Evidence that God Exists

[Ammonius_Saccus]

If you know the truth, you don’t have to. It would be impossible to unless by the help of God, which is possible.

That reasoning is circular. You know that it is the truth because you know it is the truth.

 

[Disciple87]

The problem I have is with the word proof. If are just using the word proof in the everyday sort of way I would say that it is proof. But absolute proof is for mathematics or logic.

Then what are you looking for? Truth?

If you stood with Jesus 2,000 years ago and listened to what He said and at least saw all of these things:

Raise people from the dead, cure the blind, diseased, crippled, mentally handicapped, loved and showed mercy and offered friendship to all. Walk on water and calm a massive storm. Saw Him beaten and tortured for what He claimed to be, you seeing and knowing the truth. Then Him hanging on a cross and still forgiving all of those who did this to Him. Hearing everything He was saying on the cross, then died. See Him speared then a violent rapid storm comes and an earthquake. See Him placed in His tomb. Run away in fear of what might happen to you. Have Him appear to you many times and touch Him, put your hand in His side and on His hands and feet. Listen to Him talk on what you need to do. Then be standing with a crowd of more than 500 people watching Him ascend into Heaven.

Is that not proof that God exists, isnt that truth? (If you were there?) If you were not there would the truth change, or would it be more difficult to believe? I can tell you that on the final days before Jesus ascended into Heaven, He told us He will give us something just as good. The Holy Spirit, the comforter. His precense.

John 14:16-19 “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever. The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.”

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

Then what are you looking for? Truth?

I am looking for evidence that God exists. I think we are just getting caught up in semantics.

If you stood with Jesus 2,000 years ago and listened to what He said and at least saw all of these things:

Raise people from the dead, cure the blind, diseased, crippled, mentally handicapped, loved and showed mercy and offered friendship to all. Walk on water and calm a massive storm. Saw Him beaten and tortured for what He claimed to be, you seeing and knowing the truth. Then Him hanging on a cross and still forgiving all of those who did this to Him. Hearing everything He was saying on the cross, then died. See Him speared then a violent rapid storm comes and an earthquake. See Him placed in His tomb. Run away in fear of what might happen to you. Have Him appear to you many times and touch Him, put your hand in His side and on His hands and feet. Listen to Him talk on what you need to do. Then be standing with a crowd of more than 500 people watching Him ascend into Heaven.

Is that not proof that God exists, isnt that truth? (If you were there?) If you were not there would the truth change, or would it be more difficult to believe? I can tell you that on the final days before Jesus ascended into Heaven, He told us He will give us something just as good. The Holy Spirit, the comforter. His precense.

I have already that would be enough evidence. However, we do not know that all those things happened.

 

[Disciple87]

I have already that would be enough evidence. However, we do not know that all those things happened.

I wish I was there when all of that happened, it would have been amazing. Your right, I don’t have evidence to support that those things happened. All there is are the testimonies of others who were there, the Word of God and the conviction inside of me. You have to find out yourself if those things happened. Becasue if they didn’t Christ had not risen and we would still be in our sins. Our faith would be in vain and empty and all those that have faith in Christ and fall asleep will not have life.

 

[Equus_Pallidus]

I would be interested to hear how from the two simple premises that Jesus existed as historical figure and was crucified and whipped that we can know if there is a God.

OK

Since you accept the premise let’s advance.

Isaiah 53: The greatest of the prophets appeared at a critical moment of Israel’s history. The second half of the eighth century B.C .

4 Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed.
6 We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.
7 Though he was harshly treated, he submitted and opened not his mouth; Like a lamb led to the slaughter or a sheep before the shearers, he was silent and opened not his mouth.
8 Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away, and who would have thought any more of his destiny? When he was cut off from the land of the living, and smitten for the sin of his people,
9A grave was assigned him among the wicked and a burial place with evildoers, Though he had done no wrong nor spoken any falsehood.
10 (But the LORD was pleased to crush him in infirmity.) If he gives his life as an offering for sin, he shall see his descendants in a long life, and the will of the LORD shall be accomplished through him.
11 Because of his affliction he shall see the light in fullness of days; Through his suffering, my servant shall justify many, and their guilt he shall bear.
12 Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.

Sounds like the Gospel stories of being whipped, crucified for the salvation of many. 800 years before it took place, pretty detailed if you ask me.

Psalm 22: there is no sure way of dating any psalm. Some are pre-exilic (before 587), and others are post-exilic (after 539), but not as late as the Maccabean period (ca. 165).

2 My God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Why so far from my call for help, from my cries of anguish?

Matthew 27:46 - And about three o’clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

13 Many bulls surround me; fierce bulls of Bashan encircle me.
14They open their mouths against me, lions that rend and roar.

John 19 - 6 When the chief priests and the guards saw him they cried out, “Crucify him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves and crucify him. I find no guilt in him.” 7 The Jews answered, “We have a law, and according to that law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.”

15 Like water my life drains away; all my bones grow soft. My heart has become like wax, it melts away within me.
16 5 As dry as a potsherd is my throat; my tongue sticks to my palate; you lay me in the dust of death.

John19:28 - After this, aware that everything was now finished, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I thirst.”

17 Many dogs surround me; a pack of evildoers closes in on me. So wasted are my hands and feet
18 that I can count all my bones. They stare at me and gloat;
19 they divide my garments among them; for my clothing they cast lots.

Matthew 27:35 - After they had crucified him, they divided his garments by casting lots;

28 All the ends of the earth will worship and turn to the LORD; All the families of nations will bow low before you.
29 For kingship belongs to the LORD, the ruler over the nations.
30 All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; All who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage.
31 And I will live for the LORD; my descendants will serve you.
32 The generation to come will be told of the Lord, that they may proclaim to a people yet unborn the deliverance you have brought.

Is this not true of Jesus today?

Conclusion: The odds are astronomically improbable that these two different writers, hundreds of years apart and hundred of years before, who never saw each others writing would describe the crucifixion in detail of the Gospel accounts; and they wrote these things before crucifixion was invented.

One man born in a narrow window could fulfill these prophecies and dozens more without divine inspiration puts you on the wrong end of the odds. I could spend weeks putting together other prophecies like these and not get them all.

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

I wish I was there when all of that happened, it would have been amazing. Your right, I don’t have evidence to support that those things happened. All there is are the testimonies of others who were there, the Word of God and the conviction inside of me. You have to find out yourself if those things happened. Becasue if they didn’t Christ had not risen and we would still be in our sins. Our faith would be in vain and empty and all those that have faith in Christ and fall asleep will not have life.

So, do you know if those things are true or do you just hope they are true? If you know, how?

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

Conclusion: The odds are astronomically improbable that these two different writers, hundreds of years apart and hundred of years before, who never saw each others writing would describe the crucifixion in detail of the Gospel accounts; and they wrote these things before crucifixion was invented.

One man born in a narrow window could fulfill these prophecies and dozens more without divine inspiration puts you on the wrong end of the odds. I could spend weeks putting together other prophecies like these and not get them all.

How do you know if the Gospel writers were aware or unaware of the writings in the Tanakh?

 

[Disciple87]

So, do you know if those things are true or do you just hope they are true? If you know, how?

I know. I know because of the precense of Christ in me. It is something indescribable. I have a vision of Him as well, I can feel Him in me. Even before I started looking at the Bible I felt Him in me becasue of the faith I had begun to have. When I saw the passages that said

John 14:16-19 “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever. The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.”

When I was younger I never had strong faith until one day I just began to pray. I prayed not really thinking much about it just in a hoping way. Then one day I was going to church, thinking about heaven. I though In my mind, where is light in heaven? There isnt a sun is there? I just though about it and it seemed dumb to me. Then words almost exactly the same, i mean exactly, came to my head:

Isaiah 60:19-20 “The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.”

At that moment I felt the presence, It was a rush and you could not ignore it. I felt new, I felt clean and light and free and truth. I knew it was the presence of God. I just knew, it was a fact a law it was. When I arrived at church I was still stunned at the event I sat in my seat in awe. But then when it was time for the reading, it was Isaiah 60:19-20. Now this just gave me a smile on my face and from this event on I havent been the same. Christ has consumed my life and I am greatful.

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

I know. I know because of the precense of Christ in me. It is something indescribable. I have a vision of Him as well, I can feel Him in me. Even before I started looking at the Bible I felt Him in me becasue of the faith I had begun to have. When I saw the passages that said

John 14:16-19 “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever. The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.”

When I was younger I never had strong faith until one day I just began to pray. I prayed not really thinking much about it just in a hoping way. Then one day I was going to church, thinking about heaven. I though In my mind, where is light in heaven? There isnt a sun is there? I just though about it and it seemed dumb to me. Then words almost exactly the same, i mean exactly, came to my head:

Isaiah 60:19-20 “The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end.”

At that moment I felt the presence, It was a rush and you could not ignore it. I felt new, I felt clean and light and free and truth. I knew it was the presence of God. I just knew, it was a fact a law it was. When I arrived at church I was still stunned at the event I sat in my seat in awe. But then when it was time for the reading, it was Isaiah 60:19-20. Now this just gave me a smile on my face and from this event on I havent been the same. Christ has consumed my life and I am greatful.

So you know because you know? Or is there more to it? How do you know? How do you know Christ is inside you? Just because you know it?

You realize that other people have experiences that just a strong as yours that communicate “truths” are mutually exclusive to yours. (These experiences are had my Mormons, Muslims, atheists, etc) They hold their beliefs just as strongly as you do. What makes your experience true and theirs false? If your answer is along the lines of I accept them because they are mine, do you a have relativist view of the truth? Do you accept your experiences as evidence for an objective fact about the world or just as support for a subjective belief?

 

[Disciple87]

So you know because you know? Or is there more to it? How do you know? How do you know Christ is inside you? Just because you know it?

You realize that other people have experiences that just a strong as yours that communicate “truths” are mutually exclusive to yours. (These experiences are had my Mormons, Muslims, atheists, etc) They hold their beliefs just as strongly as you do. What makes your experience true and theirs false? If your answer is along the lines of I accept them because they are mine, do you a have relativist view of the truth? Do you accept your experiences as evidence for an objective fact about the world or just as support for a subjective belief?

I know because of what God has done for me. I don’t know becasue I know, I cannot know on my own but from God who has told me and showed me. I have opened my ears to Him and have been told the truth. Mine are not true because they are my truths, they are everyones truth. There is only one truth. People may say that I am lying, but if they knew who I was, they would know this is not the case. I don’t tell anyone about this, only a couple times on forums like this. What I feel called to do from this is to testify to the truth and be a fisher of men. So I guess you could say this is only strong evidence for me, since no one else has experienced what I have.

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

I know because of what God has done for me. I don’t know becasue I know, I cannot know on my own but from God who has told me and showed me. I have opened my ears to Him and have been told the truth. Mine are not true because they are my truths, they are everyones truth. There is only one truth. People may say that I am lying, but if they knew who I was, they would know this is not the case. I don’t tell anyone about this, only a couple times on forums like this. What I feel called to do from this is to testify to the truth and be a fisher of men. So I guess you could say this is only strong evidence for me, since no one else has experienced what I have.

So everyone who claims to have experiences that are mutually exclusive to your experiences are either liars and/or wrong?

 

[Disciple87]

So everyone who claims to have experiences that are mutually exclusive to your experiences are either liars and/or wrong?

If they’re not of the Lord, then yes. But I wouldn’t consider them liars, just wrong. I must be the light of Christ. I must be His feet and spread the word of truth to them. He handed this task down to all of His followers. If all the others see His people doing great works in His name, they will recognize the truth. They will in the way we act and in the words of Jesus Christ.

 

[Valke2]

Then what are you looking for? Truth?

If you stood with Jesus 2,000 years ago and listened to what He said and at least saw all of these things:

Raise people from the dead, cure the blind, diseased, crippled, mentally handicapped, loved and showed mercy and offered friendship to all. Walk on water and calm a massive storm. Saw Him beaten and tortured for what He claimed to be, you seeing and knowing the truth. Then Him hanging on a cross and still forgiving all of those who did this to Him. Hearing everything He was saying on the cross, then died. See Him speared then a violent rapid storm comes and an earthquake. See Him placed in His tomb. Run away in fear of what might happen to you. Have Him appear to you many times and touch Him, put your hand in His side and on His hands and feet. Listen to Him talk on what you need to do. Then be standing with a crowd of more than 500 people watching Him ascend into Heaven.

Is that not proof that God exists, isnt that truth? (If you were there?) If you were not there would the truth change, or would it be more difficult to believe? I can tell you that on the final days before Jesus ascended into Heaven, He told us He will give us something just as good. The Holy Spirit, the comforter. His precense.

John 14:16-19 “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever. The Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.”

I don’t think that would prove the existience of an eternal, all knowing God. Now if he took our people out of Egypt, parted the seas, descended upon a mounatian in a cloud of glory, and revealed Himself to a nation, giving them His Torah to keep for all eternity, provided us with manna from heaven for 40 years, struck fear in the hearts of our enemies, followed the people of Israel in the desert for 40 years, and had His glory dwell with them each night, that would be enough.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Ammonius

So everyone who claims to have experiences that are mutually exclusive to your experiences are either liars and/or wrong?

Now you have surely painted yourself into a corner. Would you say that everyone whose experiences differ from yours are either liars and/or wrong?

 

[Equus_Pallidus]

How do you know if the Gospel writers were aware or unaware of the writings in the Tanakh?

God planned on sceptics as yourself, a disengenious one at that. You should be aware that the Gospels were written by 4 seperate people in seperate locations none seeing the other, and virtually everyone had written the same account.

The fact is you refuse see, because you could have figured that out by yourself by reading the introduction to each of the Gospels. That makes you disengenious, not the Gospel writers as you claim.

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

You should be aware that the Gospels were written by 4 seperate people in seperate locations none seeing the other, and virtually everyone had written the same account.

Are you aware that your account of the writing of the Gospels is at odds with views of scholars?

I notice you did not address the question I presented to you.

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

Now you have surely painted yourself into a corner. Would you say that everyone whose experiences differ from yours are either liars and/or wrong?

I have not painted myself into that corner. I have stated that repeatedly that God could exist.

My position is that the belief that God does exist is not supported by the evidence and thus cannot be justified. (I have also stated the same is true of the belief that God does not exist.) As yet, nobody has presented the evidence. Anyone who claims that God does exist as an objective fact has the burden of presenting the evidence that establishes this fact.

 

[Disciple87]

I don’t think that would prove the existience of an eternal, all knowing God. Now if he took our people out of Egypt, parted the seas, descended upon a mounatian in a cloud of glory, and revealed Himself to a nation, giving them His Torah to keep for all eternity, provided us with manna from heaven for 40 years, struck fear in the hearts of our enemies, followed the people of Israel in the desert for 40 years, and had His glory dwell with them each night, that would be enough.

God’s greatest truth and proof was when He came down from Heaven and visited His people. Who would you think Jesus Christ was when He said and did all of these things? Would you say He might be God, after seeing Him nailed to the cross and rise from the dead, listen to Him speak and know Him and See Him ascend into Heaven. Not to mentoin you would be seeing the prophesy being fulfilled foretold in the OT with detail.

 

[San_Patricio]

I am not unwilling to look at logical proofs. But you have to admit that these to not establish the actual existence of God, but only the possibility. There are many things at are logically possible but that do not in fact exist.

The sort of “proof” that you are seeking is beyond the current abilities of human intellect and understanding. It’s like asking a slug to prove the existence of humanity.

If you take away the intellect and a critical analysis of the evidence for the actual existence aren’t you just going to pick the the logically possible position that you desire to be true? If you are not going to look at the matter critically, don’t you have to say that the atheist, the Muslim, and the Catholic are all equally justified in their beliefs since that are all logically possible. Aren’t you endorsing a form of relativism in regard to the positions that individuals should find justified?

You’re partially right here on two counts. We should indeed use our intellect and reason to come to a better understanding of God, the world He made for us, and our relationship with Him. That doesn’t mean that we are only choosing the postion that we “desire to be true”.

As to other religions, the Catholic Church recognises that there is some truth in many of them, just not the fullness as revealed by Christ and promulgated by the Church He established.

And no, it’s not relativism. If you want to make that claim, I’ll have to ask that you give specific examples of how you think it is.

 

[Ammonius_Saccus]

The sort of “proof” that you are seeking is beyond the current abilities of human intellect and understanding. It’s like asking a slug to prove the existence of humanity.

I didn’t say proof. I said evidence.

And no, it’s not relativism. If you want to make that claim, I’ll have to ask that you give specific examples of how you think it is.

Ok, if it is not relativistic (subjective), what is the objective basis of your belief that God exists?