Evolution and Creationism

[Freddy]

Michaelangelo:

Techno2000:

Nothing like that is happening now in the real world.

So no mutations happens any longer?

Yes, two headed goats happens.

Good point. And most definitely a distinct advantage there. I mean two heads are always better than one. It could eat twice as much for example. The fact that we don’t have herds of bi-cranial bovidae darkening the great plains blows the theory of evolution right out of the window.

 

[Noose001]

physical anthropology and molecular biology combine to make a convincing case for the origin of the human species in Africa about 150,000

Compelling to you.

 

[Noose001]

I have no idea

This is a good idea.

 

[rossum]

Nothing like that is happening now in the real world.

Wrong. Humans with a slightly better genetic resistance to COVID-19 are at a slightly lower risk of dying. That mutation, which was at best neutral last year is now beneficial because the environment has changed. That mutation will increase in frequency in the population because it is beneficial.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000:

Nothing like that is happening now in the real world.

Wrong. Humans with a slightly better genetic resistance to COVID-19 are at a slightly lower risk of dying. That mutation, which was at best neutral last year is now beneficial because the environment has changed. That mutation will increase in frequency in the population because it is beneficial.

Nobody here is disputing microevolution.

 

[Freddy]

rossum:

Techno2000:

Nothing like that is happening now in the real world.

Wrong. Humans with a slightly better genetic resistance to COVID-19 are at a slightly lower risk of dying. That mutation, which was at best neutral last year is now beneficial because the environment has changed. That mutation will increase in frequency in the population because it is beneficial.

Nobody here is disputing microevolution.

Techno, here’s a precis of the above conversation:

T: ‘That doesn’t happen!’
R: ‘Yes it does, and here’s the evidence’
T: ‘Nobody disputes that!’

This is seriously the most fun I’ve had on any forum.

 

[Maximus_Power]

I’m having a good time reading this thread. Freddy is the smart one
Hume is a generic athiest
Rosum is a dreamer.

Fine characters with interesting points of view

 

[Freddy]

I’m having a good time reading this thread. Freddy is the smart one
Hume is a generic athiest
Rosum is a dreamer.

Fine characters with interesting points of view

I need to revise that. @rossum knows more about this subject that anyone I have encountered in very many years of forum discussion. His demeanour and knowledge has actually prompted me to investigate Bhuddism to see if I’m missing out on something (whereas some of the Christian comments in this thread have only confirmed decisions I made many decades ago).

And ‘generic’ is not a term I would use for @Hume. His views are quite specific and, I’m sure he would agree, are his alone. This might seem perverse but I’d look forward to having a disagreement with him.

Beats shooting fish in a barrel…

And in my case you shouldn’t confuse style over substance. My wife discovered that a long time ago.

 

[Maximus_Power]

whereas some of the Christian comments in this thread have only confirmed decisions I made many decades ago).

I’m curious to know what that was. I respect your opinion.

If anyone cares mine is that Hume is generic because he uses sacred scripture out of context to attack Chirstians, which is a very old move dating back to the first and second century.

Rosum is a dreamer because he/she says things that he/she simply doesn’t believe. Substance is an illusion is something only a privileged person could think of. Ask a boxer after a boxing match if substance is an illusion. Then he tries to compare trees and insects with human reason while he types all of this out on a marvelous computer device that no animal could ever fathom. He also says that all creatures are equal and yet he eats plant, and animals instead of humans.

I can see you have a God shaped hole in your heart that you are diligently trying to fill though. I find it hard to believe that a hard worker like you would look into such a lazy religion such as Buddhism though.

Perhaps I’m wrong about a great many things but faith in Jesus Christ is not one of them. I wish you all peace.

 

[stoplooklisten]

All participants here have brought forth their gifts, graces and talents. Thank you.

But, why evaluate and judge each other? The LORD Jesus Christ is the Judge who ultimately counts.

“We must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ.”

There is wisdom, knowledge and understanding beyond what each of us possesses. There is logic beyond our logic. We can be missing things that we should have realized. We can become wise in our conceits while our understanding declines and we begin to resemble brute beasts.

Pride makes us deaf so that we cannot hear.

Sin (the failure to express love and mercy) blinds the ability of our hearts and minds to understand.

The habitual sinner will go from sin to sin without thought of repentance and with conscience deadened and a sense of remorse lost.

We can debate the past but an eternal future matters much more. Now is the time when the gospel promises of mercy and pardon and forgiveness are available but that time will come to an end.

 

[rossum]

Nobody here is disputing microevolution.

You were disputing it. Freddy was discussing small microevolutionary changes in animals’ coats. You said: “Nothing like that is happening now in the real world.” I pointed out that you were wrong, with an obvious example.

I am happy that you recognise your error.

 

[rossum]

Rosum is a dreamer because he/she says things that he/she simply doesn’t believe. Substance is an illusion is something only a privileged person could think of.

I am ‘he’. Substance is a specifically Thomist concept, derived from Greek philosophy. Since I generally follow Prasangika-Madhyamika (Nagarjuna as interpreted by Chandrakirti) philosophy then I do not accept any Essence/Substance/Soul. Substance does not exist; it is a reification of our internal mental models of the external world.

Yes, this approach can seem strange to adherents of some Western philosophies.

 

[IWantGod]

Yes, this approach can seem strange to adherents of some Western philosophies.

It doesn’t just seem strange, it seems to contradict our experiences. Does anything in your experience of the the world lead you to believe that substances or essences do not exist, or do you reject those ideas just because you are a Buddhist?

 

[Noose001]

Since I generally follow Prasangika-Madhyamika (Nagarjuna as interpreted by Chandrakirti) philosophy then I do not accept any Essence/Substance/Soul. Substance does not exist; it is a reification of our internal mental models of the external world.

Cool.
Apply it to the fossil record then.

 

[o_mlly]

Mutation is the cause of change in an organism.

Changes in the environment do not cause changes in the organism.

The chain of causation includes indirect as well as direct causes. It’s axiomatic that an effect cannot precede its cause. Does the mutated organism cause the initial change in the environment? No. Even if the relationship is reciprocal, the initial cause in the chain is most likely the environment. But it’s all academic at this point because Fred has made it a mute point.

The main point is that Fred agrees with Ripperger’s claim that the environment cannot cause macroevolutionary events. It’s merely a diversion to argue the truth in the premise if one agrees on the truth of the consequent.

And articulated speech? A microevolutionary change. Nothing more.

Sorry Fred, that’s not an argument.

 

[stoplooklisten]

I do not accept any Essence/Substance/Soul.

Sorry, Mr. rossum, we don’t get to control reality. We came from a Creator. He is separate from us. He controls us (but has given us a large degree of freedom for as long as we have earthly life and breath). Reality comes from our Creator.

 

[Noose001]

Sorry, Mr. rossum, we don’t get to control reality. We came from a Creator. He is separate from us. He controls us (but has given us a large degree of freedom for as long as we have earthly life and breath). Reality comes from our Creator.

We do have aspects of what @rossum says in the bible though.

 

[stoplooklisten]

We do have elements of what @rossum says in the bible though.

Please elaborate to clarify.

We don’t all get to “do our own thing” and invent our own reality. Reality is a given to which we owe a response.

 

[StudentMI]

Uh that was from a Vatican statement. Are you disputing the intelligence of folks from the Vatican?

 

[Noose001]

Uh that was from a Vatican statement. Are you disputing the intelligence of folks from the Vatican?

I can dispute everything and anything. I don’t follow Vatican so much.