Evidence for Design?

[tonyrey]

Natural science explains how our anatomy exists which is important while we are living.

Real Catholic education, not the current fluff in some places, explains our spiritual life while we are living.

Idea – Catholic ID advocates should promote all Catholic School events. They should contact parishioners about sending their children to Catholic Schools, etc. They should support Catholic educational outreach programs to Catholic adults.

ID advocates should support all evidence of God…

If you saw the devastating results of the lack of RE in the UK you would realise how the obsession with science leads to a spiritual desert… largely as the result of pressure from the Humanist Society which is conducting a ferocious campaign against any form of religious instruction in schools and colleges. Where Christians are a small minority they are far more likely to be victimised and even ridiculed…

 

[grannymh]

If you saw the devastating results of the lack of RE in the UK you would realise how the obsession with science leads to a spiritual desert… largely as the result of pressure from the Humanist Society which is conducting a ferocious campaign against any form of religious instruction in schools and colleges. Where Christians are a small minority they are far more likely to be victimised and even ridiculed…

Emphasis mine

This is why I said: “Catholic ID advocates should promote all Catholic School events. They should contact parishioners about sending their children to Catholic Schools, etc. They should support Catholic educational outreach programs to Catholic adults.”

In addition,
Catholics should volunteer in their parish’s religious education programs. Moaning is good for getting attention, but it has to be followed by action. Run a campaign for scholarships to good Catholic institutions beginning with kindergarden.

We are the evidence of God’s design for humanity.

 

[Al_Moritz]

Idea – Catholic ID advocates should promote all Catholic School events. They should contact parishioners about sending their children to Catholic Schools, etc. .

In America, quote:

(Interestingly, students who attended Catholic high schools typically have had the best education in evolution, probably because the Church has long held evolution to be compatible with Christian faith.)

(Great!, and that compared also to public schools in the US.)

From:

tcnj.edu/~magazine/magazine/spring2000/pages/creationist/creationist3.html

By the way, it is worth reading the entire article.

 

[grannymh]

In America, quote:

(Interestingly, students who attended Catholic high schools typically have had the best education in evolution, probably because the Church has long held evolution to be compatible with Christian faith.)

(Great!, and that over public schools in the US.)

From:

tcnj.edu/~magazine/magazine/spring2000/pages/creationist/creationist3.html

Hopefully, the Catholic scientific education includes development of evidence through methods and materials. Some logical analytical skills need to be included. With the present attack on monogenism coming from within the Catholic Church, I would hope that the students would learn the nitty-gritty of “population” evidence and see for themselves that it does not warrant an universal exclusion of Adam and Eve. While scientists can claim that Adam and Eve are improbable, the possibility still exists.

Of course the possibility of Adam and Eve exists because the Creator is not limited by the design of His creation.

When it comes to human nature per se, the spiritual soul can be presented as a fact in a scientific environment. Obviously, the Catholic doctrines regarding the spiritual soul would be taught in a religion class.

Students need to be taught the total design of human nature and not just its decomposing anatomy.

 

[reggieM]

Real Catholic education, not the current fluff in some places, explains our spiritual life while we are living.

I’m glad to see you add the highlighted point above.

Idea – Catholic ID advocates should promote all Catholic School events. They should contact parishioners about sending their children to Catholic Schools, etc. They should support Catholic educational outreach programs to Catholic adults.

This is a very good idea and I fully agree (with the proviso you added above).
Sadly, some Catholics do not think that there is a good reason for Catholic schools. They think that Catholicism is something that can be learned rather quickly, and there is no reason for children to study the Church’s teaching on God and creation – among many other things that comprise the Catholic worldview (history, philosophy, art, literature, spirituality, etc.).

 

[reggieM]

If you saw the devastating results of the lack of RE in the UK you would realise how the obsession with science leads to a spiritual desert… largely as the result of pressure from the Humanist Society which is conducting a ferocious campaign against any form of religious instruction in schools and colleges. Where Christians are a small minority they are far more likely to be victimised and even ridiculed…

Ridicule is a weapon that has been very successful in silencing and humiliating Christians on a number of topics. Mockery and ridicule are used very extensively by atheists and humanists – especially against the belief in God.

It is difficult enough for adults to face a barrage of ridicule, mockery and sneering – but for children, it’s even more devastating.

Science has an important role, but only within limits. What we’re seeing today in a growing movement is rightly called an “obsession” with science.

 

[reggieM]

Not if a thread is worth its salt! The desire to have evidence for Design curtailed is a good reason for letting it continue - especially when it has provided a rational basis for following the example of Jesus, has not been side-tracked or become unruly and is so popular it has been viewed more than 23,000 times…

… and we set a new record for number of posts in a thread on the Philosophy Forum.

 

[reggieM]

You could call it a case of undesigned design - which is obviously far less plausible than “designed undesign”. uch:

That is very good. We do have designed undesign in God’s creation. But undesigned design is the impossibility that we’re asked to believe in.

 

[reggieM]

Tonyrey and Reggie,

I am glad we have arrived at a better understanding with regard to positions on miracles.

While we disagree on how God designed things, we agree that God designed the universe and everything in it.

Here is a bit more on my position with respect to that:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7893029&postcount=523

Al – thanks again. Yes, that point of agreement is very important, and is much more significant than those areas where we disagree.

Interesting thoughts on your post you linked to also.

 

[buffalo]

Natural science explains how our anatomy exists which is important while we are living.

Real Catholic education, not the current fluff in some places, explains our spiritual life while we are living.

Idea – Catholic ID advocates should promote all Catholic School events. They should contact parishioners about sending their children to Catholic Schools, etc. They should support Catholic educational outreach programs to Catholic adults.

ID advocates should support all evidence of God…

I agree in principle here, but Catholic schools have a lot of corrective work to do in terms of Catholic Identity and real Catholic Teaching.

 

[buffalo]

More design - The Fingerprint of God

**The Fingerprint of God (part 2) **

 

[razredge]

Argumentum ad hominem! An appeal to one biochemist’s opinion on a philosophical issue.

It’s a scientific issue

razredge;8971111:

Your scepticism is inconsistent with one of the Church’s requirements for canonisation (two miracles). Do you think the Pope visited Lourdes just to pacify the faithful?

Maybe to satisfy the faithul?

And I always wonder why no truly spectacular miracles occur, it’s always some disease (with a known history of spontaneous remission) mysteriously going away, why can’t God heal a few amputees for once.

And i’m still waiting for your reports of current day resurrections.

 

[cho_pilo]

You have not made one positive statement in your post!

I did not see that as a requirement in the OP.

 

[razredge]

So you think God cannot think ahead far enough to see all the consequences of the laws of nature that He created, and all the coincidences to which they lead? God is impotent to get it right in the first ‘try’? He needs to accept and repair His screw-ups?

Indeed, it is blasphemy to suggest God is some kind of amateur who constantly needs to tinker with his creation.

The fact that God is a loving Father who constantly intervenes in every way possible to care for all His creatures and minimise their suffering

A mere assertion, from the evidence one could just as easily conclude that there is no God constantly intervening.

 

[grannymh]

I agree in principle here, but Catholic schools have a lot of corrective work to do in terms of Catholic Identity and real Catholic Teaching.

This is exactly why Catholics need to get involved.

 

[ricmat]

So you think God cannot think ahead far enough to see all the consequences of the laws of nature that He created, and all the coincidences to which they lead? God is impotent to get it right in the first ‘try’? He needs to accept and repair His screw-ups?

Random mutations + natural selection = another way of saying “try and try again.” (and hide His own involvement at the same time.)

If you believe that God got it right on the first try, then perhaps you should be a 6 day creationist Certainly that’s more impressive than “try and try again”. That’s where your argument leads.

 

[cho_pilo]

The DNA language is a good example of design.

DNA has no language, it is not a set of instructions, it is a template. It physically creates the proteins that carry out specific functions within the cell because of the proteins physical properties. DNA contains no information, it requires no translation, understanding or intelligence to create the systems of life.

 

[tonyrey]

DNA has no language, it is not a set of instructions, it is a template. It physically creates the proteins that carry out specific functions within the cell because of the proteins physical properties. DNA contains no information, it requires no translation, understanding or intelligence to create the systems of life.

“Complex organisms require two interrelated
levels of programming. The first involves
specifying their structural and functional
components (proteins and their derived
products). The second involves specifying
how these components are arrayed and
assembled into higher levels of organization
(cells and organs), together with the control
systems that manage their function, which
include components that act as environmental
sensors and relays.All of this** information**
must ultimately be **encoded **in the genome.”
ai.stanford.edu/~serafim/CS374_2006/papers/Mattick_NRG2004.pdf

It amounts to deciding whether

"A hierarchical organization of concepts (ontology) with
three organizing principles: molecular function, the tasks
done by individual gene products; biological process that
are accomplished by** ordered assemblies **of molecular
functions; and cellular components, subcellular
structures, locations and macromolecular complexes "

is the product of a series of** purposeless** events or Design…

 

[tonyrey]

It’s a scientific issue.

With philosophical implications.

Maybe to satisfy the faithul?

And I always wonder why no truly spectacular miracles occur, it’s always some disease (with a known history of spontaneous remission) mysteriously going away…

False!

, why can’t God heal a few amputees for once.

Hackneyed!

And i’m still waiting for your reports of current day resurrections.

Why don’t you write an article presenting your sceptical views for a Catholic or Christian publication? I’m sure everyone would be deeply impressed by your lack of faith…

 

[tonyrey]

This is exactly why Catholics need to get involved.

How do they get involved in non-Catholic schools when they are a small minority?