Evolution and Creationism

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Like, your hands are used for grabbing, what minor changes will make your hands ‘more efficient’ in grabbing?
Depends on many things. Could be longer thinner fingers, could be thicker softer finger pads, could be slightly faster reflexes, could be many other things or a combination. All of which could fit within the current normal range of human variation.
 
Well, thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut.
@whatistrue
I don’t even know what the point of this is, and I am not sure that I want to.
Well, the reason is to take responsibility for striving to be impartial on how
evolution is presented for youth and impressionable.
I defer to those who are way more informed than me, such as Catholic Answers exhaustive overview of the speculative hypothesis of evolution.


Also,
if a person is inclined to diligent research on what credible intellectuals like
Bishop Robert Barron and Word of Fire, and Fr. Robert Spitzer of Magis center,
for well-formed discussion points on these things, please do so. At least, it would help obtain a more impartial understanding of these things from sources who have done exhaustive learning on many topics related to the title of this thread. A sign of true intellectual pursuit which could lead to receiving Divine Favor to understand the ethical issues at hand would be to take the time to read, watch videos, and understand holistically what has been presented in this thread. Shallow, not deep investigations of their presentations can easily lead to inferences that are not true.
~
Peace of The Eternal Living Creator; GOD, through JESUS The Son, One in Being with GOD, whereby growth in GOD’s Harmony far surpasses human understanding of seeming absence of conflict by mere limited human reason; be with you. Blessings this Holy Week, the week that changed the world.
 
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Depends on many things. Could be longer thinner fingers, could be thicker softer finger pads, could be slightly faster reflexes, could be many other things or a combination. All of which could fit within the current normal range of human variation.
And all these has nothing to do with evolution; it doesn’t require any mutations.

The changes or minor changes that we are talking about are on the basis of evolution; changes that might add up to a wing that flies from a hand that grabs/grips or both.

My point was, such evolutionary changes however minor must be coordinated and can not be random. For longer thinner fingers arising from mutational means, there has to be elongation of the bones, reduction of muscles, increased capillaries and venules, increased nerve endings and all these by way of some coordinated accidents (mutations) in genes in different loci.

An impossibility.
 
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And all these has nothing to do with evolution; it doesn’t require any mutations.
Evolution does not require that a change be based on a specific mutation. Normal variation ranges can shift over time based on environmental pressures, which can cause the same sorts of changes over long time periods.
My point was, such evolutionary changes however minor must be coordinated and can not be random. Longer thinner fingers arising from mutations means there has to be elongation of the bones, reduction of muscles, increased capillaries and venules, increased nerve endings and all these by way of some coordinated accidents (mutations) in genes in different loci.

An impossibility.
So you are saying that there is no such thing as “surgeon’s hands” or “piano player’s hands” or for that matter “bricklayer’s hands”? That those normal variations are impossible? That is the sort of minor variation that I am talking about.
 
Evolution does not require that a change be based on a specific mutation. Normal variation ranges can shift over time based on environmental pressures, which can cause the same sorts of changes over long time periods.
These so called normal variations are accounted for in the Hereditary science and not Evolution. There’s dominant, co-dominant and weaker genes that can be expressed at any moment in time given the chance. A gene doesn’t become dominant because of external factors or environment.
So you are saying that there is no such thing as “surgeon’s hands” or “piano player’s hands” or for that matter “bricklayer’s hands”? That those normal variations are impossible? That is the sort of minor variation that I am talking about.
No.These are externally acquired skills.
 
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I mean, for an organism to move from water to land it requires not only limbs but also lungs, is this not a coordinated change? Tell me both appear via a series of accidents for a period of time. Unbelievable.
OK, so you need to learn more biology. Lungfish have lungs, and can survive for months out of water when their pond dries up in the dry season. Lungfish’ closest living relatives are Coelacanths, which have proto-legs. That is legs and lungs in the same clade: Sarcopterygii. All land tetrapods are descended from a now extinct group of Saccopterygii, the Osteolepiforms.

Natural selection is not an “accident”. Is it an accident that land animals in the Arctic have thick white fur while animals at the equator do not? No, it is not an accident.
Do you agree that for a fin to function the circulatory system has to be ok, the skeletal system (structure) has to be ok, the nervous system has to be ok, the muscular system has to be ok?
and that for there to be a meaningful structural change, a corresponding change has to happen for these other supporting systems?
Less change in the supporting systems than you seem to imagine. Achondroplasia is caused by a single mutation to a single gene. That one mutation changes the size of the limbs, including the bone structure, the musculature, the nervous system, the blood supply, the lymphatic system etc. Your ‘problem’ is not a real problem. I suggest that you read up on Hox genes and how they interact as the body develops.

Another example is the mutation whereby some people have six digits instead of five. The additional digit has all the other systems in place automatically thanks to the various developmental pathways set in genes.

You are seeing a problem where there is no problem.
 
A gene doesn’t become dominant because of external factors or environment.
Where did you get “become dominant” from anything I wrote? And what does dominant or recessive have to do with evolution?
No.These are externally acquired skills.
The skills are, but the hand configuration is not. So-called “surgeon’s hands” are hands that are slim with long and slender yet strong fingers. It doesn’t mean that you must have that hand shape to be a surgeon, but it does provide an advantage to a surgeon to have them.
 
Bio 101; A functioning fin is the one a fish uses for movement in the water, no such thing as a fin changing to be more efficient for movement on land. A fin is a fin because it is efficient in water.
A mudskipper can swim in water. It can also walk (badly) on land. It has a fin adapted for 90% water and 10% land. That gives it the advantage to be able to move from a drying pond to a nearby full pond.
Bio102; A slight change in a functioning (efficient) fin requires coordination and not randomness, otherwise it looses its functionality and efficiency.
But it gains function an efficiency in other areas. A seal’s flippers are not very efficient for walking on land but are much better at swimming in water. A dog’s legs are much better adapted for walking on land and less well adapted to swimming in water. In both cases the limb can perform two functions, one better than the other. Small changes can make it better at one and less good at the other, moving it in whatever direction gives most advantage. Move the seal’s fins in the direction of better swimming and you get whale fins, which are better at swimming and useless for walking.
 
I’m often confused as to what anti macro evolutionists expect from the fossil record.
There you have it. It is an incomplete and distorted record. In addition, landslides, floods, erosion etc. shuffle bones around and redeposit them in different order. Every time this happens it distorts the record.
 
Maybe you didn’t know that it was written just about the time that light bulbs were being made commercially available or that science considered that the Milky Way was the only galaxy in the universe.
I am glad we agree the old evo ideas should be thrown out and replaced with the most recent. It is a matter of time before it all goes into the trash heap.

Way back then they saw the flaws and these flaws are still present today. It has got worse for evo.
 
OK, so you need to learn more biology. Lungfish have lungs, and can survive for months out of water when their pond dries up in the dry season. Lungfish’ closest living relatives are Coelacanths, which have proto-legs. That is legs and lungs in the same clade: Sarcopterygii. All land tetrapods are descended from a now extinct group of Saccopterygii, the Osteolepiforms.
This is some nice bed time literature and nothing more. Where is the explanation of this supposed shift? what is required for a fully functional lung to develop? A lung is not just on independent organ but it is an organ system that depends on so many other systems for it to function. If it is as a result of a series of mutations, the mutations have to be happening in a lot more genes in a coordinated manner.
Natural selection is not an “accident”. Is it an accident that land animals in the Arctic have thick white fur while animals at the equator do not? No, it is not an accident.
Adaptation, why must it be mutation?
Less change in the supporting systems than you seem to imagine. Achondroplasia is caused by a single mutation to a single gene. That one mutation changes the size of the limbs, including the bone structure, the musculature, the nervous system, the blood supply, the lymphatic system etc. Your ‘problem’ is not a real problem. I suggest that you read up on Hox genes and how they interact as the body develops.

Another example is the mutation whereby some people have six digits instead of five. The additional digit has all the other systems in place automatically thanks to the various developmental pathways set in genes.

You are seeing a problem where there is no problem.
  1. Achondroplasia is a genetic condition that causes Dwarfism. In Dwarfism, everything is proportionally short as opposed to being proportionally long/tall. The legs and hands and torso, the only thing that is untouched is the head. This already indicates that there’s a single gene responsible for size and single mutation in this gene causes this condition.
  2. Other mutations can target development of certain body parts e.g right or left arm only. Such parts will not be functional because they are underdeveloped.
  3. The above is very different from what is fronted as beneficial mutations which target specific organ and organ systems. There’s no single gene responsible for circulatory, nervous, reproduction, muscular, skeletal systems. There has to be a coordinated series of mutations in all these systems to maintain the functionality of an organ system.
  4. The HOX genes are responsible for positioning and symmetry only
  5. What i’m raising here is nothing new, it was raised by Scientists during Darwins time. There’s no answer to date. Even though people argued mostly about the eye because it is one of the most complicated organ, this argument applies to every other body part.
 
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You have made a big assumption, and not provided any evidence to support it. Evolution can show a sequence of changes from lobe-fin fish to legs on early amphibians to land tetrapods to three different types of wing: pterosaurs, birds and bats. Bird wings have in at least one case further evolved for swimming, back to the original function of the lobe-fin. Evolution has the evidence to support its case.
You assume the direction. Any transitionals could be defects from the original. The arrow points to devolution.
 
Please explain. You can stick to the example of a fin changing to a limb
What are these small changes like? how is final functional structure different from the parent and how can these changes be achieved?
There must be an increase in fitness in each increment without the corresponding deleterious load put on the organism.
 
OK, so you need to learn more biology. Lungfish have lungs, and can survive for months out of water when their pond dries up in the dry season.
What if the archetype could live on both land and water, but over time devolved so most cannot? Transitionals tell you nothing of the direction, so you have to assume long ages, uniformatarianism and UCA, a foundation built on sand.
 
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There must be an increase in fitness in each increment without the corresponding deleterious load put on the organism.
Increasing fitness is mostly adaptation but come to think of it, a fully fit fin is the one that functions (propels the fish), there’s no increase in fitness or functionality.

Or maybe, increased fitness means that the propulsion was slower so it is moving to faster propulsion. To me, slower propulsion means the fin is not fully functional and no changes will make it move faster.

It is not like human limbs. Human limbs have more than one function and so have a wider range to operate from.
 
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I suggest that you read up on Hox genes and how they interact as the body develops.
Perfect! Glad you brought it up.

IDvolution

ID=Intelligently Designed

volution - having a volute or rolled-up form.

"
“The process is astonishingly simple. In the embryo’s first moments, the Hox genes are dormant, packaged like a spool of wound yarn on the DNA. When the time is right, the strand begins to unwind. When the embryo begins to form the upper levels, the genes encoding the formation of cervical vertebrae come off the spool and become activated. Then it is the thoracic vertebrae’s turn, and so on down to the tailbone. The DNA strand acts a bit like an old-fashioned computer punchcard, delivering specific instructions as it progressively goes through the machine.”
“A new gene comes out of the spool every ninety minutes, which corresponds to the time needed for a new layer of the embryo to be built,” explains Duboule. “It takes two days for the strand to completely unwind; this is the same time that’s needed for all the layers of the embryo to be completed.” This system is the first “mechanical” clock ever discovered in genetics. And it explains why the system is so remarkably precise." Source
 
Yeah, why not try an appeal to mockery, eh?

Nothing magic about it.

Both “vague” and “tailor made” to describe the same thing? Would not have been my choice.

When one is speaking in response to generic hypothetical situations set up by the other party, one is left to use generic hypothetical language. If a specific scenario was asked about, then the specific pressures that could have reinforced the usefulness of a specific change could be discussed. To be fair, such discussion would have to be carried out by someone who has the relevant information available, and I am not aware of how many people exist who both have that information and frequent this forum.
 
Yeah, why not try an appeal to mockery, eh?

Nothing magic about it.

Both “vague” and “tailor made” to describe the same thing? Would not have been my choice.

When one is speaking in response to generic hypothetical situations set up by the other party, one is left to use generic hypothetical language. If a specific scenario was asked about, then the specific pressures that could have reinforced the usefulness of a specific change could be discussed. To be fair, such discussion would have to be carried out by someone who has the relevant information available, and I am not aware of how many people exist who both have that information and frequent this forum.
Ok, please me a give example of an “environmental pressures”.
 
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Ok, please me a give example of an “environmental pressures”.
How about four random offhand possibilities?

1 - Plate tectonics sending your living area into a different climate zone.
2 - The lake you live in slowly changing to be more salty.
3 - Average temperatures rising or falling over time.
4 - Mountain formation making your temperate forest into a desert over a few thousand years.
 
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