Ex-Catholics and salvation

[fhansen]

He knows that the Church teaches that it is from Jesus, but he does not believe that anymore.

We can’t know something and then not know it. He may know what the Church teaches about herself but he obviously didn’t believe it or he would’ve stayed-unless for some reason he’s striving for a position in hell which is highly unlikely.

 

[TotallyConfused]

We can’t know something and then not know it. He may know what the Church teaches about herself but he obviously didn’t believe it or he would’ve stayed-unless for some reason he’s striving for a position in hell which is highly unlikely.

It’s possible that we can know what the Church teaches, believed it at some point, but now not believe it anymore, based on personal experiences, this is very possible.

It’s not like he doesn’t know it anymore, he still knows what they teach, he just doesn’t believe it anymore. That’s where the catch of this question comes in.

He left knowing full well what they teach, but doesn’t believe it.

 

[nilofc]

Let’s define what “Church” really is.

It is a body of believers baptized in the name of the Father, the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

The Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church.

Subsistence means “to remain in force, being, or effect,” and only in the Catholic Church does the one Church founded by Christ “and instituted it as a ‘visible and spiritual community’” subsist.

For more info: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

 

[TotallyConfused]

for all intents and purposes, when I say church, it’s the Catholic Church.

He has left the Catholic Church, so what does that do to his soul?

That’s the question.

Thanks!

 

[nilofc]

The short and easy answer is “I don’t know”. His salvation is not mine to judge upon. Salvation is the prerogative of God not by anyone else.

All I know is that if he left the Church knowing that the Catholic Church holds the fullness of the truth and the intrument of Christ for means of salvation… then… that would be troublesome for him.

But as you can clearly see in all our replies…the Catholic Church never condemns anyone.

 

[nilofc]

Hebrew 6:4-6
"For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt. "

This warning sounds like the refusing to go to mass after the individual has been accepted into church and received the Holy Eucharist.

In my experience, the individuals who I find to be the most anti-catholic of all are the ex-catholics, they will refuse anything that is catholic. So this warning is true…it is like impossible for them to go back.

 

[Cristiano]

for all intents and purposes, when I say church, it’s the Catholic Church.

He has left the Catholic Church, so what does that do to his soul?

That’s the question.

Thanks!

Choosing to leave the Church is a choice of detachment from God. Hell is the final stage of detachment from God. God is infinitely just and He will accept the person’s choice of going to hell.
However, God wants this person to be with Him in heaven and because He is also infinitely merciful He will give this man plenty of opportunities to have a change of heart.
We may never know if, how, or when this person is going to have a change of heart and that it is not important. What it matters is that in his own ways this person still wants to be close to God and so there is evidence that we are not in the case of complete rejection, and that is good. Never underestimate the power of Grace and never expect to fully understand how it works.

 

[TotallyConfused]

Hebrew 6:4-6
"For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt. "

This warning sounds like the refusing to go to mass after the individual has been accepted into church and received the Holy Eucharist.

In my experience, the individuals who I find to be the most anti-catholic of all are the ex-catholics, they will refuse anything that is catholic. So this warning is true…it is like impossible for them to go back.

OK, but I do have an issue with this bible verse, especially in this scenario.

This verse clearly states that it’s “Game over” for this person. The Bible says that it’s impossible. So, in this verse, any “backsliding” Christian has no hope of returning again.
But, isn’t that exactly the parable of the Prodigal Son?

And in our scenario, this guy has turned away from the Church, yes. But later, if he does come around and confesses….then the church teaches that he is forgiven, but the Bible says no…and then, it would be a waste of time to even pursue Christianity from that point on, isn’t that so?

I don’t understand that verse and it’s implications on our belief structure.

 

[kage_ar]

From the Catechism, schism is a sin:

From the CCC on Schism:

**2089 ***Incredulity *is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. “*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; *apostasy *is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; *schism *is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

As we see, forgivness is available:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a10.htm#982

[982](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/982.htm’) There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive. "There is no one, however wicked and guilty, who may not confidently hope for forgiveness, provided his repentance is honest.529 Christ who died for all men desires that in his Church the gates of forgiveness should always be open to anyone who turns away from sin.

 

[nilofc]

OK, but I do have an issue with this bible verse, especially in this scenario.

This verse clearly states that it’s “Game over” for this person. The Bible says that it’s impossible. So, in this verse, any “backsliding” Christian has no hope of returning again.
But, isn’t that exactly the parable of the Prodigal Son?

And in our scenario, this guy has turned away from the Church, yes. But later, if he does come around and confesses….then the church teaches that he is forgiven, but the Bible says no…and then, it would be a waste of time to even pursue Christianity from that point on, isn’t that so?

I don’t understand that verse and it’s implications on our belief structure.

Well let’s just say that God’s greatest quality or attribute of all…is His Mercy.

There’s an unforgivable sin…and that is the sin against the Holy Spirit which is believing that your sins are greater that God’s mercy. In that regard, it is quite unforgivable since you have placed your sin to be greater than God.

St. Paul is saying the same thing…it is quite impossible for a man who has tasted these heavenly things and then turns around and think there is something greater than God’s goodness and mercy.

That is practically the sin against the 1st commandment. If you fail with the first…every commandment that follows doesn’t carry any weight.

If you think and you are resolved that there is something greater than God…then it’s game over.

 

[TotallyConfused]

St. Paul is saying the same thing…it is quite impossible for a man who has tasted these heavenly things and then turns around and think there is something greater than God’s goodness and mercy.

I totally understand waht you are saying, the sin against the holy spirit…but that verse is not that sin. the verse talks specifically about coming to repentance again after turning away…let’s read it again:

Hebrew 6:4-6
"**For it is impossible **in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt. "

This does not sound like the sin against the Holy Spirit…it clearly says that once you are fallen away, **after being converted **it’s game over…

 

[nilofc]

I totally understand waht you are saying, the sin against the holy spirit…but that verse is not that sin. the verse talks specifically about coming to repentance again after turning away…let’s read it again:

This does not sound like the sin against the Holy Spirit…it clearly says that once you are fallen away, **after being converted **it’s game over…

Hmmm… I don’t know about this but it sure seems to be connected in a way. If you’ve fallen away and you think that you can’t come back (and that is because you doubt God’s mercy) then what St. Paul is saying is true…it is impossible.

All I am saying is… there’s not one sin that God cannot forgive.

 

[TotallyConfused]

All I am saying is… there’s not one sin that God cannot forgive.

True, then maybe God doesn’t want to forgive these sins.

If God’s mind is set against forgiving this sin, then it would be impossible to return wouldn’t it?

Interesting.

 

[RyanML]

for all intents and purposes, when I say church, it’s the Catholic Church.

He has left the Catholic Church, so what does that do to his soul?

That’s the question.

Thanks!

Outside of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, your friend does not have the fullness of the life of grace because he does not have the sacraments and the fullest and most true understanding of faith. That being said, one is not condemned for hearing the truth and rejecting it. It’s more compicated than that. I can tell a buddhist that Jesus Christ is Lord and Messiah, but that does not mean that he will be convicted of its truth. If the Holy Spirit convicts someone of the truth and, KNOWING it to be true that soul rejects it anyway, then they can not be saved. The question then would be, did your friend KNOW that what he rejected was the truth, or was he never really convinced of it? Was it just “mechanical obedience”?

 

[nilofc]

True, then maybe God doesn’t want to forgive these sins.

If God’s mind is set against forgiving this sin, then it would be impossible to return wouldn’t it?

Interesting.

well…actually, I would like rephrase what you said… God does want to forgive these sins…

It is the person who is preventing the forgiveness to take place because of his lack of trust to God’s mercy and his lack of effort to repent.

I mean, if you ask me…how can I forgive someone who refuses to admit to his own faults?

By the way, you know the difference between forgiveness and mercy right?

 

[wcknight]

Instead of focusing on the negative, it is far better to focus on the positive. We sinners must never give up hope. God’s mercy is boundless. We should never dispair because God never gives up on anybody. We may turn away from Him but He never turns away from us.

The thing I always tell ex-Catholics is that they may have turned their backs to God, but God never turns His back on us. He is always waiting for us to ask for forgiveness. If murderers, thieves, and rapists can be forgiven then so can fallen away Catholics. It’s never too late to say you’re sorry.

 

[TotallyConfused]

well…actually, I would like rephrase what you said… God does want to forgive these sins…

It is the person who is preventing the forgiveness to take place because of his lack of trust to God’s mercy and his lack of effort to repent.

I hear you, and you are right, but you are back on the “sin against the Holy Spirit” with this. In that respect you are right.

Thinking of this now, the sin against the Holy Spirit is not defined in the Bible, it is taught by the Church that it’s when the person is unwilling to return to the confessional.

What if that is actually not correct. What if the Sin against the holy Spirit is turning from God, falling away from God. Maybe that sin is unforgivable and God will not forgive it once it’s done.

The interpretation of the verse in Hebrews is cut and dry about returning to the Church. It’s impossible.

That’s why I think that God chooses not to forgive that particular sin, even though He can…

 

[TotallyConfused]

Instead of focusing on the negative, it is far better to focus on the positive.

I’m sorry, but I respectfully disagree here. This is a verse from the bible that has been brought forth and it seems crucial to salvation…at lease for this friend of mine.

Ignoring something like this, that doesn’t fall into our understanding of things, is the easy way out and a way to remain ignorant. And yet it is clearly pointed out in the Bible.
I find a lot of Christians just ignore things they can’t explain or doesn’t fit into their interpretations and draw focus to something else.

Not pointed at you, WCKnight, just my general experience on matters.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

He knows that the Church teaches that it is from Jesus, but he does not believe that anymore.

Let’'s dabble with hypotheticals for a moment. Suppose a persons converts to Catholicism, goes through RCIA and is a devout practicioner. Now that person sends his son to a Catholic school and the there the son is abused by a pedophile priest. The person is so crushed in his faith that he can no longer believe that the Church is from Jesus anymore. He leaves the Church and hates it for what it did to him and to his son.

I have to believe that God understands the wound the caused the person to lose his faith and leave the Church. God will judge the person in justice and mercy.

On the other hand suppose the person was a latent homosexual when he went through RCIA - he did not even know himself that he had such leanings within him. Later on these leanings surfaced, and he became aware of them, and now he is angry because the Church will not permit him to act on these feelings and still partake in the sacraments so he leaves the CHurch.

I still believe that God understands the person’s anger. God will judge the person in justice and mercy.

One or both or neither of these individuals may be saved. But we can rest secure in the knowledge that God will do what is not only fair, but loving.

 

[nilofc]

I hear you, and you are right, but you are back on the “sin against the Holy Spirit” with this. In that respect you are right.

Thinking of this now, the sin against the Holy Spirit is not defined in the Bible, it is taught by the Church that it’s when the person is unwilling to return to the confessional.

What if that is actually not correct. What if the Sin against the holy Spirit is turning from God, falling away from God. Maybe that sin is unforgivable and God will not forgive it once it’s done.

The interpretation of the verse in Hebrews is cut and dry about returning to the Church. It’s impossible.

That’s why I think that God chooses not to forgive that particular sin, even though He can…

…the only statement that I will agree you on your reply is the last one…

"That’s why I think that God chooses not to forgive that particular sin, even though He can…"

But… God will always choose to forgive any sin, no matter how grave it is, even falling away from Church and God, as long as the person is truly repentant.

The only time that he will not forgive someone who has fallen away from Church is when that person refuses to cooperate with the grace of repentance. Someone who won’t repent.

St. Paul in Hebrews is talking about this person…someone who tasted the heavenly gift and then turns away stubbornly persistent in wrongdoing.