Ex-Mormon Missionaries

  • Thread starter Thread starter cestusdei
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
As I have learned recently, Mormonism doesn’t have a systematic theology. That means that individuals can believe a wide range of things; most Mormon beliefs are not canonized anywhere and therefore can change as the situation warrants, without formally causing a conflict.

What this means to a person trying to converse with a Mormon is that there is no way to form an argument against them. You will always “lose”, because your argument will be a straw man.
 
Reading from Mormon works gives insight on their thinkings and how doctrinal changes are accepted without question. Currently, I’m reading Ogden Kraut’s Century of Doctrinal Revisions speech he gave at BYU Hawaii.
 
The tablets are no longer available they vanished or were taken away accroding to Joseph smith the founder of mormonism.

There is archeological evidence for many if not most of the Biblical stories not so for the book of mormon.

I always ask them If God failed witht the firs century Church in the Middle East and he failed with the church in the new world how do they know he got it right with the LDS?
 
Living here in Salt Lake City South (Mesa, Arizona) the LDS presence is pervasive, and “interesting” We get a LOT of missionaries in the Barrio section of town I live in–though most have stopped coming to my door as my wife and I have posted things like Catholic Holy cards and the Nicene Creed on the front door and window 😃

I’ve noticed that Mormons use “Anti-Mormon” it a way thats meant to portray the same stigma of “Anti-Semitism” or “Anti-Catholic” However, what do Mormons actually mean by “anti-mormon”?

Basicaly, an anti-mormon is anyone who disagrees with Mormon beliefs and theology and in greater or lesser detail can say WHY they disagree. It dosn’t mean that they they think LDS is full of nasty evil people, that mormons are “bad” (in the same way an anti-semite holds that jews are automaticaly bad).

Lets face, LDS rejects logic, example, history, biology, anthropology, linguistics. When it comes down to it, their “proof” is that “burning in the breast”–a subjective feeling that (paging William of Occam here!) is far more likely to be caused by a strong desire to belong to, on the whole, a bunch of likable, clean-living folks than any message from God. Plenty of mutualy contradictory theologies use this subjective feeling “proof” (including Ba’hai and Sikh Dharma) If that is “proof” which is one is right? I’ve never got an satisfactory answer from a LDS in regards to that question
 
Yes that is an example of LDS appoligetics. If some doctrine held by the LDS church for decades is generally accepted to be wrong simply change the doctrine and claim it was never changed.

-D
 
40.png
flameburns623:
Hope this is of some interest. AmandaPS: If Ogden Kraut’s talk were online I’d live to read it as well.
Click to expand...
It used to be. The site (Mormon, not anti-Mormon) I got it from has since disappeared. Let me see what I can find.
 
oat soda:
how do you explain the fact that the pearl of great price is a forgery??
Click to expand...
A forgery? What was forged? I have heard people claim that the book of Abraham in the PofGP is a phony translation, but never have I heard it called a forgery? What was that book forged from? Do you even know what is in the Pearl of Great Price?
oat soda:
or that joseph smith was put in jail because he broke into a mormon run press that was publishing stories of how he was printing money without gold to back it up and married to multiple wives (over 44 at least and married a mom and daughter with husbands approval)?
Click to expand...
When did this happen? When was he jailed for this charge? Where was the jail that he was kept in? When did Joseph Smith print this money you speak of? Where do you get this exact number for the number of wives Joseph Smith allegedly had?
oat soda:
His deceptions and lies can’t be hidden forever. the whole point of life is finding the truth -veritas.
Click to expand...
You can make a bunch of wild accusations, but you need to be able to support your claims. You say that “his deceptions and lies cannot be hidden forever.” How are you sufficiently exposing them in your post? Prove what you have accused Joseph Smith of doing, or admit your error.
 
rod of iron, i like you. your faith in mormonism is impressive and scary. even if i were to show you were this info came from, you still would dismiss it. but, ill give you some links anyways: wordiq.com/definition/Nauvoo_Expositor for the press incident

and the book of abraham: wordiq.com/definition/Book_of_Abraham
he called it the pearl of great price becaused he bought a mummy from borrowed money that contained the papyri.
Considering the flawed character of some of our popes through the years, I don’t put a great deal of weight on such things as his sexual appetites.
Click to expand...
not the same. the pope or any former pope besides peter can’t reveal any aditional truths. smith proposed a new gospels and a new spirit. popes are the servent of the servents of christ, not apostles. i think his sexual appetites are a legitimate critic because he must have been crazy to marry that many women. all mormonism stands on is joseph smith’s testimony. if he can be shown to be crazy or untrustworthy, everything he claims is questionable. wivesofjosephsmith.org/
 
oat soda:
rod of iron, i like you. your faith in mormonism is impressive and scary.
Click to expand...
My faith in Mormonism? Not at all. My faith in in Jesus Christ. He is my Savior. No one else can save me but Jesus.

But when you make all these accusations against Joseph Smith and expect me to buy into them, you have to show me legitimate evidence before I would do so.
oat soda:
even if i were to show you were this info came from, you still would dismiss it. but, ill give you some links anyways: wordiq.com/definition/Nauvoo_Expositor for the press incident
Click to expand...
Okay, I followed that link and read the article, but I did not see any link to this alleged ordinance that was passed. Where can I read the wording of this ordinance to see if it says what the article claims it does? Where is the proof that this ordinance condemned the printing press of this newspaper and made it legal for the city to destroy it? That article made many claims, but it did not provide any supporting evidence so that the reader of the article to analyze the evidence and form his own opinion.
oat soda:
and the book of abraham: wordiq.com/definition/Book_of_Abraham
he called it the pearl of great price becaused he bought a mummy from borrowed money that contained the papyri.
Click to expand...
The Book of Abraham is only a part of the Pearl of Great Price. It is not the entire book. The PofGP also contains the Book of Moses and writings attributed to Joseph Smith. Apparently, you do not know much about the Pearl of Great Price.
oat soda:
not the same. the pope or any former pope besides peter can’t reveal any additional truths.
Click to expand...
No new revelations? What stopped God from revealing truth anymore? If the popes are unable to receive further revelation, they are apparently “spiritually castrated”. How can I trust in a church that is no longer communicating directly with God and receiving more truth from Him?
oat soda:
smith proposed a new gospels and a new spirit. popes are the servent of the servents of christ, not apostles. i think his sexual appetites are a legitimate critic because he must have been crazy to marry that many women. all mormonism stands on is joseph smith’s testimony. if he can be shown to be crazy or untrustworthy, everything he claims is questionable. wivesofjosephsmith.org/
Click to expand...
It’s funny. When I visited the link you gave about the alleged wives of Joseph Smith, most of those women were allegedly married to Smith before the date when he is claimed to have received the revelation instructing him to practice polygamy. If Smith was already practicing polygamy, why would a revelation be needed to instruct him to practice it? If Smith was already practicing polygamy, why didn’t the revelation commend him on practicing it instead of telling Smith to prepare his heart so that he could accept such a doctrine? If Smith was already practicing polygamy, he surely would not have to prepare his heart to accept the practice.
 
The Pearl is a figment of Smiths fertile imagination. I am afraid once they found the scrolls it showed that he had absolutely no idea what they actually said. His own notes condemn him.

The Pope’s know that revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. The apostles themselves warned us of false prophets and how the devil can appear as an angel of light. In an interesting twist I have heard in the dead sea scrolls there is a list of fallen angels. One is named Moroni. If that is the case then I find it intriguing.
 
As to polygamy. It is always amazing how many religious charlatans receive revelations that permit them sexual license. So many convenient revelations. Emma Smith tore up the one that said she was supposed to accept polygamy. She knew the score. Smith married women whose husbands he sent off to other continents to proslytize on his behalf. Come now, can you seriously believe such a thing was approved of by God? If some guy stole your wife and said God told him it was okay would you believe him?
 
40.png
cestusdei:
The Pearl is a figment of Smiths fertile imagination. I am afraid once they found the scrolls it showed that he had absolutely no idea what they actually said. His own notes condemn him.
Click to expand...
I have not seen any evidence that shows that Joseph Smith was the one that translated the Book of Abraham. I have not seen any proof written in his handwriting. Surely, by the time that the papyrus for the Book of Abraham came into the picture, Joseph would have had more education and would have written the translation of that book in his own handwriting. But I have not seen the original manuscript for the translation to determine whose handwriting it is written in. Also, with the amount of time Joseph Smith spent wrongfully imprisoned or on the run, when would he have had the time to translate this Book of Abraham?
40.png
cestusdei:
The Pope’s know that revelation ended with the death of the last apostle.
Click to expand...
If the popes do not receive revelation, then they are not in direct communication with God. Amos 3:7, tells us that God will do nothing unless he reveals to his prophets what He is going to do. If there are no more prophets, then God will not doing anything anymore. This would mean that God has forsaken us.
40.png
cestusdei:
The apostles themselves warned us of false prophets and how the devil can appear as an angel of light. In an interesting twist I have heard in the dead sea scrolls there is a list of fallen angels. One is named Moroni. If that is the case then I find it intriguing.
Click to expand...
Do you have any evidence to support that rumor?
 
40.png
cestusdei:
As to polygamy. It is always amazing how many religious charlatans receive revelations that permit them sexual license. So many convenient revelations. Emma Smith tore up the one that said she was supposed to accept polygamy.
Click to expand...
If Emma tore up this revelation on polygamy, where did Section 132 come from? Brigham Young is the one who claimed that Emma tore up the original document containing the revelation on polygamy. But there is no proof that the document existed before Brigham introduced the revelation to the church in Utah in 1852. Brigham, when introducing that document in Utah in 1852, claimed to have had a copy of the document, not the original, locked in his desk since before Joseph Smith was killed. The Mormon church must claim that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, or else admit that Brigham Young and his successors were not prophets of God. If the Mormon church did not claim that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, it would have no possible claim on being the church that Joseph restored, because Brigham and his successors would have no claim as being true prophets of God. The Mormon church’s claims are self-serving. They have to make the claim about Joseph Smith, or admit that they have been duped by Brigham Young and his successors.
40.png
cestusdei:
She knew the score. Smith married women whose husbands he sent off to other continents to proslytize on his behalf.
Click to expand...
Your evidence, please?
40.png
cestusdei:
Come now, can you seriously believe such a thing was approved of by God?
Click to expand...
No, I don’t. But I don’t believe that Joseph Smith ever really received a revelation commanding polygamy, or that he ever had more than one wife, namely Emma. I do not believe you can show any proof that is not just hearsay.
 
My faith in in Jesus Christ. He is my Savior. No one else can save me but Jesus.
Click to expand...
Rod of Iron,
thanks for taking the time to defend your faith. i enjoy reading your posts. i don’t think we believe in the same Jesus as you are not christian unless you believe in the trinity but this is a different subject. i think there is ample evidence that joesph smith was a liar and made up everything. i would say historical evidence doesn’t support his claim. i imagine the way mormons work around this is by rejecting history.

im more open to historical evidence. if catholics fell away from the true faith of the apostles, give me some proof of this.
 
rod of iron:
It’s funny. When I visited the link you gave about the alleged wives of Joseph Smith, most of those women were allegedly married to Smith before the date when he is claimed to have received the revelation instructing him to practice polygamy. If Smith was already practicing polygamy, why would a revelation be needed to instruct him to practice it? If Smith was already practicing polygamy, why didn’t the revelation commend him on practicing it instead of telling Smith to prepare his heart so that he could accept such a doctrine? If Smith was already practicing polygamy, he surely would not have to prepare his heart to accept the practice.
Click to expand...
So why then was the Navoo Expositer press destroyed? To hide the fact that he was practicing it, and knew that the people would not accept it. Chapter 45 of A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints says that Joseph Smith started practicing it since 1831.

Written by Orson Pratt in that book:
He explained the circumstances connected with the coming forth of the revelation on plural marriage. Refuted the statement and belief of those present that Brigham Young was the author of that revelation; showed that Joseph Smith the Prophet had not only commenced the practice himself, and taught it to others, before President Young and the twelve had returned from their mission in Europe, in 1841, but that Joseph actually received revelations upon that principle as early as 1831. Said Lyman Johnson, who was very familiar with Joseph at this early date, Joseph living at his fathers house, `and who was also very intimate with me, we having traveled on several missions together, told me himself that Joseph had made known to him as early as 1831, that plural marriage was a correct principle. Joseph declared to Lyman that God had revealed it to him, but that the time had not come to teach or practice it in the church, but that the time would come.’ To this statement Elder Pratt bore his testimony. He cited several instances of Joseph having had wives sealed to him, one at least as early as April 5th, 1841, which was some time prior to the return of the twelve from England.
Click to expand...
 
My faith in in Jesus Christ. He is my Savior. No one else can save me but Jesus.
Click to expand...
Rod of Iron,
thanks for taking the time to defend your faith. i enjoy reading your posts. i don’t think we believe in the same Jesus as you are not christian unless you believe in the trinity but this is a different subject. i think there is ample evidence that joesph smith was a liar and made up everything. i would say historical evidence doesn’t support his claim. i imagine the way mormons work around this is by rejecting history.

im more open to historical evidence. if catholics fell away from the true faith of the apostles, give me some proof of this.
 
40.png
AmandaPS:
So why then was the Nauvoo Expositer press destroyed? To hide the fact that he was practicing it, and knew that the people would not accept it.
Click to expand...
I do not know why the Nauvoo Expositor press was destroyed. Joseph Smith was accused of destroying it and jailed for it. But Joseph never came to trial because a mob killed him. So, you can speculate that Smith destroyed the Nauvoo Expositor press, but I have seen no proof that he actually did. Smith had enough enemies out there. For all I know, his enemies destroyed the press to frame him. Why would Joseph allow the law to take him to jail in Carthage if he was guilty? What motivation did he have to go voluntarily? If Smith was guilty, surely his guilt would have been uncovered. But he turned himself in. He had spent enough time in a jail in Liberty, Missouri. Why would he willingly go to jail again, unless he wanted to prove his innocence?
40.png
AmandaPS:
Chapter 45 of A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints says that Joseph Smith started practicing it since 1831.
Click to expand...
You’re quoting from a Mormon history book? The Mormon church has a history with practicing polygamy. Surely, the church would claim that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, or else all the members would have to admit that they have been duped for all these decades and that Brigham Young is a false prophet.

Where is the actual proof that Joseph Smith received a revelation as early as 1831? The only revelation on polygamy that exists was allegedly received in 1843. If Smith was already practicing polygamy since 1831, why didn’t anyone besides Emma claim to have married him until 1833 or after. There is such a tangled web out there trying to discredit Joseph Smith. **Joseph Smith was told that his name would be used for both good and evil. ** Time has shown this statement to be very true.
40.png
AmandaPS:
Written by Orson Pratt in that book:
Click to expand...
I read your quote from Orson Pratt. How many wives did he have? According to the following link, he had 10 wives.

familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=6614528&lds=0

Why would I trust a book written by a polygamous follower of Joseph Smith to tell me whether Joseph Smith was a polygamist? Since the legitimacy of polygamy hinges upon Joseph Smith, Orson Pratt would have to claim that Smith received a revelation commanding polygamy, or else admit that his polygamous practice was illegal and sinful. His claims are also self-serving. He is justisfying his polygamous practice by placing the responsibility on Smith. Was Smith alive when Pratt wrote his book? If not, Smith could not defend himself against the claims of Pratt’s book.
 
rod,

They have his notes. They show Egyptian characters AND his translations of them. They do not match. The man was making it up. No non-mormon egyptologist accepts his translation.

You can have contact with God and not receive general revelation. Mormon revelations contradict earlier ones and certainly contradict what the early Church believed. Your god changes his mind our God does not.

Smith did have more then one wife. Emma tore up her copy, but that didn’t mean Joseph did not have another one. To argue he was monogamous is simply ridiculous. Even the mormon church generally doesn’t try to argue that he wasn’t polygamous. They downplay it, but it is a fact. To argue against a proven fact only undermines your credibility. I have argued with mormons before and seen the blinders come down over their eyes. Suddenly black is white and white is black. I guess I should say “white and delightsome” oh but now it is “pure and delightsome”. The Indians will have to wait to become white aryans.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top