Ex-Catholics unable to get married?

  • Thread starter Thread starter WholeHeart
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WholeHeart said:
Well, I wasn’t particularly angry until so many people just assumed I was Catholic and should be and wanted to be. At the beginning, it was mainly incredulity… Seriously, why? But I’ve struggled for years with the divisions caused by Catholic doctrine, and this new declaration doesn’t exactly help.
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Fair enough 🙂

Ok to all other folks out there…Let’s all be clear as to where WholeHeart is at… 🙂

…WholeHeart isn’t Catholic and doesn’t believe in the Catholic Church or it’s teaching…She is getting married and her family is supportive…

WholeHeart…I wish you a very happy and fruitful marriage!!! 😃

God’s blessings…👍
 
WholeHeart said:
Well, I wasn’t particularly angry until so many people just assumed I was Catholic and should be and wanted to be. At the beginning, it was mainly incredulity… Seriously, why? But I’ve struggled for years with the divisions caused by Catholic doctrine, and this new declaration doesn’t exactly help.
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Well–honestly–you are going to get that anywhere. There are good reasons for why Catholic doctrine is what it is. That is where talking with a priest would help. I’m not happy now that my husbands Protestant church felt the need to re-baptize me and make me say the sinners prayer…stating I wasn’t “saved”. 🤷
 
Well, most Christians I know do consider Catholics (at least, truly dedicated Catholics) to also be Christians. The only group I ever knew that didn’t thought Catholics, Pentecostals, and Unitarians were equal heretics (Insulting to all of us, isn’t it?). The same group also thought that no English Bible but the KJV was a real Bible.

But I don’t know of any Protestant group that would ever say that a Catholic married couple was not really married (We have issues with the idea of annulment, but that’s a different story).

And I wouldn’t have expected the Catholic church to say such a thing about two people, both virgins, raised in similar backgrounds, who are planning to marry. I thought I respected the Catholic moral views (came down on the same side on the birth control issue, even if I don’t agree with annulment).

That actually might be part of why I care; I once sat down and read an entire book on annulment, for no other reason than that it had a catchy title. I came away with more understanding about marriage in general, and of course the Catholic view of marriage in particular. And I thought I respected that viewpoint, but this new, illogical ruling is about to destroy that respect.
 
I’m having some trouble getting traction with your anxiety here. You’re not really Catholic, and neither is your fiancee, but you’re granting this foreign church jurisdiction over the legitimacy of your marriage because you’re worried about what some of your relatives think.

Take this in the spirit of what the Catholics like to call “fraternal correction”… you’re at serious risk of becoming a schmo. If you live your life to please other people, you will live a life more pathetic than that of the bums who hustle change washing windshields with dirty squegees at intersections. People will be able to read that about you a mile away, and you’ll get zero respect on the job, or from your wife or even from the worthless relatives whose approval you’re trying to win. IF you don’t grow a pair and take control of your own life and mind, you will go through life as a schmo, you will be treated as a schmo, and you will deserve it. :mad:
 
Marie5890 said:
WholeHeart isn’t Catholic
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Yes she is. She doesn’t recognize that fact, but it doesn’t change how the Church views her.

Look at it this way: let’s say you’re born in the US, then move to the UK and become a UK citizen. While living in the UK, you decide that you’re British and not American, and as a result, you don’t pay attention to US laws while in the UK (for instance filing US taxes). That’s fine as long as you stay in the UK and don’t return to the US. However, as soon as you return to the US (even if just visiting), you’ll be treated as a US citizen and the IRS will want their back taxes. (the US won’t let you renounce citizenship over things like taxes)
WholeHeart said:
But I don’t know of any Protestant group that would ever say that a Catholic married couple was not really married (We have issues with the idea of annulment, but that’s a different story).

And I wouldn’t have expected the Catholic church to say such a thing about two people, both virgins, raised in similar backgrounds, who are planning to marry. I thought I respected the Catholic moral views (came down on the same side on the birth control issue, even if I don’t agree with annulment).
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The Catholic Church does view two non-Catholics married in a non-Catholic ceremony as married. The problem comes in when the marriage involves a situation known to violate divine law. For example, if one of the two people was previously married, if the marriage is a polygamist marriage, or if one of the two was subject to Canon Law and willingly violated it. If you were never baptized into the Catholic Church, there wouldn’t be a problem.
 
kenofken said:
You’re not really Catholic, and neither is your fiancee, but you’re granting this foreign church jurisdiction over the legitimacy of your marriage because you’re worried about what some of your relatives think.
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Actually, it’s your particular ecclesial community that claims jurisdiction over the legitimacy of her future marriage. If Catholicism still allowed for formal defection, there wouldn’t be a problem. Her Catholic relatives will be required to believe that her marriage is invalid, and she’d like to avoid that if possible.

I can relate to that on a couple of counts. First, my dad was a former Catholic who married my mom in a civil ceremony; Catholic relatives seemed to take great pleasure in telling me my parents weren’t “really” married when I was a kid. I don’t see too much of those relatives these days, and that’s unfortunate.

Second, I have two nephews who were baptised Catholic but raised Episcopalian, both in their twenties and who will both probably be getting married in the next few years. It would be nice if their Catholic father wouldn’t have to view their marriages as invalid, as that will further estrange them.

I admire the Catholic Church, but to not allow defection (“once Catholic, always Catholic”) just seems [edited].
 
masuwerte said:
Actually, it’s your particular ecclesial community that claims jurisdiction over the legitimacy of her future marriage. If Catholicism still allowed for formal defection, there wouldn’t be a problem. Her Catholic relatives will be required to believe that her marriage is invalid, and she’d like to avoid that if possible.

I can relate to that on a couple of counts. First, my dad was a former Catholic who married my mom in a civil ceremony; Catholic relatives seemed to take great pleasure in telling me my parents weren’t “really” married when I was a kid. I don’t see too much of those relatives these days, and that’s unfortunate.

Second, I have two nephews who were baptised Catholic but raised Episcopalian, both in their twenties and who will both probably be getting married in the next few years. It would be nice if their Catholic father wouldn’t have to view their marriages as invalid, as that will further estrange them.

I admire the Catholic Church, but to not allow defection (“once Catholic, always Catholic”) just seems [edited].
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[edited]

Moreover, the recent elimination of the marriage exemption was a solution in search of a problem. In 2006, Rome laid out a very clear and straightforward procedure for defecting. The new ruling was not needed and in fact demonstrates contempt for the sacrement of marriage. The way it works now, a wayward Catholic can marry once, twice, six times outside of the church, and then if they become reverts, can marry in a Catholic ceremony because the others weren’t “valid” in the church’s eyes. It’s a lawyer’s dodge and it takes a lawyer to even sort out who’s “valid” or not. I formally defected last year but had married in 2006, by which time I was already internally and outwardly defected, having joined another religion. I don’t know whether my marriage is “valid” to the church or not, and I don’t lose any sleep at all over it.

My point to the OP is that you’ve got to live by your conscience and then suck it up and live with your decision. If you hold any sort of real values, Catholic, secular or anything else in this life, you WILL alienate a few relatives and others. If you wheedle and bow and scrape to avoid that, you will earn their conditional approval and permanent contempt. For what? People who have no real love or respect for you from the get-go. If they’re going to storm off in a huff over how you marry, it’s their loss, not yours. You’ll save $75 a plate.

You may have others who decide they cannot attend your ceremony in good conscience but are supportive apart from that. I had a couple of good Catholic friends who did that, and I wasn’t happy as I had sat through their dreadful religious ceremonies, but we have enough miles behind us that it was a small bump in the road in our friendship.
 
I think the OP is more just trying to express a backwards sort of anger at infant baptism being binding - too bad. You are what you are - make your choices - live and die and by them - we all do. Some of us are granted eternal life - some of us give it up to free willas we want to know better and do we want to do.
 
WholeHeart said:
Well, most Christians I know do consider Catholics (at least, truly dedicated Catholics) to also be Christians. The only group I ever knew that didn’t thought Catholics, Pentecostals, and Unitarians were equal heretics (Insulting to all of us, isn’t it?). The same group also thought that no English Bible but the KJV was a real Bible.

But I don’t know of any Protestant group that would ever say that a Catholic married couple was not really married (We have issues with the idea of annulment, but that’s a different story).

And I wouldn’t have expected the Catholic church to say such a thing about two people, both virgins, raised in similar backgrounds, who are planning to marry. I thought I respected the Catholic moral views (came down on the same side on the birth control issue, even if I don’t agree with annulment).

That actually might be part of why I care; I once sat down and read an entire book on annulment, for no other reason than that it had a catchy title. I came away with more understanding about marriage in general, and of course the Catholic view of marriage in particular. And I thought I respected that viewpoint, but this new, illogical ruling is about to destroy that respect.
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Sorry–it was mainstream Protestant. And obviously they did not consider my Catholic baptism enough…nor did they consider me “saved” because I didn’t do it in their form. I won’t even go into what my Protestant “friends” think about me going back to the Catholic church…

Like someone else said…two Protestant’s getting married would be a valid marriage. As what was what my marriage was as I “formally” defected from the Catholic faith…before the clarifications went into effect. It’s not that your marriage would be “immoral” or anything like that. It would be considered legal…but not valid…only in the eyes of the Catholic church. But I seriously doubt that your Catholic relatives would “shun” you over it. Mine never did…there were some issues in a seperate matter. But most of the advice that they would probably receive would be that they would be fine in attending the wedding. Although it would be a nice thing to go talk with a priest about what to do…which may be that you have to send a letter to the Bishop formally renouncing your Catholic faith.

The only difference is how the Catholic church would view your marriage and whether it would be considered sacramental. What matters there is if you would be allowed to receive communion. But there are other reasons you couldn’t recieve communion in a Catholic Church anyway so I don’t think that one would matter. Now…the whole issue about that for you is a seperate issue…but you can’t have it both ways.
 
kenofken said:
**It IS creepy and cult-like, masuwerte. It’s eerily similar to the “1-Billion-Year” contracts that Scientologists have their members sign. **Worse, because the Scientologists at least had a free adult choice to join. It’s absurd that a formally defected Catholic would be held to ANY canon law, but there it is. I would argue that it’s not only absurd, but it cheapens Catholicism’s brand and standing as a moral authority. If being Catholic really requires no more investment than simply being born to European or Latin American decendants, why should serious Catholics work as hard as they do at their faith? Why should bishops be able to grip about “cafeteria Catholics” if everyone is deemed Catholic for life whether they want it or not?
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That is clearly uncharitable of you:(
 
Annabelle_Marie said:
Sorry–it was mainstream Protestant. And obviously they did not consider my Catholic baptism enough…nor did they consider me “saved” because I didn’t do it in their form. I won’t even go into what my Protestant “friends” think about me going back to the Catholic church…
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Well, I’ve known some very hateful Baptists and some very loving Baptists, and I suppose that if I’d only met one type of Baptist I might assume that all Baptists were like the ones I knew. But it’s really impossible to tar all Protestants with the same brush, so to speak; that’s a lot broader classification than Baptist, and I know they’re not all the same! Perhaps I’ve just been around more charitable Protestants than the ones you knew. My group’s attitude was essentially that a dedicated Catholic (primarily dedicated to Christ, secondarily to the Catholic church) was probably a Christian, and it wasn’t our business to judge.

You could also say that I shouldn’t lump all Catholics together, either, but Catholics at least claim to be unified amongst themselves.
 
WholeHeart said:
You could also say that I shouldn’t lump all Catholics together, either, but Catholics at least claim to be unified amongst themselves.
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Catholcis (at least theoretically) are unified in their beliefs. You’ll still find “loving” Catholics and “hateful” Catholics, to use your terms.
 
And you know, it’s pretty tough to imagine that it would be my Catholic baptism, alone and unaided, which would both send me to Hell and invalidate my marriage… That is the official position, isn’t it? That if I had only been infant baptized in the Presbyterian church instead, with my younger sibling(s), I would be fully Protestant, in incomplete communion with the Catholic Church (hence probably or at least possibly going to Heaven someday), and able to validly marry a protestant in a protestant ceremony. As is it, I’ve “chosen” to separate myself from the truth I “had,” so am headed for Hell anyway, and living in immorality on top of it (with no allowances made for the fact that I had no choice in either joining or leaving the Catholic church). So, what benefit is that baptism that you say is “binding”? Is it not rather a curse? And you seriously wonder why I don’t like the idea?
 
WholeHeart said:
So, what benefit is that baptism that you say is “binding”? Is it not rather a curse?
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It is an immense grace and has left an indelible mark on your soul. No matter how much you don’t want to be Catholic, you are until eternity. What happened before is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that you now know, and how you handle that situation without excuses from your past that you had no control over.

You are Catholic. Fix the issues you have with the Church, get right with God, get permission to marry your non-Catholic boyfriend in the Fullness of Faith, and have a grace filled sacramental marriage. And many children. 🙂

~Liza
 
joandarc2008 said:
I think the OP is more just trying to express a backwards sort of anger at infant baptism being binding - too bad. You are what you are - make your choices - live and die and by them - we all do. Some of us are granted eternal life - some of us give it up to free willas we want to know better and do we want to do.
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I think that what the OP was surprised at is the fact that - despite the fact her parents only had her baptized to satisfy her grandmother, and that she herself has never practiced Catholicism…the Church still considers her Catholic by virtue of that Baptism. She did NOT make that choice, which is part of her point.

Clearly, only a priest, well-informed about canon law, the changes re: formal defection as it pertains to marriage, etc., can answer the OP’s questions.

I admit that, even as a lifelong, practicing Catholic, it seems odd to me that someone who never practiced Catholicism, due to her parents’ laxity in that regard, may still be bound by Church law with regard to marriage.

OP…contact a priest in your area and have a good chat.
 
WholeHeart said:
And you know, it’s pretty tough to imagine that it would be my Catholic baptism, alone and unaided, which would both send me to Hell and invalidate my marriage… That is the official position, isn’t it? That if I had only been infant baptized in the Presbyterian church instead, with my younger sibling(s), I would be fully Protestant, in incomplete communion with the Catholic Church (hence probably or at least possibly going to Heaven someday), and able to validly marry a protestant in a protestant ceremony. As is it, I’ve “chosen” to separate myself from the truth I “had,” so am headed for Hell anyway, and living in immorality on top of it (with no allowances made for the fact that I had no choice in either joining or leaving the Catholic church). So, what benefit is that baptism that you say is “binding”? Is it not rather a curse? And you seriously wonder why I don’t like the idea?
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Why would you think your Baptism would “send you to hell”???

Talk to a well-informed priest.
 
lizaanne said:
It is an immense grace and has left an indelible mark on your soul. No matter how much you don’t want to be Catholic, you are until eternity. What happened before is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that you now know, and how you handle that situation without excuses from your past that you had no control over.

You are Catholic. Fix the issues you have with the Church, get right with God, get permission to marry your non-Catholic boyfriend in the Fullness of Faith, and have a grace filled sacramental marriage. And many children. 🙂

~Liza
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This sums up the reality pretty well.

I do think, however, that we can understand what a surprise this all is to someone who has never considered herself Catholic and doesn’t share the Church’s beliefs.
 
Whole Heart, I think I know what you mean. Please don’t take this as rude and read my whole post if you are going to read any of it.

You want to get married outside of what is acceptable to the Church, and you don’t consider yourself Catholic. However you want the Church to agree with your marraige so that you don’t feel guilty and so that your relatives don’t have to view it as invalid. Yes?

The problem is you can’t change the Church’s beliefs. I understand that you are upset, but the Church’s teaching cannot be changed to make another person feel better. Nor to have your relatives view your marraige as vaild. Sure it doesn’t feel good.

You might disagree, but thats just the way it is. Your belief will mean someone will not agree. If you choose not to be Catholic, Catholics will disagree. If you choose to be Catholic, then almost everyone else will not agree. (I state this from your view, from mine you are Catholic, though not practising.)

I think that the reason people have problems with infant baptisim is this exactly. I think, inside they know that the Church is right and feel guilty (don’t take this the wrong way).They don’t want to be condemed but want to make your own choices.

The great this is that you can make choices!!! Even though you are baptised you can ignore it. From your view you don’t have to be worried about punishment for doing so b/c you believe you are right!

So whats the problem? The Church? Your relatives? You will have to decide on what to do. You can only do that, you can’t change other people’s views and beliefs. You can only control your actions.

However if this is in someway a calling from God to return to the Catholic Church, then you have a choice to take it or not. It doesn’t matter what others think. You make the choice and you live with it. If you need advice you can go to a priest or even ask here. But you still make the choice.

Whatever you choose, God Bless and good luck.
 
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