M
Misplaced_Book
Guest
Nor was I referring to anyone specific.
At any rate…my point is still valid, and you obviously agree that it isn’t a good idea to generalize.
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At any rate…my point is still valid, and you obviously agree that it isn’t a good idea to generalize.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Clearly.
G
George14
Guest
What was it about the papacy or the actions of a pope in particular that did the shattering? Clearly you recognize that the pope does not have authority as a person alone, but only in union with the bishops acting as a body. What is the specific that defines “no going back?”
“who he says he is…” – that came from something… Your comments seem to deny the cocept of the “chair of Peter” as we understand it. This is not to argue with you but rather in curiousity as to your thought process in this. There’s no question of our communion, given the tone of your post; God be blessed!
M
Misplaced_Book
Guest
I could never go back to the view that the Pope is has Universal Jurisdiction over the entire Church, is what I mean.
Latin Ecclesiology hinges on the person of the Pope, and his authority as the Pontiff. I am convinced that the Orthodox view is the correct one. When I converted to Catholicism years ago, I never really gave Orthodoxy an honest look. I took Latin Polemics and the arguments against Orthodoxy as truth. Reading Orthodox sources and the discussions on forums such as this gave me a view of the bigger picture, and that there were other points of view. I sought those out, and came away as an Orthodox.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Are you okay with the Orthodox Church (some of them) permitting divorce and re-marriage, despite the words of Jesus to the contrary?
R
Reuben_J
Guest
It goes to show how important support groups are which unfortunately your former church could not provide you with. And how people had stopped going for the mass. A dying church is a phenomenon today though it is not really prevalent. Some of us see this as our duty to make it alive again but some of the less fortunate ones have no choice but to capitulate and migrate to other churches that can offer them their needs.
M
Misplaced_Book
Guest
Quite. The Church has the power to bind and loose (Which Christ also said), and the Church permits second and third marriages as an act of Economia (to prevent the greater sin of Fornication). These marriages are penitential in character (the wedding service for them is not one of celebration) and this of course is all at the discretion of the Bishop. The Church is not saying that “It’s Ok”…What it is saying, is that it recognizes the tragedy and fallen nature of humanity, including the brokenness of Marriages entered into in our world. You assume that there are no consequences for Divorce, you would be mistaken.
If you want to talk about this further, start another thread. I don’t want to de-rail this one.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Good point there. Lesson learnt. Some of the things we say, if we are not careful, can backfire.
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PRmerger
Guest
I have a hard time acceding to a group of men who contradict the teachings of Christ.
What you have professed is that the Orthodox church can contravene any of the teachings of the Apostles under the pretense of “the power to bind and loose”.
This, IMHO, is a perversion of the concept. The Apostles and their successors can never profess anything contrary to the Faith, given once for all, under the “power to bind and loose”.
What you have done is given permission for your church to say, for example, “We now declare that Mary is the 4th person of the Godhead! We proclaim this in order to prevent the greater sin of idolatry” and that you would now have to submit to this teaching.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
This Orthodox belief of remarriages and divorces that I cannot reconcile with. Though the apostles are given the authority to bind and to loose, those authority cannot supersede or against the commandment of Jesus.
M
Memaw
Guest
The Pope does have authority alone, only the Bishops IN UNION with the Pope have any authority at all. The KEYS were given to Peter alone. If a Bishop is going against the Pope, we have no obligation to obey him. God Bless, Memaw
M
Memaw
Guest
They only have that authority when they are in union with the Pope. All the Bishops in the world cannot go over the Pope’s head with their authority. God Bless, Memaw
R
Reuben_J
Guest
That goes without saying, Memaw, but the Orthodox do not care too much about the Pope, so it is a non-starter for them. But even given that their Bishops can bind and loose without the Pope, this authority should not prevail in areas that that are against the command of Jesus like remarriages and divorces. But they do it anyway and I am still unable to rationalize it, me being not an Orthpodox notwithstanding.
M
Misplaced_Book
Guest
orthodoxanswers.org/answer/16/I have a hard time acceding to a group of men who contradict the teachings of Christ.
What you have professed is that the Orthodox church can contravene any of the teachings of the Apostles under the pretense of “the power to bind and loose”.
This, IMHO, is a perversion of the concept. The Apostles and their successors can never profess anything contrary to the Faith, given once for all, under the “power to bind and loose”.
What you have done is given permission for your church to say, for example, “We now declare that Mary is the 4th person of the Godhead! We proclaim this in order to prevent the greater sin of idolatry” and that you would now have to submit to this teaching.
stmichaelsgeneva.org/MoralTeachings–Divorce&Remarriage.htm
And an article on Economia : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_(religion
This will be my last post on this…take it as you will. The foolhardiness of arguing in favor of Orthodoxy on a Roman Catholic board has finally sunk in.
L
Lokadottir
Guest
Personally I do my best not to attack the church. However I believe I have this obligation to pop some bubbles now and then. Reality is an important thing to be aware of. I don’t attack the Church so much as calmly point out its shortcomings (no mean feat as some of it makes me sick to my stomach). Some people think this is the same thing but the intent is an attempt to deflate the crowing of the Churches goodness and the evils of Paganism. People confuse THIS for me thinking that ancient pagans were perfect and christians are evil. I don’t, but since the strong points of Christianity and the weaknesses of the ancient pagans are the ONLY things stated I respond with only information related to the other side of the coin.
I’m also guilty for being on the defensive at times, but I try not to be.
P
PRmerger
Guest
It is only foolhardy if one’s position is untenable.
If one’s position can stand scrutiny, then one ought to welcome the scrutiny.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Still the principle of oikonomia is not much different from the binding and loosing. It is not a carte blanch permission on anything especially if it is against the principle of Jesus’ commandment. And Jesus clearly does not permit remarriages and divorces and no oikonomia should overule them.
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George14
Guest
This to gh4:
I am perhaps as loyal and dedicated to the Cathloc faith as is possible, and that is said in preface to and in sad agreement with your disillusion with how you have been let down.
I have to say that the future of the church may well be much more in the lives, prayers, martrydom of the laity than it is in the hierarchy at this point in history, unless our beautiful new Pope Francis is able to, and will, purge it of its traitors and enemies within.
I am nothing less than appalled at the silence, the omission of LOUD AND CLEAR AND INSISTENT CONDEMNATION OF EVIL by the bishops, and under them, by her priests often not permitted to declare hard to hear things, at this time in our country and all over the western world, where church attendance and devotion have declined by some 70% in the last few decades.
The cover-ups, the failure to preach about the sins of cohabitation, missing mass, contraception, heresy being taught in our "Catholic"universities, inviting our Abortionist in Chief to a KOC dinner – such things cry to heaven for remedy, but we hear nothing.
For the life of me, I cannot recall the word ‘hell’ coming from the pulpit for many many years, yet the scripture readings on a daily basis akmost always distinguish the FEW chosen despite the MANY called. These omissions, much more subtle than outright heresy, are the root cause of the decline and fall of the American Empire, and just in case this isn’t recognized yet by anyone with his eyes open, it pays to look at the national debt clock for today ($17 T) and for unfunded liabilities of $100T and face their inevitable significance–a collapse and the victory of pure evil.
Last night on 60 Minutes, a national security expert made the point that our national security and survival depended on a healthy economy. And if you are a thinking person, it isnt hard to realize the relationship between a national moral ethos and what we have now where personal responsibility is being drowned by the false religion we actually follow. All traceable to A FAILURE OF THE VOICE OF JESUS CHRST TO BE SPOKEN BY THOSE PEOPLE CHOSEN BY HIM TO PROCLAIM RIGHT AND WRONG AND TO LEAD US.
Satan doesn’t dress himself in unattractive black, nor kill us by big obvious loud preannounced military attack, but rather by sweet, gradual, insidious, nearly undetectable mini-steps of moral erosion. God help us!
WHERE ARE THE BISHOPS???
I am perhaps as loyal and dedicated to the Cathloc faith as is possible, and that is said in preface to and in sad agreement with your disillusion with how you have been let down.
I have to say that the future of the church may well be much more in the lives, prayers, martrydom of the laity than it is in the hierarchy at this point in history, unless our beautiful new Pope Francis is able to, and will, purge it of its traitors and enemies within.
I am nothing less than appalled at the silence, the omission of LOUD AND CLEAR AND INSISTENT CONDEMNATION OF EVIL by the bishops, and under them, by her priests often not permitted to declare hard to hear things, at this time in our country and all over the western world, where church attendance and devotion have declined by some 70% in the last few decades.
The cover-ups, the failure to preach about the sins of cohabitation, missing mass, contraception, heresy being taught in our "Catholic"universities, inviting our Abortionist in Chief to a KOC dinner – such things cry to heaven for remedy, but we hear nothing.
For the life of me, I cannot recall the word ‘hell’ coming from the pulpit for many many years, yet the scripture readings on a daily basis akmost always distinguish the FEW chosen despite the MANY called. These omissions, much more subtle than outright heresy, are the root cause of the decline and fall of the American Empire, and just in case this isn’t recognized yet by anyone with his eyes open, it pays to look at the national debt clock for today ($17 T) and for unfunded liabilities of $100T and face their inevitable significance–a collapse and the victory of pure evil.
Last night on 60 Minutes, a national security expert made the point that our national security and survival depended on a healthy economy. And if you are a thinking person, it isnt hard to realize the relationship between a national moral ethos and what we have now where personal responsibility is being drowned by the false religion we actually follow. All traceable to A FAILURE OF THE VOICE OF JESUS CHRST TO BE SPOKEN BY THOSE PEOPLE CHOSEN BY HIM TO PROCLAIM RIGHT AND WRONG AND TO LEAD US.
Satan doesn’t dress himself in unattractive black, nor kill us by big obvious loud preannounced military attack, but rather by sweet, gradual, insidious, nearly undetectable mini-steps of moral erosion. God help us!
WHERE ARE THE BISHOPS???
L
Lokadottir
Guest
Just speaking from my observations among fundamentalists:
rfournier103;11339719:
~I’m spiritual/don’t believe in organized religion.
Ask him to explain “disorganized religion”.
~Too much man-made stuff/doesn’t teach from the Bible.
Like altar calls, revival meetings, dress standards, Bible version standards, and on and on and on…
~It’s a Church of hate.
*Women.
*Gays.
*Won’t let non-Catholics take Communion.
And fundamentalists just loooooove gays, and “women in their place”.
~Because of the sex-abuse scandal they have no moral credibility.
Want a list of phediphile Baptist preachers? The list is long
~Who are they to tell me what I can/can’t do with my body?
Don’t smoke, don’t chew, don’t drink, watch TV…
~I want a divorce and the Church won’t let me.
Divorce is the unforgivable sin in fundamentalist churches.
~The Church is trapped in the past/needs to “get with the times”.
Because the concert arenas/mega-churches are sooo today.
~The Catholic Church always wants money.
At least the CC does not demand a person “tithe” thier income.
~The Church doesn’t want me to read from the Bible.
The average fundamentalist sermon reads one or two Bible verses and the rest of the half hour is filled with the “preacher’s” opinion on what the Bible says.
~The Church doesn’t want me to have a personal relationship with God/Christ.
In actual fact, the average fundamentalist congregation has a “personal relationship” with the preacher.
{/QUOTE]
You assume the only other option is fundamentalism here.
F
ffg
Guest
However, until you are in the presence of truth, you might keep searching with positive intent.
With ex-Catholics, they leave because of a negative experience, or something they don’t like.
People Join the church because they are searching for Truth. Very different.
Therefore people might leave any other faith for positive reasons as they are searching.
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