Evolution: Is There Any Good Reason To Reject The Abiogenesis Hypothesis?

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Wozza said:
What you are actually saying is that you don’t believe that God could set up existence so that it would happen naturally.

Unless I’m mistaken, He is believed to be omnipotent. Seems that you are limiting what He can do.
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What is missing in this post is the Christian God, who is Love itself and sacrificed His only Son, for our salvation and redemption, following the original sin commited by the first human being, from whom we are all derived.

God is intimately involved with all creation, which is why we are told:
Luke6:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him! 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
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He brings all existence into being, everything doing what it does - atoms interacting on the basis of such properties as charge and mass, bacteria incorporating matter on the outside, into themselves and reproducing, animals possessing complex perceptual, emotional, cognitive and behavioural instincts, and we ourselves, capable of knowledge and free will. Everything in existence does as it has been created to do, having an ontological Source and beginning in time.

The spirit which possesses, gives order to and is one with our body is of a different order than the molecular events of which it is constituted. The order is not inherent in the bricks and mortar, themselves, but is imposed by the architect and builder, with whom we work, building this mansion in which we will live together eternally.
 
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Aloysium said:
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Wozza:
What you are actually saying is that you don’t believe that God could set up existence so that it would happen naturally.

Unless I’m mistaken, He is believed to be omnipotent. Seems that you are limiting what He can do.
Click to expand...
What is missing in this post is the Christian God, who is Love itself and sacrificed His only Son, for our salvation and redemption, following the original sin commited by the first human being, from whom we are all derived.

God is intimately involved with all creation, which is why we are told:
Luke6:5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him! 6 Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
Click to expand...
He brings all existence into being, everything doing what it does - atoms interacting on the basis of such properties as charge and mass, bacteria incorporating matter on the outside, into themselves and reproducing, animals possessing complex perceptual, emotional, cognitive and behavioural instincts, and we ourselves, capable of knowledge and free will. Everything in existence does as it has been created to do, having a beginning.

The spirit which possesses, gives order to and is one with our body is of a different order than the molecular events of which it is constituted. The order is not inherent in the bricks and mortar, themselves, but is imposed by the architect and builder, with whom we work, building this mansion in which we will live together eternally.
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Same applies to you, Al. My last response to you in this thread. You and Buff and Ed can have this all to yourself.

Do yourself a favour and try to engage with the rest of the forum. These are meant to be discussions. Not platforms for individuals to push their ID barrows.
 
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TomH1 said:
I’m not aware of the Church’s position on abiogenesis but I do believe the Catholic Church officially accepts evolution
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The Church as an entity has remained neutral. Many important Catholics, including Pope’s, have accepted evolution.
 
What do you mean by “accepted evolution”? Certainly not the Godless version being promoted here.
 
edwest211 said:
What do you mean by “accepted evolution”? Certainly not the Godless version being promoted here.
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And the last of the three…

No-one is pushing a Godless version. But you’ll keep singing from that same song sheet.

Last response to you as well. Have fun!
 
edwest211 said:
What do you mean by “accepted evolution”? Certainly not the Godless version being promoted here.
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I read the opening post quickly, but I was under the impression that it was talking about theistic evolution, that is intelligent design.
 
rossum said:
Science has produced amino acids since the 1950s using purely natural processes. where are your divinely produced amino acids?
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Do we really have to rehash the issues with lab produced designed experiments?
 
IWantGod said:
Given the four premises above is there any good reason to think that God didn’t allow complex life to form naturally from chemical interactions? More importantly is there any good reason to think that there is any logical contradiction in thinking that single celled organisms were the result of a chemical soup, and in fact this same process might have occurred elsewhere?
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I will let Scripture give my answer:
11And God said, “Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth.” And it was so. 12**The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
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Natural processes are pretty much what Scripture describes, in my opinion. The need for special intervention by God diminishes His Greatness. Obviously when we speak of spiritual things like rational souls there is a difference, but biological life is simply an aspect of the universe that God created and continues to create.

Peace and God bless!
 
buffalo said:
Do we really have to rehash the issues with lab produced designed experiments?
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No we do not. If you want to ignore all of science so far, including Professor Behe’s experiments in ID, then fine. However that immediately disallows all your links to science experiments since those experiments were designed by humans, not by your proposed designer. Hence those experiments are not relevant to showing the existence of a non-human designer. At most they can show the existence of a human designer.
 
TomH1 said:
I’m not aware of the Church’s position on abiogenesis but I do believe the Catholic Church officially accepts evolution. I am prepared to be disabused of that fact but not by personal opinion; only by reference to an official source from the Church rejecting evolution.
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The Church absolutely accepts evolution (although it certainly does not require Catholics to believe evolution), and has no problem with abiogenesis.
 
rossum said:
Science has produced amino acids since the 1950s using purely natural processes. where are your divinely produced amino acids?
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The ones you just referenced. Seriously though, God is the ultimate source of everything (including amino acids.)
 
I’m only pointing out that the ‘science only’ explanation is incomplete.
 
Gorgias said:
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IWantGod:
It appears as if the universe is a system that manifests according to the intrinsic principles put there by the Creator and is not something that is tinkered with. It’s a universe that creates new forms through it’s internal interactions.
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Classic Deism. That’s not what the Catholic Church teaches…
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The tinkering God, who creates, let’s things run mechanically, and steps in occasionall is deism. The theist position of a God who at every moment conserves the natural order and that the natural order is at every moment dependent on him is what IWantGod is referring to. God is intimately involved, then, even in an abiogenesis scenario, without being a “tinkerer.”
 
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I think this thread is great! I’ve actually learned a lot, reformulated my ideas on the subject 180 degrees. Maybe I can help someone else sort through the science, and what is beyond.

I must say that all this talk of matter, all these ideas, opinions, and deflections from the argument bring to light how the human mind operates, involving such human qualities as emotion, motivation, self-regard, and belief systems. That these impact on communication, is clear based on the interpretations that are fed back to me. I’m accepting that in large part we here, are speaking to ourselves, and glad if someone gets something from what I’ve written.
 
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