Ex-Catholics and salvation

[nilofc]

“Because the Church tells you so”….Yup, another standard line.

The bible is inspired from God, it was written by the Apostles and followers of Jesus. I don’t need the Church to tell me that, just read it.

Even if they were not compiled into a single bound book, they would still be available in individual letters as inspired letters, authored by the Holy Spirit.

We are going way off topic here…

…and who would tell you that it is inspired if not for the Church?
There were gospels according to Thomas, the gospel according to Peter…why aren’t they in the bible? And who would say that they can be accepted as individually inspired books? Kinda chaotic, don’t you think?

Now aren’t you glad, that the followers of Christ that wrote and defined them as inspired were Catholics?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

It’s a book from God Himself. It’s for all men, written by God. It’s not Catholic, only for Catholics.

But what you forget is that the Church is also from God Himself, the Sacrament of Salvation to the world. The Bible as part of Tradition is the Operating Manual for the Church. A Catholic Manual for the Catholic Church.

 

[kage_ar]

Totally Confused - I am totally confused, if you are not Catholic, you do not accept the authority of the Catholic Church - why do you give a rat’s patootie WHAT Church teaches abot anything?

 

[TotallyConfused]

Totally Confused - I am totally confused, if you are not Catholic, you do not accept the authority of the Catholic Church - why do you give a rat’s patootie WHAT Church teaches abot anything?

As I said, we got off topic. I merely wanted to find out what you folks believe about my friend’s salvation.
But some folks don’t wanna let go.

Thanks.

 

[quiet52]

If your friend is denouncing Catholicism because he is persisting in sin (such as re-marrying without an annulment, sexual sin, hanging on to resentments against individuals in the Church, using contraceptives, etc…), then he is being dishonest and you must fervently pray for him, and gently exhort him for his sins.

I’ve known many “former” Catholics whose stubborn clinging on to immoral behaviors is more important to them than reconciling with Jesus is. For instance, one woman, who now calls herself an Episcopalian, has had two abortions and contracepts, and does not consider these behaviors as sin. They are. Her soul is in mortal danger.

 

[Cinette]

In this case the specific doctrine doesn’t really matter.

The basis of the question is that if someone leaves the Church, can he get saved, once he has been a Catholic, but is not practicing at the time of his death.

That’s the question.

It does matter. Why are you hesitant in saying what the specific doctrine is since these forums are totally anonymous?? Doesn’t makes sense to me. How can you ask a question by only stating half of it. It would help to know the specific doctrine.

Take a look at:

Hebrews 10:26-27

/FONT]

 

[wcknight]

Any yet we just uncovered one…

Why would you even have oral traditions? It seems redundant and excessive. Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. To say that there are Traditions, with a uppercase “T” implies that Scripture is not complete….as if all that is necessary for salvation is not contained in Scripture. We need additional information that’s ALSO from God?

And what’s more incredible is that Tradition holds teachings that can ruin a man’s soul, like contraceptives and masturbation and missing mass, etc.

And what specifically is the contradiction ???

Scripture may not have everything that Tradition has because scriptures stopped as of almost 2000 years ago. BUT there is absolutely nothing in APPROVED Catholic tradition that contradicts scirptures. That is a proven fact !!

As I stated before no Church doctrine is ever accepted until all scriptures has been studied and reviewed. The Church goes to great lenghts to make sure there is no contradiction.

IF you buy a recent copy of the Catechism, there is scriptural reference for every item in it.

BTW scriptures DOES contain everything that we need to know to be saved. It does NOT contain recent Church doctrine because it’s accounts ends after the Apostles and the early Church. This is not a contradiction, but a mere fact that scriptures is a running history of God’s people up until early Church history. Revelations coming after scriptures were wriiten are NOT contradictions simply because they are not in scriptures. The Church will never approve any such doctrine if it did.

But again scriptures does not, can not, and will not ever contradict any teaching of the Catholic Church. You can bet your life on that.

 

[Cinette]

well…actually, I would like rephrase what you said… God does want to forgive these sins…

…

**
By the way, you know the difference between forgiveness and mercy right?**

That is an interesting reflection and one that gives us sinners HOPE!!!

 

[Cinette]

I hear you, and you are right, but you are back on the “sin against the Holy Spirit” with this. In that respect you are right.

Thinking of this now, the sin against the Holy Spirit is not defined in the Bible, it is taught by the Church that it’s when the person is unwilling to return to the confessional.Ugh Ugh - No!

What if that is actually not correct. What if the Sin against the holy Spirit is turning from God, falling away from God.:sad_yes: Maybe that sin is unforgivable and God will not forgive it once it’s done. That makes more sense

The interpretation of the verse in Hebrews is cut and dry about returning to the Church. It’s impossible.No, I don’t think so. We need an expert Theologian here.

That’s why I think that God chooses not to forgive that particular sin, even though He can…I think there is more to it than that.

 

[Cinette]

I’m sorry, but I respectfully disagree here. This is a verse from the bible that has been brought forth and it seems crucial to salvation…at lease for this friend of mine.

Ignoring something like this, that doesn’t fall into our understanding of things, is the easy way out and a way to remain ignorant. And yet it is clearly pointed out in the Bible.
I find a lot of Christians just ignore things they can’t explain or doesn’t fit into their interpretations and draw focus to something else.

Not pointed at you, WCKnight, just my general experience on matters.

Calling Guanophone! Calling Guanophore! Where are you?

Guanophore posted on page 1 - where is Guanophore???

Guano usually has very good responses.

LOL - just look at me! I have not read all the postings and who knows Guanophore might have responded to this already. If so - forgive me.

I am an impatient creature!

 

[Cinette]

To make matters easier…

Just look at Peter and Judas…

…both turned their backs away from God.

One came back, one didn’t.

The one that came back became the greatest among the apostles, the one that didn’t…became the son of perdition.
But boy I tell you…whew… if the other one came back and repent… wow…he could have been the greatest of them all.

I hope this will enlighten our minds in the true mercy of God. That Jesus will forgive any sin…you just have to show up really feel sorry for having offended Him.

God’s greatest quality is MERCY.

Yes - I think you hit the nail on the head!

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Originally Posted by TotallyConfused and responded to by Cinette in blue and commented on by Marsha in red.

I hear you, and you are right, but you are back on the “sin against the Holy Spirit” with this. In that respect you are right.

Thinking of this now, the sin against the Holy Spirit is not defined in the Bible, it is taught by the Church that it’s when the person is unwilling to return to the confessional.Ugh Ugh - No!

What if that is actually not correct. What if the Sin against the holy Spirit is turning from God, falling away from God. Maybe that sin is unforgivable and God will not forgive it once it’s done. That makes more sense

If a person has willfully and intentionally turned away from God he/she will be unwilling to return to the confessional, so paragraphs 2 and 3 are actually the same thing in different words.The only sin that God will not forgive is the unconfessed sin. Many people slip away from the Church sometime in their lives. They may look for God elsewhere. They may even think they hate God for some tragedy in their lives. But God keeps calling them back. As long as they can hear that still small voice they have not committed the unpardonable sin. And many return to God, like the Prodigal Son. How does the parable of the Prodigal Son fit with the text in Hebrews? Should the time come that they can no longer hear God’s voice and they die unconfessed then yes they may have committed the unpardonable son. BUT even though it appears that way to you and I, remember that “man looks upon outward appearances, God looks upon the heart.”

The interpretation of the verse in Hebrews is cut and dry about returning to the Church. It’s impossible.No, I don’t think so. We need an expert Theologian here.

That’s why I think that God chooses not to forgive that particular sin, even though He can…I think there is more to it than that.

 

[Cinette]

Marsha_Adams:
Marsha I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut very much and shall re-read and reflect on it.

I turned my back on the Catholic Church for 27 years - I just stopped going to Church and didn’t give God a second thought (can you believe it?) Then, out of the blue, I decided to go to Church one day to pray for peace and that was the beginning of my coming into REAL FULL COMMUNION with the Church. After some years even my atheist husband converted. So, that was the Holy Spirit’s doing surely.

If Totally Confused’s friend got cross with the Church (I was also cross for some things) maybe one day, like with me, the Holy Spirit will tap him on the shoulder and bring him back! You never know! You need to pray that “God’s will be done” - and, when you pray you must do so in Faith, Trust and Expectation.

 

[nilofc]

Cinette:
That is an interesting reflection and one that gives us sinners HOPE!!!


Yes. We hope in God.

By the way, the difference between Forgiveness and Mercy is…

"Mercy is when one grants forgiveness when it is totally undeserved."

You agree?

 

[Cinette]

Yes. We hope in God.

By the way, the difference between Forgiveness and Mercy is…

"Mercy is when one grants forgiveness when it is totally undeserved."

You agree?

What a question! I saw that immediately. That is why I was so excited.

Thank you

 

[Cinette]

Hello TotallyConfused!

Further to those quotations from Hebrews here is another:

Luke 12:10 5 Everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

I remember once reading somewhere that the unforgivable sin was found in Hebrews but then what about the passage in Luke?

Would be pleased if someone could help here.

Cheers
Cinette

 

[kage_ar]

Q. What is the unforgivable sin?
Luke 12:10 (see also Matthew 12:32 and Mark 3:29) says:
“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.” (NIV)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to reject His grace. Not allowing the Holy Spirit to work in our lives is blasphemy: It is saying “I know more than God does about what is right for me” which takes away the principle which makes it possible to ask for forgiveness. This manifests itself in four ways: 1) despair concerning the possibility of salvation; 2) presumption of God’s mercy and forgiveness; 3) denial of the truths of faith; and 4) final impenitence and refusal to turn to God. Sins against the Holy Spirit are the most grave because they reject the dignity of the One sent by the Father to sanctify us and restore us to full union with Him. Belief that if anyone fails to be open to the workings of the Holy Spirit in their lives, even once, automatically condemns them to Hell forever is not the teaching of this passage in Holy Scripture. This passage addresses the condition of the soul at the moment of death; prior to that moment, every person has the opportunity to turn to God, have their sins forgiven, and be welcomed home like the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) Recommended reading:
http://www.scborromeo.org/gifs/ball3.gif Catechism of the Catholic Church, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1994, paragraph 1864
http://www.scborromeo.org/gifs/ball3.gif Stravinskas, Rev. Peter M. J., Our Sunday Visitor’s Catholic Encyclopedia, Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington, IN 46750, 1991, page 481
http://www.scborromeo.org/gifs/ball3.gif To Sin Is To Die, Booklet #49, Catholic Information Service, Knights of Columbus, P.O. Box 1971, New Haven CT 06521, 1967

scborromeo.org/glad/c1.htm

 

[nilofc]

Pope John Paul II said that “God in His deepest mystery is not solitude but is a family”

We have Fatherhood, Sonship and the love that binds the Father and the Son, who is the Holy Spirit, the essence of a family.

Anyone who doubts the love of God blasphemes the Holy Spirit.

The verse in Hebrews and the passage in Luke talks about the same thing. Doubting God’s love and mercy is unforgivable, why? it’s not because there is something greater than God’s mercy but rather its the refusal to ask for God’s mercy.

Cooperation is a funny thing…it won’t work if one party doesn’t want it too.

Just my two cents.

 

[kage_ar]

This article is too long to post here, full of official references, ECFs, etc.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6207&CFID=20389634&CFTOKEN=75144591

 

[Cinette]

Q. What is the unforgivable sin?
Luke 12:10 (see also Matthew 12:32 and Mark 3:29) says:
“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.” (NIV)
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to reject His grace. Not allowing the Holy Spirit to work in our lives is blasphemy: It is saying “I know more than God does about what is right for me” which takes away the principle which makes it possible to ask for forgiveness. This manifests itself in four ways: 1) despair concerning the possibility of salvation; 2) presumption of God’s mercy and forgiveness; 3) denial of the truths of faith; and 4) final impenitence and refusal to turn to God. Sins against the Holy Spirit are the most grave because they reject the dignity of the One sent by the Father to sanctify us and restore us to full union with Him. Belief that if anyone fails to be open to the workings of the Holy Spirit in their lives, even once, automatically condemns them to Hell forever is not the teaching of this passage in Holy Scripture. This passage addresses the condition of the soul at the moment of death; prior to that moment, every person has the opportunity to turn to God, have their sins forgiven, and be welcomed home like the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32) Recommended reading:
http://www.scborromeo.org/gifs/ball3.gif Catechism of the Catholic Church, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 1994, paragraph 1864
http://www.scborromeo.org/gifs/ball3.gif Stravinskas, Rev. Peter M. J., Our Sunday Visitor’s Catholic Encyclopedia, Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington, IN 46750, 1991, page 481
http://www.scborromeo.org/gifs/ball3.gif To Sin Is To Die, Booklet #49, Catholic Information Service, Knights of Columbus, P.O. Box 1971, New Haven CT 06521, 1967

scborromeo.org/glad/c1.htm