strangers can be wearying but God blesses us for it. Tiredness is what rest is for. Even Jesus retired to a lonely place from time to time. Rest is a good thing otherwise God Himself would not have rested, let alone created a day for it(the Sabbath). God wants us to be refreshed. Sometimes He calls us to be still and know that He is God. We can lean back and put our head against his bosom, as John the apostle always did. In that position alone can you hear the beating of His heart. The point is intimacy with God. How close do we want to get to God?

You reminded me of something very beautiful that we learned in novitiate and which we practice until the day we die, the Grand Silence. It begins after Compline and it’s not broken until after breakfast. Christ’s voice is the last voice you hear before you rest and the first you hear upon awakening.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sherry_G]

You reminded me of something very beautiful that we learned in novitiate and which we practice until the day we die, the Grand Silence. It begins after Compline and it’s not broken until after breakfast. Christ’s voice is the last voice you hear before you rest and the first you hear upon awakening.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Now, THAT was beautiful! Thank you for sharing that. Even in my busy married life with a full time job in the secular world, this is something I can strive for.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Got a new one.

When a user is so weak in their opinion that they must personally attack those who hold opinions that differ from theirs.

That the only way that their opinion is valid is if there is something personally or intellectually wrong with the person with another opinion.

Very weak.

 

[StTommyMore]

Got a new one.

When a user is so weak in their opinion that they must personally attack those who hold opinions that differ from theirs.

That the only way that their opinion is valid is if there is something personally or intellectually wrong with the person with another opinion.

Very weak.

Sadly I know I have been guilty of this, but I am improving, by the grace of God.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Sadly I know I have been guilty of this, but I am improving, by the grace of God.

I can’t recall doing this, but that does not mean that I am guilty of of it. I know I am guilty of much worse.

I hope I am improving and this thread is a step in the right direction for me to look at certain areas and amend what I am doing.

 

[johnpauls]

In my humble opinion:

The religious debates seem endless and reoccurring due to the nature of the answer. Frankly, in my recent and intense search for truth, I have realized that nearly every religion/sect out there requires a foundation of non-biblical (some might say tradition if their church is old enough) supporting previously developed dogmas - including simple words to describe extremely complex theology.

Therefore, you can give retort on an issue, yet I think many fail to realize that their explanations or counter arguments often contain a mountain of mini-dogmas that all overlap each other. This is what then develops into the “grind-out” arguments that are never resolved.

In a basic nutshell:
Catholics have their traditions and self-made words to explain complex dogma (they call tradition).
Protestants have much of the same, yet through in their particular gripe on one or more of the complex dogmas.
Mormons created their own “word-of-God” to back up their unique dogmas.
Jehovah’s Witnesses have developed their own group of men to tell their followers what traditions and dogmas they may, or may not believe.
Seventh Day Adventists decided to hold a few specific traditions and dogmas ultra important - while trying not to seem as radical as Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Born Again Christians just like to tell everyone who is not a born again christian they are going to hell.
and…
Pentecostals & “Holy Rollers” forgot to read Paul’s warning at 1 Corinthians 14:23 so as not to seem as if they lost their minds to everyone else who views them speaking in tongues.

Frankly, I am sometimes surprised when a logical point does come out of a discussion. I come to these sites to glean one small point every week. Makes it worth it in my search.

 

[Labarum]

This is the reason that you will be seeing me a lot less here. I seriously believe more and more trolls are showing up. It’s like we have to have every new member at gunpoint before they make their first post. I can’t stand it when people come here and make asinine ad hominem arguments and blatantly strawman the faith. They get their opinions of religion from 4chan and then, in an attempt to make themselves appear smarter, will blindly quote Richard Dawkins.

There are some other smaller Catholic forums out there that are less debating and more of a discussion. For example: Catholic Chapter House forums or Catholic.net forums. I am finding now that I sign up for several forums but tend to gravitate to one or two of them regularly.

Another thing to consider is that a lot of people come to CA precisely because there are people like you whom they seek your knowledge about the faith. If the regulars left then who would be left to defend the faith on CA, to answer questions, to delve deeper in discussion? For most this is probably the only place where they can have this conversation.

Just a thought…

 

[mark_avery]

I/we think that its always important that yes there are moderators but we have also the oversite of such experienced resolve ie the well established forum users.
I suppose the hardest part is to sit back and let the new or the young take the lead or build upon without taking away their teaching or understanding,for surely(established forum users) they are their with or without comment.
The bible does explain that the new or young have need to be heard!
We all get old or bored,some quicker than others!
take care!
MUCH THANKS!!

 

[Gregory_I]

I heard it may be easy to talk to others about the faith, and even get them to understand. But when a Catholic corrects noather Catholic…uh-uh. Ain’t happening. It’s harder to convine our own than it is to convince those outside of Faith.

How sad.

 

[JReducation]

I heard it may be easy to talk to others about the faith, and even get them to understand. But when a Catholic corrects noather Catholic…uh-uh. Ain’t happening. It’s harder to convine our own than it is to convince those outside of Faith.

How sad.

I think that in real time, Catholics are like everyone else. Some are capable of civil discourse and others are not able to do so. On a forum, it’s a different world. Some people speak to others as if they had authority over them, which is something that we would not do in person. It’s the classic saying, “The medium becomes the message.” The manner in which the poster speaks distorts or even distracts from the message. This does not happen as much in real time as it does in cyber time. In real time, you see a face. You hear a voice. Because we can perceive the other person’s feelings, we can develop empathy with the other person and try to see his or her point of view. The human to human contact motivates us to be more patient, more attentive and less aggressive. I believe that visual contact allows you to gage when you’re pushing too far and too fast. All of these cues, so necessary for communication, are not present on the Internet.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Gregory_I]

Hence emoticons??