Evidence for Design?

[atheistgirl]

Does he believe in God?

No, he doesn’t believe in God.

From the practical point of view the materialist has no one to thank in good times and nothing to look forward to in bad times.

We thank those around us in good and bad times because those around us, family and friends, are there to pull us through the bad times and make the good times even better.

Life inevitably seems absurd and meaningless even if it isn’t!

Life does not seem the least bit absurd or meaningless.

Death is not a blessing but a curse because it separates those who love each other - not just for a few years but for all eternity.

Death is neither a blessing or a curse. It is simply death. Nothing more. Nothing less. We don’t have a problem with that.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

No, he doesn’t believe in God.

Has he ever given any reasons?

We thank those around us in good and bad times because those around us, family and friends, are there to pull us through the bad times and make the good times even better.

What about those who are left with no one? (Not necessarily in your family)

Life does not seem the least bit absurd or meaningless.

At the moment!

Death is neither a blessing or a curse. It is simply death. Nothing more. Nothing less. We don’t have a problem with that.

Have you ever been separated by death from some one you love deeply?

 

[atheistgirl]

Has he ever given any reasons?

We are all atheists, so no, the conversation doesnt come up.

What about those who are left with no one? (Not necessarily in your family)

That’s why we’re actively involved in programs that support such vulnerable people. I recognise not everyone has either family or friends for a variety of reasons. I recognise also many faith groups do fantastic work in outreach to such people.

At the moment!

No. Not at the moment. Life isnt the least bit absurd to us and never has been, going back as far as you like.

Have you ever been separated by death from some one you love deeply?

*My Father - the light of my life.

*3 Uncles I loved deeply.

*2 Aunts who were like sisters to me.

• My best friend in the whole world through an auto wreck.
• Another friend through Leukemia.
• Several dogs and horses who I loved with all my heart and who loved me and who I still miss to this day.

Sarah x

 

[reggieM]

George Lemaître, Catholic priest and originator of big bang theory, put it like this:

He (the Christian researcher) knows that not one thing in all creation has been done without God, but he knows also that God nowhere takes the place of his creatures. Omnipresent divine activity is everywhere essentially hidden. It never had to be a question of reducing the supreme Being to the rank of a scientific hypothesis.

What he means in the bolded text is “to some extent” hidden.

God’s activity is essentially hidden – but at times it is revealed.

One does not reduce the existence of Jesus Christ by using the human science of history to understand His Life.

We know also that Jesus did, indeed, take the place of His creatures – in order that we could all become partakers of divine nature.

In any case, you seem to give an affirmative to the question I posed …

Why do you think it’s impossible that the image has a supernatural origin? Would you close your mind to a real possibility, even though you truly don’t know what caused it?

… namely, that you think it is impossible that the image on the Shroud has a supernatural origin.

Again, how did you determine that this was an impossibility?

Would you close your mind to a real possibility, even though you don’t know what caused the image?

 

[reggieM]

*My Father - the light of my life.

*3 Uncles I loved deeply.

*2 Aunts who were like sisters to me.

• My best friend in the whole world through an auto wreck.
• Another friend through Leukemia.
• Several dogs and horses who I loved with all my heart and who loved me and who I still miss to this day.

Sarah x

The love that you have for others is a desire - and it can be strong. You desire their happiness, or to be with them, or to show your love for them.

If you miss your loved ones, then something is not complete. You have a desire which nothing on earth can fill.

 

[atheistgirl]

The love that you have for others is a desire - and it can be strong.

It is strong, but it’s not a ‘desire’ - I do actually feel it and show it. It’s real.

You desire their happiness, or to be with them, or to show your love for them.

Indeed. I want them to be happy, I want to be around them and I want them around me, and I do show my love for them in all sorts of ways every day.

If you miss your loved ones,

I do.

then something is not complete.

No, there is nothing incomplete. It is perfectly natural and normal to miss someone you know, or work with, or lived with, or who was a friend, or who you loved. The fact they die, and you carry on living with their memories and in my fathers case, carrying his genes, does not mean anything is incompete. It is an exchange we all know we will have to make at some point and it is part of nature, part of living, part of life. My father for example lives on in me, our collective memories of him, even in the genes of my kids. He is dead, but he has left a beautiful legacy in exchange for his life.

I accept death with no reservations or fear. It is what it is. It is a part of living. We can not know when out time is up, which is why I have always tried to live by, and raised by family to, never waste a moment of their life.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

Has he ever given any reasons?

So it is taken for granted that God doesn’t exist?

What about those who are left with no one? (Not necessarily in your family)

That’s why we’re actively involved in programs that support such vulnerable people. I recognise not everyone has either family or friends for a variety of reasons. I recognise also many faith groups do fantastic work in outreach to such people.

Is it reasonable to leave such people without any hope that they will ever see their loved ones again?

At the moment!

No. Not at the moment. Life isnt the least bit absurd to us and never has been, going back as far as you like.

I had going forward in mind! The older we become the fewer illusions we have - and fewer distractions from the fact of mortality.

Have you ever been separated by death from some one you love deeply?

*My Father - the light of my life.

*3 Uncles I loved deeply.

*2 Aunts who were like sisters to me.

• My best friend in the whole world through an auto wreck.
• Another friend through Leukemia.
• Several dogs and horses who I loved with all my heart and who loved me and who I still miss to this day.

And even though you are totally convinced you will never see them again you feel no pang of regret or frustration?

 

[atheistgirl]

So it is taken for granted that God doesn’t exist?

Yes.

Is it reasonable to leave such people without any hope that they will ever see their loved ones again?

One of the reasons I am not anti any kind of belief, is I understand this urge in people to feel this is not all there is. Religion and faith offers people a hope that this life is not all there is, and they can live on for an eternity. Some people need this. I don’t. So I have never ever tried to convince someone of faith they are misguided, and nor would I. I have always tried to be as respectful as possible to all faiths and beliefs. But for me personally, I am perfectly happy knowing this is what we have, so we better make it count!

I had going forward in mind! The older we become the fewer illusions we have - and fewer distractions from the fact of mortality.

I dont think there is anything to fear from death. It’s just another part of life. It will happen, and there is nothing to fear. And nothing we can do about it either.

And even though you are totally convinced you will never see them again you feel no pang of regret or frustration?

I accept and understand. There is nothing I can do about it and nothing I can do to fight it or change it. Not to be flippant, it’s like if I got frustrated or regretful because I’m not five foot six. I’m not. And nothing will ever change that.

So I prefer to let them live on in memory, writing, song, pictures, film, and, in the case of family, in the very genetic make-up passed down. I would be as frustrated as heck if I spent my mental and physical energy fighting the reality of death. But when you understand and accept it as part of living, of course you miss people, of course you would have liked longer, of course you may depending on the circumstances feel life can be so unfair at times, but you dont get frustrated. It simply is what it is. The people you love and care about dont ‘die’ in the sense they live on through you and the legacy they leave behind.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

So it is taken for granted that God doesn’t exist?

Even though you cannot prove it conclusively…

Is it reasonable to leave such people without any hope that they will ever see their loved ones again?

One of the reasons I am not anti any kind of belief, is I understand this urge in people to feel this is not all there is. Religion and faith offers people a hope that this life is not all there is, and they can live on for an eternity. Some people need this. I don’t. So I have never ever tried to convince someone of faith they are misguided, and nor would I. I have always tried to be as respectful as possible to all faiths and beliefs. But for me personally, I am perfectly happy knowing this is what we have, so we better make it count!

“knowing” is very dogmatic!

I had going forward in mind! The older we become the fewer illusions we have - and fewer distractions from the fact of mortality.

I dont think there is anything to fear from death. It’s just another part of life. It will happen, and there is nothing to fear. And nothing we can do about it either.

It is a fact the significance of which is highly controversial.

And even though you are totally convinced you will never see them again you feel no pang of regret or frustration?

I accept and understand. There is nothing I can do about it and nothing I can do to fight it or change it. Not to be flippant, it’s like if I got frustrated or regretful because I’m not five foot six. I’m not. And nothing will ever change that.

There is an important difference between resignation and fatalism.

So I prefer to let them live on in memory, writing, song, pictures, film, and, in the case of family, in the very genetic make-up passed down. I would be as frustrated as heck if I spent my mental and physical energy fighting the reality of death. But when you understand and accept it as part of living, of course you miss people, of course you would have liked longer, of course you may depending on the circumstances feel life can be so unfair at times, but you dont get frustrated. It simply is what it is. The people you love and care about dont ‘die’ in the sense they live on through you and the legacy they leave behind.

Life is extremely unfair to the point of absurdity **if **this is the only life there is. Albert Camus called it “le supreme abus”…

 

[atheistgirl]

Even though you cannot prove it conclusively…

My response will take us firmly into a discussion of atheism which is banned, and I fully respect that ruling, so I think it’s best just leave it there.

“knowing” is very dogmatic!

Well, I can know we definately have this life. I dont and cant know there is another. So I work with what I know.

There is an important difference between resignation and fatalism.

I dont think it’s remotely fatalistic to accept the fact of death. It just is what it is and is a part of life.

Life is extremely unfair to the point of absurdity **if **this is the only life there is. Albert Camus called it “le supreme abus”…

Like I said before I find nothing absurd about life. I would however, find life absurd, if I thought there was a higher being who was all powerful, merciful, kind and loving, and who still let my best friend die in horrific agony in a horrific car wreck, alone, over a period of several hours, leaving two young children behind.

But if I remove this all powerful, all caring, all merciful, all loving being, I can understand that accidents happen, and sometimes they are horrific. It’s tragic and regretable and breaks ones heart, but it is just a fact of life.

Sarah x

 

[buffalo]

Getting back to the design discussion:

A while back I posted on the Genetic Piano here.

Now we have the National Geographic using the same language:

If you think of our DNA as an immense piano keyboard and our genes as keys – each key symbolizing a segment of DNA responsible for a particular note, or trait, and all the keys combining to make us who we are – then epigenetic processes determine when and how each key can be struck, changing the tune being played. One way the study of epigenetics is revolutionizing our understanding of biology is by revealing a mechanism by which the environment directly impacts genes. Studies of animals, for example, have shown that when a rat experiences stress during pregnancy, it can cause epigenetic changes in a fetus that lead to behavioral problems as the rodent grows up. Other epige*netic changes appear to occur randomly – throwing a monkey wrench into the engine of nature versus nurture. Still other epigenetic processes are normal, such as those that guide embryonic cells as they become heart, brain, or liver cells, for example.

 

[grannymh]

Because I have this one life, so I try and make every moment matter, and derive as much happiness as I can from it.

I also like others to be happy, so I’m very actively involved in local politics and charity/voluntary works through which I try and do my little bit.

I like to think for the time I was here, not just me and my family, but others, including animals and gthe environment we all have to share, also benefited from the things I did and the person I am.

Happiness is wonderful. I love to spread it where ever I can

Sarah x

**Buffalo **-- I hope you understand. This post was promised and I don’t like to break my promise.

In a way, understanding one’s own nature as an exceptional design is evidence for God. I often wish that I.D. could address that. Now I understand that I.D. is based in science which is limited to the material realm.

---

I think this is a very good answer to the question “You desire to be blissfully happy? Why?”

I consider this a good answer because it reflects some of the deeper aspects of human nature. Being a person is basically not dependent on our worldview. In other words, our human nature is both spiritual and material whether we believe in God or not believe.

I read into your words the spiritual aspect of being able to freely give oneself to others through social or societal responsibility plus charity/voluntary works. I have no doubt that you treat your family, friends, and strangers you come in contact with love.
I like the reference to animals. I have the sense that you are a person who understands yourself. Self-knowledge and then acting upon it in actions beneficial to others is indicative of a spiritual soul.

Practically speaking, there are many people like you who have faith in God and use that faith as a basis for their actions.

The main reason your answer appeals to me is that it reflects a good standard of living.

Of course, I wish you would come to a belief in God. You don’t need some fancy scientific proof. Any type of reasoning can work, even if it is on the silly side. For the time being, I wish you well in what you are doing.

You signature says you will ask questions. I will try to answer them. I have not read all your new posts because it was important to me to answer this one first while both my eyes were open. I did spot a reference to your best friend who died in horrific agony in a horrific car wreck, alone, over a period of several hours, leaving two young children behind. I realize that talking about this can be painful. But since so often, this type of tragedy can turn one away from God, maybe I can give you a different perspective. Maybe not. It is up to you if you want to talk.

I did see Buffalo’s post about getting back to the topic about evidence for design. So perhaps you can PM me. Or else, you can read some of the other threads about God. Or maybe God will come back into the discussion on design.

---

**Buffalo **I am back on topic.

I believe that human nature is the very best evidence for design. Since science is limited to the anatomy, there must be another way to see the spiritual soul as the best evidence for God.

 

[inocente]

… namely, that you think it is impossible that the image on the Shroud has a supernatural origin.

Again, how did you determine that this was an impossibility?

Would you close your mind to a real possibility, even though you don’t know what caused the image?

In Baptist circles (at least my Baptist circles) the topic of relics never comes up and we’re not too bothered about miracles either. They just aren’t important to us.

There have been many studies of the Turin Shroud with contradictory results, and the latest study itself says it hasn’t resolved the mystery. On balance I tend to be cynical (I don’t believe there’s a UFO at Roswell either), but in this case, as I don’t personally question whether Jesus existed in history, it’s not important to me either way.

I do think (getting back to design) that trying to find God in objects is looking in the wrong place – 1 Cor 1:18-31.

 

[tonyrey]

Even though you cannot prove it conclusively…

Design is not directly concerned with the existence of God - and certainly not with atheism. You believe there is no** reason** why anything exists.

“knowing” is very dogmatic!

Well, I can know we definitely have this life. I dont and cant know there is another. So I work with what I know.

Do you base your life solely on what you know? On what you detect with your senses

There is an important difference between resignation and fatalism.

I dont think it’s remotely fatalistic to accept the fact of death. It just is what it is and is a part of life.

It’s fatalism to believe life is ultimately accidental and purposeless.

Life is extremely unfair to the point of absurdity **if **

this is the only life there is. Albert Camus called it “le supreme abus”…
Like I said before I find nothing absurd about life. I would however, find life absurd, if I thought there was a higher being who was all powerful, merciful, kind and loving, and who still let my best friend die in horrific agony in a horrific car wreck, alone, over a period of several hours, leaving two young children behind.

But if I remove this all powerful, all caring, all merciful, all loving being, I can understand that accidents happen, and sometimes they are horrific. It’s tragic and regrettable and breaks ones heart, but it is just a fact of life.

Why should accidents demonstrate that everything is an accident? How could every accident be prevented without undermining the laws of nature?

 

[atheistgirl]

You believe there is no** reason** why anything exists.

Other than an accident of another banned topic, no, I dont.

Do you base your life solely on what you know? On what you detect with your senses

A combination of what I know and can detect, what Ive had confirmed through life and living and what I trust to be thoroughly and dispassionately and scientifically investigated.

It’s fatalism to believe life is ultimately accidental and purposeless.

Ok well if that’s how you’re using the term, then it applies to me.

How could** every** accident be prevented without undermining the laws of nature?

They couldn’t. But it makes more sense to me to say accidents happen, and all outcomes are random, than to try and say accidents happy, but occasionally a supernatural being will directly intervene and change the random outcome. This avoids the futile mental gymnastics required to try and explain why hundreds died and one ‘chosen’ one didnt in a natural disaster for example, which becomes hailed as a ‘miracle’.

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

You believe there is no* reason***

Yet you give reasons for what you believe and how you live! It would be more consistent to believe you only** imagine** you have reasons…

Do you base your life solely on what you know

? On what you detect with your senses A combination of what I know and can detect, what Ive had confirmed through life and living and what I trust to be thoroughly and dispassionately and scientifically investigated.

In other words you trust your power of reason even though it has an irrational origin…

It’s fatalism to believe life is ultimately accidental and purposeless.

Ok well if that’s how you’re using the term, then it applies to me.

It also implies that all your beliefs are beyond your control.

How could** every**

accident be prevented without undermining the laws of nature? They couldn’t. But it makes more sense to me to say accidents happen, and all outcomes are random, than to try and say accidents happy, but occasionally a supernatural being will directly intervene and change the random outcome. This avoids the futile mental gymnastics required to try and explain why hundreds died and one ‘chosen’ one didnt in a natural disaster for example, which becomes hailed as a ‘miracle’.

If **all **outcomes are random so are your “futile mental gymnastics” - and **all **your conclusions are worthless…

Sparks in the dark don’t illuminate anything - not even themselves!

 

[atheistgirl]

Sparks in the dark don’t illuminate anything - not even themselves!

I love the sparks in the night and the sound of the wood cracking and the glow of the embers.

Pure bliss.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Yet you give reasons for what you believe and how you live!

Of course. It’s not that difficult to understand really.

It would be more consistent to believe you only** imagine** you have reasons…

No it wouldnt.

In other words you trust your power of reason even though it has an irrational origin…

It doesnt and I do because I see the reality of the outcomes of it’s application.

It also implies that all your beliefs are beyond your control.

To you maybe, not to me.

If **all **outcomes are random so are your “futile mental gymnastics” - and **all **your conclusions are worthless…

I dont engage in futile mental gymnastics.

Sparks in the dark don’t illuminate anything - not even themselves!

See previous. I love the sparks of the night.

Sarah x

 

[inocente]

I love the sparks in the night and the sound of the wood cracking and the glow of the embers.

We have a wood burner, but previous years round about now I’d also be lighting lovely big bonfires of almond cuttings all over the farm. This year the guys pruning the trees crushed the cuttings instead to make a “yellow brick road” which looked pretty for a while, but I miss the bonfires. Going green has its downsides.

 

[inocente]

Why should accidents demonstrate that everything is an accident? How could every accident be prevented without undermining the laws of nature?

Why is it more rational or better to say some things don’t have a purpose and others do, and then have to work out which is which, rather than treating everything the same, i.e. all things have no purpose or all things have purpose?