Ex-Mormon here. I have stopped studying Catholicism for now

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“Keep my commandments continually, and crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.”

What part of keeping the commandments “continually” allows for occasional sin?

If you keep all the commandments all the time, don’t we call that perfection?

Ya gotta be perfect to get into the Mormon VIP heaven.
 
Gazelam, Im guessing you’re here to convince us LDS beliefs are true. The elephant in the room, (despite any topic you’re cleverly arguing) , is whose authority we ultimately trust: Salt Lake City or Rome?

Catholics trust the chair of St. Peter.
You trust the chair of Joseph Smith.
You are asking us to trust the chair of Joseph Smith rather than the chair of St. Peter.

I’d encourage everyone to compare Mormonism and Catholicism side by side. Historical facts, archaeological facts, theological cohesiveness, their saints/leaders, artwork, rituals, financials, etc. These are objective categories.

Every christian group protesting Rome asks us to trust their authority; Mormons are just one of 60,000 christian denominations/fellowships/movements. Gazelam, you’re here to tell us Salt Lake City is better than Rome, and the 59,999 other groups who earnestly claim likewise. Is that correct?
 
He is here to tell us that catholicism is an abomination and the mother of all harlots. Our ministers are corrupt. They deny the power of God. They worship God with their lips only but their hearts are from him.

They believe that there are only two churches. The Church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil. And if you don’t belong to the Church of the Lamb of God then you belong to the church of the devil. And who is the Church of the Lamb of God according to Mormons? Their apostle Packer said that the Church of Lamb of God must have all the saving ordinances of the Gospel, in other words everything from baptism to all the crazy stuff they do in their secret temples. So we are the church of the devil. We worship Satan.

That’s what he wishes to tell us.
 
Gazelam, here’s my Part II:
Regarding subjective experience that leads us one to know Mormonism (or any religion) is true.

I was raised in a broken atheist home in Salt Lake City. My parents had zero religion but my ancestors were Mormon pioneers and my great- great grandmother spent 47 years completing our genealogy back to Adam and Eve. At age 12, after meeting with LDS missionaries, I read the BOM and experienced a mystical ‘burning in my heart’ and dream impressing me that it was true. I bore my testimony in LDS church and tried to get baptized. My mom forbid it. Life went on and I didn’t pursue it.

10 years later, out of the blue, I went through 3 months of supernatural dreams and encounters resulting in my converting from hedonistic paganism to christianity. I wasn’t even searching for God, I hated religion and I hated churches.
The Holy Spirit burned from my toes to the top of my head…indescribable joy, the gift of tongues, prophetic dreams, the words of the Bible living, my entire life changed. This would continue up and down for 20 years. I’ve experienced the outpouring of the Holy Spirit so strong I couldn’t move; barely open my eyes. I’ve seen people’s tooth fillings turn gold. I’ve been given a dozen prophetic words from strangers which came true. I’ve been around several people manifesting intense spiritual power… to this day I’m unable to judge if it was God’s power or demonic power. They all claimed to minister in Jesus’s authority, Bible-in-hand.

I became Catholic because I needed authority. Objective, time-tested. I was exhausted not knowing who to trust.

The charisms of the Holy Spirit (glossolalia, words of encouragement, acts of service, personal visions during Adoration) still manifest in my life, but it’s all submitted to the catechism and my priest. My priest is powerful in the Holy Spirit, but in a deeply humble way, in obedience.
I am blessed to know an order of Maronite monks in my area whose faces contain radical, child-like love and joy. (Hard to describe!) The head monk has the gift of reading souls; he’s truly a mystic. The way they celebrate Mass…so holy, so awesome, pure love.

Above everything I’ve described, the power of the Eucharist tops it all- in terms of feelings of intense certainty. Well, I could go on and on about the feelings during and after confession…
 
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“it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23

So the "after all we can do " simply means to repent of sins and imperfections? Does “after all you can do” include anything else?
 
It’s very simple. Either we can or we can’t. Mormons believe that God does not give us any commandments that we can’t keep. So doing all we can do means to be perfect. Otherwise, God is a liar. And He is not a liar.

It’s not about repentance. Repentance is for sinners and if you are doing all you can do, if you are keeping the commandments continually, you are not sinning.
 
I have a nephew who used to be Mormon but was excommunicated shortly after his mission. Now he’s atheist which is pretty common among ex-Mormons. He made an interesting observation that he shared with me. He said one of his leaders gave a sermon and described the church as a hospital. All of us need care. Some are there for simple therapy. Some for minor procedures. Some for out patient services. Some for more serious surgeries and some are in the ICU. The problem is, that’s not how it is in the Mormon church at all. If you’re not a member and have needs, the hospital is closed to you. You’re not allowed in until after you have healed your own wounds first. If you’re a member in need of intensive care, the hospital is once again closed. You’re kicked out of the hospital until you bind your own wounds and heal yourself. Once you are healed, you can beg to be allowed back in, but only after they painfully open your wounds again and make sure there’s no infection. A deliberately humiliating process. And even after they let you back in, you’re still only sort of allowed to partake of the hospital services. The lie they tell you is that there’s an ICU when there really isn’t.

Mormonism is all about you and your works. Christ is just there to hand out bonuses to the over achievers.
 
I’m a former Mormon myself. Went to BYU, was RS president for a time, temple endowed. I can’t speak to your nephew’s experience, only my own.
 
My only first hand experience was five years ago when I allowed the missionaries in my house and took the lessons. I’m sure it was extended family members who put them up to it. I took the lessons and even agreed to join their church but that only lasted a couple of weeks as the combination of their lessons and my studies caused me to become greatly disturbed. Since then I’ve taken a lot of flack from the family. Particularly from one well meaning guy who pulls no punches when he attempts to describe to me how evil Catholicism is.
 
RuthAnne said:
What does “all you can do” mean? What commandments are you unable to keep? Which commandments does God look the other way and say, he can’t do those ones?
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AngelaMarie said:
“it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23)

So the "after all we can do " simply means to repent of sins and imperfections? Does “after all you can do” include anything else?
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Elder Uchtdorf answered these concerns in his 2015 Conference talk.
The prophet Nephi made an important contribution to our understanding of God’s grace when he declared, “We labor diligently … to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. ”

However, I wonder if sometimes we misinterpret the phrase “after all we can do.” We must understand that “after” does not equal “because.”

We are not saved “because” of all that we can do. Have any of us done all that we can do? Does God wait until we’ve expended every effort before He will intervene in our lives with His saving grace?

Many people feel discouraged because they constantly fall short. They know firsthand that “the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” They raise their voices with Nephi in proclaiming, “My soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.”

I am certain Nephi knew that the Savior’s grace allows and enables us to overcome sin. This is why Nephi labored so diligently to persuade his children and brethren “to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God.”

After all, that is what we can do! And that is our task in mortality!
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Several Latter-day Saint scriptures state that man is imperfect and that God allows time for us to improve ourselves (which in and of itself is an aspect of grace.)

Alma 12:24 …nevertheless there was a space granted unto in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare [for Eternal Life]…

D&C 67:13 Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels; wherefore, continue in patience until ye are perfected.

D&C 78:7 For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.

So you see, there is no Latter-day Saint teaching that man is expected from the start to be perfect, and that he will perish otherwise.

I hope this helps…
 
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Thank you. When i left early 90’s, the concept of grace in any form wasn’t really part of Mormon thought. I see it’s developing
 
RuthAnne said:
Particularly from one well meaning guy who pulls no punches when he attempts to describe to me how evil Catholicism is.
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That is atypical to be fair. That kind of thinking was not part of Mormondom when I lived in Provo. In fact, the Catholic diocese of Salt Lake has a good relationship with the Mormon church last I heard.

Sounds like your experience was more on the negative end of the spectrum.
 
AngelaMarie said:
Thank you. When i left early 90’s, the concept of grace in any form wasn’t really part of Mormon thought. I see it’s developing
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Grace has been part of Latter-day Saint teaching for the beginning, as Catholic scholar Stephen Webb notes:

Two corrections of common misrepresentations of Smith’s theology need to be made at this point. First, Mormons are often charged with denying the efficacy of grace and thus making salvation dependent upon the exercise of the individuals free will. All theologians use the language of effort, reform, and growth, so this is not a fair charge… In any case, Smith describes the process of sanctification as being from grace to grace. Rather than replicating Pelagianism, Smith is siding with that aspect of the Christian tradition best represented by Thomas Aquinas, which says we can and must cooperate with divine grace in order to permit it to actualize our potential for divinization. (Stephen H. Webb,Jesus Christ, Eternal God: Heavenly Flesh and the Metaphysics of Matter (Oxford University Press, 2012))
 
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gazelam said:
Grace has been part of Latter-day Saint teaching for the beginning, as Catholic scholar Stephen Webb notes:
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perhaps, but it wasn’t discussed in any of the meetings, firesides, etc ., when I was Mormon, and living in Provo for 15 years, we were always having talks by the GAs at devotionals, firesides, stake conference.
 
Still not a typical attitude based on my experience back in the 80’s-90’s. And the Mormon church and Catholic church do work together in significant ways. In fact when President. Monson died, the bells of the Magdaline (the cathedral ) tolled for him as the hearse went by.

shrugs
 
This is why depression rates and anti-depressant drug use is so high in Utah. Mormons realize that they can never be good enough. They realize that they will never do all that they can do. It’s no wonder so many abuse drugs and commit suicide. They will never be good enough for the Mormon god.
 
I dont know if that is the cause, though the assumption is understandable. Dont know about the entire Mormon corridor and of course there are more Mormons in CA then in UT.

But I understand why you have drawn that conclusion.
 
gazelam said:
Grace has been part of Latter-day Saint teaching for the beginning, as Catholic scholar Stephen Webb notes:
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Once again you, or fairmormon, got it wrong. You didn’t read the whole text, Webb does not support LDS thought on any of this. If I were able to copy the rest of this paragraph or the proceeding paragraph it would be quite telling in what Webb is really saying. But cheery picking quotes is what the LDS do.
 
Mormons are trying to be more like Evangelicals, so they can become accepted. Thus, the word grace is now in their vocabulary.
 
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