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Freddy
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Good grief. I went to sleep last night and then woke up in Punxsutawney.
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Freddy
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I’m not holding out much hope of a response here…nobody else wants to attempt an answer…but I may as well ask anyway.Freddy:
We have fish that can live outside water; such a fish has what it takes to survive both in and out of the water. If we assume that such fish had an ancestor who could only live in water and changes happened over a period of time, then we are faced by an impossible task of explaining how these changes are possible.
Evolution doesn’t offer such explanations, it only assumes and then offers superficial explanation about there being distant and close cousins.
Do you have some details on how the world has come to be as it is right now if we exclude evolution? I mean some time lines. Some explanation of kangaroos and walking fish and flying mammals and dinosaur fossils and the whole shebang.
Could you offer some alternative theory with, I dunno, some evidence to back it up?
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Noose001
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- The truth is, the whole universe exists in your mind and reality is a creation of your consciousness. This is what the bible says and does anyone care to read between the lines?
- Evidence?! of course there’s evidence but it depends what you mean by ‘evidence’. I prefer the word ‘understanding’
Help me out, what’s the evidence that darkness is a reality?
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Freddy
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Well, if it’s in your mind, then tell us whatever that is (are we actually going to discuss what you imagine to be the process?). But give us something for heaven’s sake.Freddy:
Not that i read the bible first and came to this conclusion, the bible is very poetic but if you are keen enough in observing what is around you, the creation itself attests to this.
- The truth is, the whole universe exists in your mind and reality is a creation of your consciousness. This is what the bible says and does anyone care to read between the lines?
- Evidence?! of course there’s evidence but it depends what you mean by ‘evidence’. I prefer the word ‘understanding’
Help me out, what’s the evidence that darkness is a reality?
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Noose001
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Yes, reality is the creation of your mind. This is an understanding and an understanding is one step above evidence. This means you did not evolve to the top just to create reality but consciousness has been there from the beginning and everything else finding their existence from consciousness.
I have asked you, what’s the evidence that darkness exists? Does darkness really exist?
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Freddy
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Forget darkness. This isn’t a thread on the conception of light. This is a thread on evolution/creationism. So enough already with the deflection. Tell us how the process as you believe actually works. Keep it simple. Keep it straightforward. But please let us know.Freddy:
Yes, reality is the creation of your mind. This is an understanding and an understanding is one step above evidence. This means you did not evolve to the top just to create reality but consciousness has been there from the beginning and everything else finding their existence from consciousness.
I have asked you, what’s the evidence that darkness exists? Does darkness really exist?
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Noose001
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I’m already explaining creation theory and i’m trying to keep it simple, very simple. Creation starts from the very beginning which is darkness.
Now, according to you, does darkness exist? What’s the evidence?
I want to take you step by step
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Noose001
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Freddy
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I don’t want to know about creation, Noose. Just how the process works so we get kangaroos and penguins and mossies and trees etc. If you just want to say it’s God then fair enough. Buf tell us what process He uses if it’s not evolution.Freddy:
I’m already explaining creation theory and i’m trying to keep it simple, very simple. Creation starts from the very beginning which is darkness.
Now, according to you, does darkness exist? What’s the evidence?
I want to take you step by step
Did He make everything exactly as is? Did He do it a few billion years ago or a few thousand? Were dinosaurs and other extinct species part of the plan? Please give us some details if you could.
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Freddy
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Few more details would be good. We’ve all read Genesis. When did this happen etc?
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rossum
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Yes. One nineteenth century scientist made a mistake. Is Christianity wrong because Martin Luther made a mistake?
Humans make mistakes. Haeckel’s mistake has long ago been corrected by science.
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Noose001
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Ok.
- The reason you are finding it difficult to let me know what you think of darkness is that darkness is not observable, yet it is there, an obvious condition even a new born can tell when it is dark. We just have an ‘understanding’ that it is there, not that we can measure and show evidence
It is immaterial and because it is immaterial, it was never created and it is not dependent on anything, it has no source - all immaterial things share these properties - Importance of darkness
Light is created yet it is meaningless without the darkness just like sound is meaningless without silence. I mean, if there’s no darkness, there can never be light because light only makes sense if it is contrasted to darkness. The tool that does this contrast is consciousness or a conscious mind. In essence, darkness represents nothingness while light represents creation or how consciousness gives meaning to nothingness. This is the reason each creation day is capped by ‘morning and evening’ phrase to show that each creation is actually a representation of something meaningful being brought out of the dark (not necessarily materially but through understanding)
- What was created through wisdom and understanding was perfect. It was immaterial and will remain forever but it is man who made the material appear. Because the other dimension is about ‘understanding’, the opposite of understanding brought about the physical and hence ‘time’. What this means is that what we perceive as physical is not really physical but our perception is deceiving.
Are we together up to this point?
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Freddy
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I’ll tell you what. You keep writing posts like that and I’ll keep on ignoring them. That sound OK to you?
Then when you eventually get to a point that describes the actual processes that you believe are an alternative to evolution, then I’ll join in.
Does that sound fair to you?
Heaven knows how long this might take. But I ain’t going anywhere.
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Noose001
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- Recap.
Time and what we perceive as physical is a creation of our mind only.
Did God create Dinosaurs and when did He create? Yes, God created everything through understanding:
and established the heavens by understanding.
Time is of no importance because God and every perfect thing He created exist eternally (t=0) but the through man’s failures, the temporary (t=n) appeared causing Dinosaurs to go extinct.
Ecc 3: 9 What does the worker gain from his toil? 10 I have seen the burden that God has laid on the sons of men to occupy them. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom the work that God has done from beginning to end.
There’s no billions of years therefore.
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Freddy
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Try and be positive, Noose. Don’t tell us what it wasn’t. Tell us what it was.
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Noose001
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- Bible aside
Is reality independent from an observer (consciousness)? I’ll let Physicists answer that but recent experiments show that the observer creates reality.
If that consciousness is to stop experiencing passage of time and shift to eternity (t=0), i know exactly what will happen- You’ll try to talk but you won’t have a mouth or a tongue and sound will come out, you’ll try to lift that cup but there’s no cup because you won’t be seeing anything, you can’t hear anything and you won’t feel yourself anymore, only your understanding will be trapped in darkness. The same darkness from which you were brought from. This is what the bible calls chains of darkness:
2 Pet 2: 4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell,a placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight;
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Noose001
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What i mean is that what we perceive is deceiving; “…for we walk by faith, not by sight…”
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Noose001
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2 Cor 4: 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”a made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.b
and
1 Thess 5: 4 But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5 For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
Therefore, according to creation, there’s two dimensions;
But, there’s hope, the same way you understand that darkness exists by seeing light, also God exists and He created everything:
Rom 1: 19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.
and
1 Thess 5: 4 But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5 For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness.
Therefore, according to creation, there’s two dimensions;
- The created perfect universe which is in the dimension of understanding/spirit
- The fallen, temporary universe as man sees it
But, there’s hope, the same way you understand that darkness exists by seeing light, also God exists and He created everything:
Rom 1: 19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.
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Gigantals
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That is a conclusion we all need to come to ourselves. Just latching onto what others say won’t help. This is something we need to look at both sides of and reach a conclusion that we can happily say we support, and be prepared to answer why when others ask.
I personally came to the conclusion of YEC, which puts me in a rather difficult position. But it doesn’t change my standing, because that it where I concluded the evidence points to.
I personally came to the conclusion of YEC, which puts me in a rather difficult position. But it doesn’t change my standing, because that it where I concluded the evidence points to.
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o_mlly
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True, that insight would include your “painted corner” as well, Fred.
Lelinator bailed because he realized that the self-evident and reasoned principles put forward would make macroevolution an untenable position. Why else would he run from the debate that he initiated?
Here you go, Fred. Same proposition:
What is your definition of “scientific”?
Can a non-scientific theory have as much or more explanatory power to its juxtaposed scientific theory?
Do you agree:
- that all scientific hypotheses and theories are not facts.
- that science may only appeal to natural causes to explain observable effects.
- that effects that have no natural cause will never be explained by science.
- that nevertheless, science must put forward possible natural explanations as explanatory of observed events, even if those hypotheses are improbable but merely possible.
- that the value of a scientific hypothesis lies in to what degree does that hypothesis provide man to control nature.*
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