Everlasting Life, what does it mean to you?

[catsrus]

"He that exercises faith in me, even though he “dies” will come to life (John 11:25)

Hey Catrus, I think this “coming to life” stuff mentioned earlier does actually come from the new testatment.

You answered nothing in my post. All you continue to do is push this idea that the word “jehovah” should be scattered throughout the NT, even though it was NEVER there to begin with. Publishing a nwt Bible and adding it does not make it so…
Regarding your message posted above, yes, John 11:25 is from the NT and yes I do believe we come to everlasting life through Christ’s sacrifice. What’s your point?
You, if you believe the wt, STILL think that Ecc. 9:5 is your fate. jws say that John 11:25 points to nothing but jws surviving armageddon and living forever, by their jw selfs, on the earth.
Further, you seem to make a major point of the recent scandle among a few renegade priests. ** If, **as you claim, you have ever been a Catholic, you know that The Church is made up of sinners, the ones Christ came for. But these sinners are not The Church. The are the patients of The Church. Unlike the wt, The Church ministers to sinners, the wt just disfellowships them and then slams the kingdom hall door.
Jesus wept!

 

[tommy4321]

catsrus:

You answered nothing in my post. All you continue to do is push this idea that the word “jehovah” should be scattered throughout the NT, even though it was NEVER there to begin with. Publishing a nwt Bible and adding it does not make it so…
Regarding your message posted above, yes, John 11:25 is from the NT and yes I do believe we come to everlasting life through Christ’s sacrifice. What’s your point?
You, if you believe the wt, STILL think that Ecc. 9:5 is your fate. jws say that John 11:25 points to nothing but jws surviving armageddon and living forever, by their jw selfs, on the earth.
Further, you seem to make a major point of the recent scandle among a few renegade priests. ** If, **as you claim, you have ever been a Catholic, you know that The Church is made up of sinners, the ones Christ came for. But these sinners are not The Church. The are the patients of The Church. Unlike the wt, The Church ministers to sinners, the wt just disfellowships them and then slams the kingdom hall door.
Jesus wept!

Sorry I didn’t answer your post entirely. I did notice that too and I apologize, my wife and son came home and she is not happy when I spend time here.

I think what the Witnesses believe (I always like to say in my posts I am what they call a Bible Student) is that they are in a special group of God’s people that that give praise to God seperate from Jesus. (Even the definition of distinct means seperate).

The Bible does speak about keeping the congregation clean and disfellowshipping comes from NY scriptures. John 12:42 speaks about being disfellowshipped in Jesus time “,All the same, many even the rulers actually put faith in him, but because of the Pharisees they would not confess him for fear of being expelled from the synagogue”. Someone expelled can be let in again even from some pretty serious stuff if that truly repent from there wrong doings. I am really OK with this because you want to trust your members, especially if they are going to be left with your young children.

I hear what your saying about only Witness getting in heaven. They don’t believe that. They do believe they are the chosen group realizing the seperation of Jesus and God as opposed to the Trinity that there is one true God, but there is an asterisk that there is this mystery created in the 3rd century that has three Gods all in one. That is where they seperate themselves in how they praise Jehovah God through Jesus as opposed to the three God theory. But they do not believe they are the only ones finding everlating life. They believe that during the resurection an individual will have the chance then for salvation in acknowledging God’s invididual soveriegnty as the one true God the same way Moses described it. Moses didn’t say there would be anything coming down the pipeline that there would soon be three God’s combined in one with a great mystery. Man created that in a third entury council. Thats what they feel they are in the truth ahead of others in my opinion.

Your post came in at the same time at At His Feet’s did yesterday and his always require me doing some much reading to give his answers and it was not right that I went into leaving God’s name out of the NT and pointing out it is only used in the OT as I thought that is where you were going.

Witnesses minister to sinners like me. They know I have some stuff going on putting one on with buddies, playing 21 at Casino’s and a few other things they don’t like and they are trying to help me live a cleaner life. Not disfellowshipping me. I don’t live in the fear of them that I read here, I haven’t seen it happen to us. Forums disfellowship people and don’t let them back in if they don’t like what they are saying or are rude to their members which is a form of disfellowshipping. Thanks for being patient in letting me put up what time didn’t allow yesterday and let me know if I am still misssing anything. Peace, tommy

 

[carol_marie]

Tommy,

You said that “someone (disfellowshipped) can be let back in if they truly repent of their sins.” Not true.

I was a JW for several years. I sinned. The sort of run of the mill typical sin that unfortunatly lots of young, unmarried people fall into. I was disfellowshipped. I got married - had a baby - and never missed ONE meeting. I sat in the back row & was shunned by my brothers & sisters. After 1 year, I went to my elders. I told them I was deeply sorry for my sin. I had repented and asked to be forgiven. I sobbed and asked for mercy - not just for me - but so that I could raise my son in the JW faith.

In the JW religion - the elders claim they speak for Jehovah - letting you know if He has forgiven your sins. They said they would “consider” my request. A week later, I was summonded back to the Kingdom Hall and the elders said that it was decided that I was not forgiven. They agreed I was repentent - but they said that “not enough time had passed for Jehovah to forgive me.” Sobbing, I asked how long they thought it would be?? Their reponse: 10 years. No, that’s not a typo - they said they would not be suprised if it took 10 YEARS for Jehovah to forgive me. They went on to say that they were almost certain that Armegeddon would come before that time so really, there was just no hope for me or my son.

Now you tell me… does that sound like the loving, forgiving, merciful God that you’ve read about in the Bible. The answer is no.

Tommy, you aren’t going to aprreciate what it means to BE a JW as a Bible student. Of course they are so loving to you now… accepting of your “problems” and willing to help you work through them. That is NEVER the case after you are baptized. From that moment on, you must live a PERFECT life (on the outside - they aren’t really concerned with your character or your virtue inside) and if you don’t - they are quick to condem. It’s one thing to not tolerate sin… the Bible does speak of that. But it’s another to speak for God in deciding whether or not a person is sorry. Can they read my heart? No - that’s something only God can do.

All Catholics reading this… can you even imagine a Priest - after you’ve confessed your sins saying, “I think it’s going to be about 10 years until God forgives you for this???”

Oh I could go on & on… but it all falls on your deaf ears. I believe you have been blinded by Satan - fed a steady diet of Watchtower lies and you just can’t see the truth behind what you’ve been told. I said I felt sorry for you… I really really do. I’ve been right where you are - I’ve spewed the very same lies you spew - I believed I was right. But I wasn’t. I was so wrong.

They don’t speak for Jehovah. They never have. They never will.
You may not believe this now - but trust me… you will someday.

 

[tommy4321]

carol marie:

Tommy,

You said that “someone (disfellowshipped) can be let back in if they truly repent of their sins.” Not true.

I was a JW for several years. I sinned. The sort of run of the mill typical sin that unfortunatly lots of young, unmarried people fall into. I was disfellowshipped. I got married - had a baby - and never missed ONE meeting. I sat in the back row & was shunned by my brothers & sisters. After 1 year, I went to my elders. I told them I was deeply sorry for my sin. I had repented and asked to be forgiven. I sobbed and asked for mercy - not just for me - but so that I could raise my son in the JW faith.

In the JW religion - the elders claim they speak for Jehovah - letting you know if He has forgiven your sins. They said they would “consider” my request. A week later, I was summonded back to the Kingdom Hall and the elders said that it was decided that I was not forgiven. They agreed I was repentent - but they said that “not enough time had passed for Jehovah to forgive me.” Sobbing, I asked how long they thought it would be?? Their reponse: 10 years. No, that’s not a typo - they said they would not be suprised if it took 10 YEARS for Jehovah to forgive me. They went on to say that they were almost certain that Armegeddon would come before that time so really, there was just no hope for me or my son.

Now you tell me… does that sound like the loving, forgiving, merciful God that you’ve read about in the Bible. The answer is no.

Tommy, you aren’t going to aprreciate what it means to BE a JW as a Bible student. Of course they are so loving to you now… accepting of your “problems” and willing to help you work through them. That is NEVER the case after you are baptized. From that moment on, you must live a PERFECT life (on the outside - they aren’t really concerned with your character or your virtue inside) and if you don’t - they are quick to condem. It’s one thing to not tolerate sin… the Bible does speak of that. But it’s another to speak for God in deciding whether or not a person is sorry. Can they read my heart? No - that’s something only God can do.

All Catholics reading this… can you even imagine a Priest - after you’ve confessed your sins saying, “I think it’s going to be about 10 years until God forgives you for this???”

Oh I could go on & on… but it all falls on your deaf ears. I believe you have been blinded by Satan - fed a steady diet of Watchtower lies and you just can’t see the truth behind what you’ve been told. I said I felt sorry for you… I really really do. I’ve been right where you are - I’ve spewed the very same lies you spew - I believed I was right. But I wasn’t. I was so wrong.

They don’t speak for Jehovah. They never have. They never will.
You may not believe this now - but trust me… you will someday.

Carol:

I have not seen this. This 10 year stuff sounds unreasonable and hard to believe. We had a young lady who was shacking it up with someone and is currently disfellowshipped and it is my understanding once repented your back in.

I am not here to defend any one faith, cause I believe the relationship with God is a personal one and do admit I feel real safe with my child among the congregation.

Your story does bother me and I am reeeeaaaal good at researching this stuff and times frames. Think about if nobody is disfellowshipped at all, like the clergy stuff going on. How is a father to fele after that happened to his son Knowing the congregation could have controlled it?

If you under take a real strict path you take, disfellowshipping should not be an issue. If there our defilements existing there are other faiths that will ultimately lead to God even if one has to wait until the resurrection. I’ve learned a lot about what people thin here that Babylon the Great and Revelation has already happened and could not disagree more and think those with that view are not into the truth.

But as a Witness and learning what you did, how were you able to go back to all the stuff you leanred that was false, Three Gods in one, prayers to Saints without going to God through Jesus, non-Godly festivals? Didn’t all that bother you after coming into a clear view of what has been wrong and in the way of having a personal relationship with God? I don’t think I could do it knowing what I know now.

I think the group that should become Witnesses are ones that have pretty cleans standards to start with knowing that disfellowing is not an issue and they will be drawn close to God.

Thanks for sharing your story. Blessings with Christ, tommy

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by tommy4321
Witnesses minister to sinners like me. They know I have some stuff going on putting one on with buddies, playing 21 at Casino’s and a few other things they don’t like and they are trying to help me live a cleaner life. Not disfellowshipping me. I don’t live in the fear of them that I read here, I haven’t seen it happen to us.

Of course they are ministering to you because you have not yet been baptised by them. Don’t even THINK of having any further fun with your friends after you take “the plunge”.
I really hope you do some heavy duty research (outside of only what the jws are telling you) before you step into this unhappy life.

originally posted by tommy4321
it is my understanding

Tommy, please look and listen beyond what a few jws are explaining to you. Your “understanding” is only an echo of what you are being told.

 

[carol_marie]

tommy4321:

Carol:

But as a Witness and learning what you did, how were you able to go back to all the stuff you leanred that was false, Three Gods in one, prayers to Saints without going to God through Jesus, non-Godly festivals? Didn’t all that bother you after coming into a clear view of what has been wrong and in the way of having a personal relationship with God? I don’t think I could do it knowing what I know now.

Hi Tommy,
Regarding my “10 year sentence” - it IS hard to believe - I agree. After my elders told me that I contacted elders in a neighboring Kingdom Hall - they came to my home & basically said they “felt for me - but my reinstatement was up to the elders that handled my case.”

As far as going back to believing what the Watchtower told me was false - That didn’t happen overnight - I can assure you. Even after I was disfellowshipped and not allowed back I continued to believe the witnesses were correct. It took several years of serious study - the Bible ALONE without any book (Watchtower publication or otherwise) and MUCH prayer. I just couldn’t believe that or accept that Jehovah would hold my sin against me for all those years when I was so terribly sorry. It didn’t jive with what I was reading in the Bible. So I prayed and I prayed and I prayed… and my eyes were finally opened. I began to realize that EVERYTHING I was taught and accepted as a JW was false. I read accounts from elders, overseers, people who worked at Bethel who left the organization after uncovering the false prophecies - the repeated “errors” - and that is SUCH a big deal - because either the WT speaks for Jehovah or they don’t. IF they are Jehovah’s spokesman, surely He woud make sure that everything they say is correct. He was able to do that with the Bible - why should I believe that His “spokesman” wouldn’t get it right also? Only they haven’t. They’ve gotten it wrong so many many times - it’s embarassing actually.

So once I was able to see that they do not speak for Jehovah - that they don’t have the “truth” I took it upon myself to find out who does. And God led me - here - to the Catholic Church. The very church that Jesus himself founded. It’s been a long journey… but I’m home at last.

Please look long and hard at what you’re getting yourself into. Not just for you… but for your dear son. I beg you.
CM

 

[tommy4321]

Hi:

This testimony of the ten year sentence and loosing all your friend seems very convincing, but I still don’t buy into in and here’s why:

When you make a commintent to become one of Jehovah’s people (which is not for everybody) you are agreeing to give up many earthly pleasurses that please an individual and not God. For example, when I connected up with friends last week at a Casino and drank and gambled. It did not feel right. These are earthly pleasures. If you take the step to dedicate each and every day of your life to dedication to God, sitting around with rowdy people banging glasses and high fives over money isn’t that important any more and the taple of people you are sitting aroung actually appears to be a table of people of the influence of Satan, not God. I wouldn’t consider, going to the baptism step if I knew that I would some day be going against the commitment I would make to God.

As far as my young Son, A few years ago we were doing both the Witness and Catholic stuff at the same time. After mass I went over and gave a hug to the Pastor, who we were friends serving on some committees together, and my Son (6 at the time) whispered over to me, “Is that God”? Seriously, thats how it looks to a young child the praise given to man. Today, at eight years old he know his way around the Books of the Bible better than most adults I have met and raises his hand and makes comments at gatherings with our congregation. As his father, I am quite proud of the progress he has made to become a Christian.

Christian is the key word here. Jesus is the strong founder of Christianity, and I do respectfully disagree that it was Catholicism that he created, it was Christianty. Do you think Jesus only loves those who believe in him that attend a Catholic Church when there are a zillion different forms of Christianity?

This ten year sentence does sound harsh without knowing all the details. I will admit it bothered me when I read it yesterday as I can tell you are sincere. I have also stated a long laundry list of things that bother me on the big boat and one that no one here as answere yet, it is this:

Isaiah 65: 21 “and they will certainly build houses and have occupancy and they will certainly plant vinyards and eat fruitage”.
Why is it being said the the OT doesn’t matter? This thread is not about disfellowshipping (something I understand) but about the New heaven and New Earth. So why does the quote above refer to the new earth as an actual physical place where they build houses and eat fruit. All Catholics are telling me it is a spiritual thing. Don’t we like our senses and want hope of a physical state of being in the New Earth where Jesus said he will bring us back to “life”. Life has to do with breathing air, and I am not convinced that Catholics can explain Isaiah 65:21 in any detail.

Yes, there could be 2 weaknesses (or strenghs???) in our following, disfellowshipping and making predictions. But look at the list I have cited in prior posts. Peace and Love, tommy

 

[catsrus]

Isaiah 65: 21 “and they will certainly build houses and have occupancy and they will certainly plant vinyards and eat fruitage”.

Okay, I’ll bite. Since this one particular verse is so important to you…
Figuartive expression of a state of happiness. A dramatic (emphasis added) expression of universal paradise to lift the down trodden spirits of those in Babylonian exile who were miserable on a day to day basis. Expression of HOPE. Frequently used by the prophets of old to deal with the back sliding, stiff necked, oppressed chosen people.
Many Jewish prisoners of the Nazi regime took these verses and commuted them to a hope for a place in Palestine where they might live unoppressed and free from assault.
They are not to be taken literally anymore than the Jews enslaved in Babylonia believed that a lion would really lay down with a lamb and not make a dinner of it.
They are an expression of hope for the freedom of oppression.
Disernment is the key to understanding scripture.
I know you will disagree with this explaination because jws believe each Bible verse (especially in the OT) are to be taken literally and pertain to them personally.
Interestingly enough, they refuse to take John 6: 47-57 literally.
If you join them, you deny the Body and Blood of Christ.

 

[tommy4321]

catsrus:

Okay, I’ll bite. Since this one particular verse is so important to you…
Figuartive expression of a state of happiness. A dramatic (emphasis added) expression of universal paradise to lift the down trodden spirits of those in Babylonian exile who were miserable on a day to day basis. Expression of HOPE. Frequently used by the prophets of old to deal with the back sliding, stiff necked, oppressed chosen people.
Many Jewish prisoners of the Nazi regime took these verses and commuted them to a hope for a place in Palestine where they might live unoppressed and free from assault.
They are not to be taken literally anymore than the Jews enslaved in Babylonia believed that a lion would really lay down with a lamb and not make a dinner of it.
They are an expression of hope for the freedom of oppression.
Disernment is the key to understanding scripture.
I know you will disagree with this explaination because jws believe each Bible verse (especially in the OT) are to be taken literally and pertain to them personally.
Interestingly enough, they refuse to take John 6: 47-57 literally.
If you join them, you deny the Body and Blood of Christ.

Your right, I believe the Old Testament is very important. Read on to the nest verse Isaiah65:23 “They will not toll for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for distrubance, because they are the offspring made up of the blessed one of God and their descendants with them”.

This provides much hope of the New Earthl tommy

 

[catsrus]

Isaiah65:23 “They will not toll for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for distrubance, because they are the offspring made up of the blessed one of God and their descendants with them”.

Same explaination as I gave you above. Expression of hope to the downtrodden.
The Jews were toiling as slaves for a “government” not their own so were in effect toiling for nothing.
Common sense, or “reasoning” as jws like to call it.
As to John 6:, after knowing the truth of the Eucharist, how do you now “reason” that away? How do you deny the Body and Blood of Christ? That is the crux of Faith, not a few obscure scriptures that jws claim point to being all about them and their ruling an earth cleansed of every person that is not a jw, nor, for that matter, about a few money managers and a few renegade priests.
You are missing the forest and concentrating on only a few trees.

 

[tommy4321]

I’m glad you asked this one about the Eucharist as this is pretty important stuff. So lets start with a question. Say perhaps that a young couple is living together in sin, the subject we were just discussing, is it OK in the eyes of God to take the Eucharist? Is it OK for someone who comes to church a couple of times per month or year to take the Eucharist, is this OK with God?

We have the Bible to go to for this answer. 1 Corinthians 11:27 “Consequently, whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord “unworthingly” will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord”… Unworthingly means being in defilement of the Lord and living in sin. It says here they are “guilty”. So the defiled church member who receives the bread and blood is in defilement of God’s warning stated in 1 Corintians 11:27 and should pass on taking the blood and bread, like the Witnesses do. Jesus asked that we do this in memory of him and annually is the typical way that a memorial on the date you are celebrating seems accurate, like the Witnesses do. The rest pass the bread and blood who are not worthy and posses some defilement. All of their study is scripture based. Those who feel they are undefiled do take the bread and blood annually. Taking it weekly means 20% of a mass is spent reanacting the last supper.

Lets don’t just pass up either what we read in Isaiah that it only applied to Babyalonians of ancient times. These two chapters are DEFINATELY talking about Heaven and afterlife as stated here in Isaiah 65:17 “For here I am creating new heavens and a new Earth, and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they some up into the heart” This is clearly a prophecy in any Bible you read that these are future events of the New Heaven and the New Earth. It is not possible for a Catholic to truly answer what they feel about these passages about the New Heaven and New Earth as the beliefs have been when you die you simply go to Heaven and the 144,000 heavenly goverment established by Jesus to drive the evil one out, ruling with the priests, kings and holy ones are not recognized as Jesus’ form of his government that will replace the nation government we live under today that people die in war saying they are doing it for God. I know this is a hard concept to understand about Jesus’ rulership, but we must trust what is written throughout the Bible and not assume that some scripture is more important then other scriptures and write off these prophecies we read in both the OT and the NT in Rev. Chapter 19-21. They tie.

Lastly, Carol had mentioned about her ten year sentence and I now wanted to share a personal story in the next paragraph. First, I want to say that a 10 year disfellowshiping is not right and should not have happened. Whenever man is involved shortingcomings will be existant because man is not perfect, only Jesus is. One of our brothers has a daughter who was expelled from our congreation similar to how these types of things happened in synagogues during Jesus’ day. This is a temporary expellment and now that Carol told me of her story, I am somewhat radical and now going to see personally what is being done for this young lady to help her out and make an issue of it. Thanks Carol for sharing what you did with me. So far what I gather it is not a long expellment like yours, but they have me in their face about it and I will know more on Saturday about this expelling time frame issue we discussee and how it applies to our congregation.

Here’s my story. When I was 24 years old I lived with my wife prior to getting married. We were on holiday in Virginia City Nevada and attended a Catholic Mass on a Sunday morning. The elderly priest said that after mass they would being doing confessions. I was reluctant to go but did so because my girlfiend at the time, wanted to go. We went to the preist who was about 80 years old. He asked us one question first just like this "Are you having pre-marital sex? We said yes and he slammed the Parish door on us and told us to leave. This is true. I was bummed and it ruined the rest of our trip and we felt unworthy to attend mass after that for months. He essentially expelled us on pre-marital sex issues and it is not an issue with just one religion, it does happen elsewhere. Have a good day, tommy

 

[carol_marie]

Tommy,
Two things… first, regarding the Eucharist & partaking in an unworthy manner. You are correct - Catholics living in sin should not recieve the Eucharist… they are wrong in doing so. However, the Witnesses who don’t recieve the body & blood of Christ (and this is BY FAR the vast majority) do not believe they are unworthy (or sinful)… but rather, they don’t participate because they have been taught that they have NO HOPE of heaven. Communion is not FOR them… so it doesn’t matter if it’s celebrated daily, weekly, or once a year… they NEVER get to participate. Are you willing to give that up forever? And where in the Bible did Jesus ever say that it’s only for a select few? And did the early church restrict communion to only a select class? No. Even the early Witnesses didn’t restrict communion - they were all believed to be of the heavenly class. But somewhere down the road - that changed so now it’s restricted. If Jehovah wanted it that way - do you honestly believe He would’ve let over 1,900 years go by with EVERYONE doing it wrong???

Second, it’s terrible that the 80 year old Priest slammed the door on you when you tried to confess your sins. However, I am certain you could’ve gone up the road to a different Parish & another Priest would’ve treated you differently. With the Witnesses - I went to other elders… I wrote the governing body… they all said the same thing… Sorry… that’s too bad, but it’s up to the original elders from your Hall. There was no where else to go.

 

[tommy4321]

Hi:

Is wasn’t the taking of the Eucharist or what happened at one parish that drove us from the Catholic Church. Actually, we did feel somewaht blessed after the taking of the body and the blood. It was issues that is going on within the entire organization.

I can tell you did gain something from being a Witness, you call the true God, Jehovah, something others here won’t recognize.

Here is what we realized that made us raise our eyebrows and begin wondering we we were realling following the one true church.

We started hearing in the headlines that there was his 700 million settlement on clergy abuse all the time in the paper. When I sent in my resignation letter from the church it was followed by a letter from a Catholic organization that stated that 2% of clergy were involved in the scandal. This problem is huge in the Catholic church and it is unique to them because they have spent one billion dollars defending themselves and it has undressed the church. My letter I received went on to compare Peter being hypocritical in Antioch with how men were not perfect and the letter made me angry that prriest molestors were being compared to Pter, the Holy One. Real angry.

After leaving the church a documentary aired called “Our Fathers” in the first seen a young priest went upstairs with a young boy and was molesting him while they both recited the hail Mary. The little boy looked like my son and I wanted to get up off the couch and ram my head through the big screen TV to make the scene stop as it was so terribly disturbing to think what if that was my little oved one laying there.

We learned about the idols displayed in worship and how offending it is to God when an idol is used during worship. I saw first hand how the focus was on money working on the finance council and how there was what what was called “big donors” the pastor would refer to those that give him more money then others. I saw that if this was God’s one true organization, how could he then allow this to happen to little one who are weak? Yes, others like the Protastants have this problem and they too follow false teachings.

I found that the Witness have a strick code of conduct in that they don’t allow adults to be alone with ones of the opposite sex or child. That is comforting to me.

The issue of taking the Eurcharist was not something that drove us from the church. Blessing, tommy

 

[catsrus]

Say perhaps that a young couple is living together in sin, the subject we were just discussing, is it OK in the eyes of God to take the Eucharist?

No and as a 40 year Catholic, you know that.

Is it OK for someone who comes to church a couple of times per month or year to take the Eucharist, is this OK with God?

Not without the Sacrament of Reconciliation and as a 40 year Catholic, you know that also.

The rest pass the bread and blood who are not worthy and posses some defilement.

That is not why they pass it. Only those of the 144,000 are permitted to take it and whether they are of that class or not is determined by each person individually. More man-made interpratation of God’s Word.

Jesus asked that we do this in memory of him and annually is the typical way that a memorial on the date you are celebrating seems accurate, like the Witnesses do.

Jesus also said that the bread was his true flesh and the wine His true blood. You are eliminating the crux of the scriptures and once again, being completely literal - this time about the word memorial. I remember how hung up on words the jws are.

Taking it weekly means 20% of a mass is spent reanacting the last supper.

What is your point?; that Mass is too long?!?!

As to your story of having the window of the confessional slammed; why did you not seek out another priest? Priests are men too and are not infallible.
Tommy, your complaints against The Church are very personality based.
As far as a witness of each gender not being allowed to be alone with each other; that must be something new. Think about that. That was never an issue when I attended their meetings.
Please look into an objective view of the wt society.

 

[tommy4321]

Hi Catsrus:

Please excuse my typos from the last post I am transmitting this data outside via cell.

I don’t have a big ussue with the taking of the Eucharist except I believe it is for the class of people who are undefiled, which is most sinners. The Eucharist taking is not why I resigned from the church.

I don’t think my reason is personal or isolated to just me. I have Catholic friends (and frankly as I get older my friends are becoming more meaningless to me, the family is what is important) that have question their Catholic faith because of the clergy abuse scandal and it is NOT just isolated to me who is concerned about it.

Let me restate the issue that made me pull the plug. How can we trust that the Catholic organization is God’s true organization if they have allowed their leadership (2%+) to take advantage of our young helpless child and molest them. Doesn’t it bother you personally when you read these articicles. Last months issue of Catholic Voice had numerous articles on the settlements from the clergy scandal? Can you in good heart defend that type of behavor from your church leadership? It cause me to loose my faith in something that I was so convinced in.

We also saw that Cardinal Bernard Law received a promotion after trying the cover up the scandal that broke in Boston. Now I know the Protastants too have these issues. And please don’t tell me that Witnesses have this problem as I KNOW FOR A FACT the they do not have this HUGE 2%+ molestation statistic behind their leadership? This danger happened because Matthew 10 said not to call any religious leader a Father and that was ignored by the church. It allowed children to think that the priest had the authority to do what they did in the 60’s, 70’s,80’s, 90’s and even today.

So tell me honestly, do you feel OK with the conduct of these 2% of stated priest molestors deep in your heart or would you choose to defend their actions? This statistic is WAY higher then other groups. Tell me why the priest, I may be able to undertand construction workers? As my boy hit 8 years old trealizng it is not all of them, but enough of a chunck to create a percentage, we got out of Dodge City.

Cleary child molestation is an act of Satan and not an act of 2% of God’ leadership among his chosen organization.

These are my opinions only and I may sound somewhat stern here, but please realize this was the major issue that drove me and has driven other families away from the church by loosing trust in its leadership. Its cost the church a BILLION dollars, omey that comes out of collections that could be going to the poor and needy.

How do you feel about the molestation issues other then it is not so bad, the Protastants and others have similar problems?

 

[catsrus]

How do you feel about the molestation issues other then it is not so bad, the Protastants and others have similar problems?

Why would you think that I think that molestation is “not so bad”? These molestations took place 20-25 and more years ago and many of the men involved are dead, in jail or under indictment now.
You bring up Cardinal Law. Putting this mess into perspective, you must admit that 20-25 and more years ago, when these men were committing these horrors, it was believed that it was a psychological condition that could be cured. Cardinal Law acted in accordance with the belief of the time. Pope Benedict XVI is right now working on this problem and is tightening the standards under which a man is accepted into the seminary. Read some Catholic news.
Why do you continue to believe that NOT ONE jw has ever molested? You claim 6 million members. Whose eyes are closed?
And, as an aside, I know about jw abuse of children. I recall sitting in kingdom halls and see people come in with small children armed with sticks and paddles. I also recall babies in diapers being spanked during meetings and the screams. Just for being the inattentive babies that they were. I could only shudder while imagining what went on at home.
You want to discuss that or are you going to quote Proverbs 13:24 and justify the child abuse?
Screaming, beaten babies “pulled the plug” for me, among many other things.
If you’re ever interested, let me know. I’ll be glad to list them.

 

[catsrus]

It has just occured to me that we are way off topic.
If you want to start another thread about abuses, we’ll go there with it.
As far as what everlasting life means to me; it is the joy of the beatific vision. Only peace and love and happiness and giving praise to God for all eternity.

 

[tommy4321]

Hey Bro:

Funny were off topic here but the Eucharist topic was OK. I wouldn’t want to defend that one either. It IS the biggest issue that made me jump ship.

Sure you don’t want to take a shot, I’m sure the Moderator would be OK with just a little off topic…

P.S. I just saw you had a previous post to this. It was still the leadership of a group claiming to be God’s one true organization whether it was today or 20 years ago. The Witnesses are fine people and we read of no statistics or law suits that are widespread among the papers. And I do like what you said about devotion to God, Jehovah God. Take care, your brother in Christ, tommy

 

[carol_marie]

Hi Tommy,
Since you mentioned that one of the main reasons you left the Church was due to the sexual abuse - I did a quick google of “sexual abuse in the Jehovah’s Witness Organization” and unfortuntatly I found several articles that indicate that there are MANY cases of sexual abuse and cover up in that organization as well. Although it isn’t necessarily the elders doing the abuse, it is a problem in families and then covered up so as to not reflect badly on “Jehovah.”
The cover up problem was so widespread that a member of Bethel came forward and insisted that something be done. She was told to be silent or be disfellowshipped. It’s all in this article:

religioustolerance.org/witness7.htm

There were many more articles… here’s one more:

watchtowerinformationservice.org/childabuse.htm

Sexual abuse is a terrible crime. It is not however limited to any one religious group.

 

[tommy4321]

The problem has been bigger in the Catholic Church and MUCH more widespread and it has not been an issue of our leadership. I don’t really think that it can be argued that we haven’t read about it in the news.

2 Peter 3:16 tells about the fornication in the last days as well as wide scale disasters we are now seeing almost daily. Hopefully under this new system it will bring an end to all the pain and suffering that has plagued the human family.

I ran the same search for comparison so the two could be compared on an even scale below. I opened yours and it made me realize that there is some value to disfellowshipping that could have been one way or preventing the 100,000 incidents. 100,000 is a much bigger number then the handful cited.

boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/