ex-mormon wants to talk

[Chris_Jodrey]

(continued)

For example, there was a young couple in my branch in my mission who had been baptized a year before, but now were inactive. We went to visit them and the woman was very cold, very uninterested in going back to Church, hearing a scripture, or anything else. She said she was tricked into getting baptized and that she really didn’t want to, and that later she learned all kinds of weird stuff we believe in, and she wanted out. So we decided to do some research. We talked to the members. Apparently, she was stoked to get baptized, incredibly enthusiastic, and received some great callings the same way. She was so excited! Then a few months after baptism she went to visit her family in another state. She came back totally inifferent to the Church. She refused to go, to let the missionaries in or anything. Apparently her family was made up of evangelists. So I thought, “Oh ****, they must have told her lots of anti-Mormon **** about us.” Actually, the reasons were much more mundane, things like familial threats of disowning and the like. We talked to her later in order to try to talk some sense into her. I asked her what doctrine she had the biggest problem with. She just looked up for a few seconds and said slowly, “Joseph Smith…?” Well, she knew nothing of the evangelists’ doctrine (she knew a little more of ours, actually) and she forgot most of what she had been taught in the Church. This is a classic example that I have seen several more times in the past.

Now, I’m sure there are some cases where people really do feel disillusioned by doctrines they hadn’t known about before and for that reason distance themselves. It happened to me. I ran into anti-Mormon stuff before the mission and it was very troublesome to me. It took me a while to get properly informed of the issues discussed by that guy. Now, I’m not stupid and I doubt I’m brainwashed, and I am familiar with anti-Mo trash literature. Then why haven’t I left the Church…? Good question. I think it’s because it’s just not that simple. I believe that the Book of Mormon is untouchable, actually perfect, that there is no good argument against it, and I believe that because I have studied what the anti-Mos say about it. I also acknowledge that not everything is that air-tight, such as the Book of Abraham. But, I believe that in the future our defenses for it will be greatly strengthened.

I think that if we are in the Church of God, those who leave it do it because of themselves (their own complexities, problems, pride, etc), not the Church. (Actually, it would be just like blaming God for the bad things that happen to them.) This can be applied to the RCC and LDSC and any other church. So if a Catholic apostasizes because of Mary-worship, that means one thing to knowledgable Catholics and one thing to others. 1) “That person was badly informed about Catholic dogma and has made a terrible mistake”; or from the other side, 2) “That guy finally opened up his eyes and saw the light.” Works the same all the way round the circle of religions big and small.

 

[majick275]

Well, you and I obviously disagree on many spiritual “truths”. I did find your post good food for thought though and well worth reading.

 

[Casen]

majick275:

I also think the LDS would be better served by a lengthier more detailed “conversion” process similar to Catholic RCIA. That way you wouldn’t have people learning that they don’t agree with the doctrine AFTER they are baptized.

I’m sure this does occur in certain instances but in my experience the number one reason that many converts fall away from the LDS church is social. A convert may truly believe the doctrine but once the missionaries that taught them move on it can be very difficult if they haven’t established social ties. That’s why the church encourages missionaries to include members in the discussions and President Hinckley has repeatedly stated that every new convert needs two things: a friend and a calling. When those things are present the retention rate is very high, which leads me to conclude that doctrinal disagreements are much lower on the list.

Regarding the practice of committing people to baptism early on in one of the first few discussions you have to understand that missionaries are taught to do so when the spirit is strongest. In my experience as a missionary the spirit was usually strongest in the first or second discussion so that’s when we would challenge a person to baptism if we felt prompted to do so. Generally if a person wasn’t committed to baptism by the third discussion we would not proceed further but rather would focus on reading the Book of Mormon and prayer until the person gained a testimony and was ready to proceed further. Since subsequent discussions cover topics such as tithing and the Word of Wisdom, we usually felt we couldn’t commit a person to live those laws if they hadn’t at least gained a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Once that occurs then committing someone to baptism is the natural next step and you can then move onto other topics.

 

[majick275]

I agree that LDS conversions tend to be HEAVILY influenced by social factors. I won’t criticize that and find that it’s common in many churches. I do find it hard to see how they could “truly believe the doctrine” if they didn’t know what it was. With relatively short “teaching” time before baptism and no catechism it can take a lot of time to learn the doctrine. In some of the less defined areas such as the Endowment it can take a lifetime. (Spencer Kimball is a good example of this)

The LDS approach seems to appeal on the same level as most MLMs. (not surprising since the techniques are similar) I don’t say that to be demeaning but to point out the dynamics of the conversion process. It seems less “study it out in your mind THEN ask God” than “don’t you want all of this?” “Join us and have it”.

I prefer the RCIA approach of teaching everything up front THEN asking the person if they believe this.

 

[Chris-WA]

majick275:

I agree that LDS conversions tend to be HEAVILY influenced by social factors.

I would further add that the reason many LDS join in the first place is social, not doctrinal. Prospective converts are introduced to a tightly-knit group of believers who are very friendly and take care of each other (something I greatly admire by the way). Perhaps in their former church they weren’t sought after and included to the degree that they see in the LDS church. In the Mormon church, you don’t have to volunteer to be active. They will come find you. The church takes the reins rather than waiting for the individual to become active.

I won’t criticize that and find that it’s common in many churches. I do find it hard to see how they could “truly believe the doctrine” if they didn’t know what it was.

Excellent point. Newly baptized LDS converts know very little about the doctrines of the Mormon Church, and before long they’re already out teaching others via home and visiting teaching, even though they know very little themselves.

 

[Casen]

majick275:

I agree that LDS conversions tend to be HEAVILY influenced by social factors. I won’t criticize that and find that it’s common in many churches. I do find it hard to see how they could “truly believe the doctrine” if they didn’t know what it was. With relatively short “teaching” time before baptism and no catechism it can take a lot of time to learn the doctrine. In some of the less defined areas such as the Endowment it can take a lifetime. (Spencer Kimball is a good example of this)

True, but hopefully we’re continuing to learn and progress spiritually our entire lives, “line upon line, precept upon precept.” I guess we just disagree on where to draw the line.

majick275:

The LDS approach seems to appeal on the same level as most MLMs. (not surprising since the techniques are similar) I don’t say that to be demeaning but to point out the dynamics of the conversion process. It seems less “study it out in your mind THEN ask God” than “don’t you want all of this?” “Join us and have it”.

Now that’s just plain silly. MLMs entice people through greed (i.e. the promise of worldly riches). All successful world religions appeal to something noble that is engrained in the human spirit

 

[Casen]

Chris-WA:

I would further add that the reason many LDS join in the first place is social, not doctrinal.

This is completely wrong.

If there’s one thing the LDS church knows something about it’s proselytizing, hence the enormous growth the church has experienced.

All the research shows that most converts join at great sacrifice and at the expense of their existing social structure. Sure, they gain the society of the saints in return but such a structure takes months if not years to establish. They’re usually leaving their existing social world behind when they join the church; family, relatives, friends, colleagues, all outside the church. Indeed, for LDS investigators the social aspect is usually the greatest impediment to a believing investigator and often times the very thing that prevents them from joining. And once they do join their previous social structure outside the church is the major factor pulling them away from the church. They eventually get a new social structure but this takes time.

Why can’t you just admit that most converts to any religion are sincere? You may believe they’re misguided or wrong but can’t you accept that they’re sincerely doing what they believe is right? They join because they believe what they are taught and as they learn more after their conversion they tend to become stronger believers. Those that fall away usually do so for reasons other than doctrinal onces.

 

[Chris-WA]

Casen:

All the research shows that most converts join at great sacrifice and at the expense of their existing social structure. Sure, they gain the society of the saints in return but such a structure takes months if not years to establish. They’re usually leaving their existing social world behind when they join the church; family, relatives, friends, colleagues, all outside the church. Indeed, for LDS investigators the social aspect is usually the greatest impediment to a believing investigator and often times the very thing that prevents them from joining. And once they do join their previous social structure outside the church is the major factor pulling them away from the church. They eventually get a new social structure but this takes time.

Why can’t you just admit that most converts to any religion are sincere? You may believe they’re misguided or wrong but can’t you accept that they’re sincerely doing what they believe is right? They join because they believe what they are taught and as they learn more after their conversion they tend to become stronger believers. Those that fall away usually do so for reasons other than doctrinal onces.

Sorry, Casen. Perhaps I’m being too critical here. But I do think it’s hard to make a good doctrinally-based decision to join with very little doctrine to go on. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the church slowed the discussions process to give the candidate more time to digest the doctrine and learn it in more depth.

 

[majick275]

Casen:

True, but hopefully we’re continuing to learn and progress spiritually our entire lives, “line upon line, precept upon precept.” I guess we just disagree on where to draw the line.

Now that’s just plain silly. MLMs entice people through greed (i.e. the promise of worldly riches). All successful world religions appeal to something noble that is engrained in the human spirit

I will disagree on two levels.

First I was speaking to the techniques, this involves recruiting friends and testifying to the benefits it brings in your own life. There is an appeal to one’s sense of belonging. Join people who you like/respect/etc. Not greed so much as trust. Something noble like you can keep your family together forever, achieve the peace and happiness that we have, trust us and see.

Second, now that you mention it there is something like the greed appeal. The promise of eternal riches. Literally kingdoms without end and eternal increase. Satan’s original approach applies “you shall be as the Gods”.

 

[gryskull]

1. false doctrine they are check your teachings.
2. how can an infant chose to follow christ. were does it say to do it. what your ecf putting or changing the teachings of the aposles. were exactly does it say to do it.
3. the only person who can help you is jesus christ not his mum. where in scripture is it preformed.

Paul,

The ECF(Early Church Fathers) are the people who learned from the apostles themselves. Just think of Timothy who learned from Paul himself. Luke who learned from Paul also and eventually wrote the third synoptic gospel. The faith has been passed on from generation to generation thru the instructions of the apostles down to the present day. There was no bible, at least not in the current form, until the 4th century. A discussion has been started about this subject on this thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=72338

so your argument on no. 2 is something you have to think about. You might want to ask some of your co-members who are quite familiar with them also.

 

[majick275]

Casen:

This is completely wrong.

If there’s one thing the LDS church knows something about it’s proselytizing, hence the enormous growth the church has experienced.

All the research shows that most converts join at great sacrifice and at the expense of their existing social structure. Sure, they gain the society of the saints in return but such a structure takes months if not years to establish. They’re usually leaving their existing social world behind when they join the church; family, relatives, friends, colleagues, all outside the church. Indeed, for LDS investigators the social aspect is usually the greatest impediment to a believing investigator and often times the very thing that prevents them from joining. And once they do join their previous social structure outside the church is the major factor pulling them away from the church. They eventually get a new social structure but this takes time.

Why can’t you just admit that most converts to any religion are sincere? You may believe they’re misguided or wrong but can’t you accept that they’re sincerely doing what they believe is right? They join because they believe what they are taught and as they learn more after their conversion they tend to become stronger believers. Those that fall away usually do so for reasons other than doctrinal onces.

I have to challenge this. Please give an example of objective research on this. My experience (not any more significant than your or anyone elses) is otherwise. I would like to see actual studies with sound methodology showing a majority of LDS converts making any type of social sacrifice to join up.

I have around too long and seen too much to just admit that religious converts are sincere. They may be sincere in their desires but far too many act with too little study and follow fads or act on “feelings”. Look at moonies, new agers, sedona, wicca, evangelicals. Lots of folks joining BEFORE they are taught and thus sadly, too many do become stronger believers in many false doctrines as they are conditioned or rationalize.

My experience with LDS is that social conversions often lead to doctrinal “falling away”. I have not seen many doctrinal conversions to LDS but the few I saw were very active in spite of social environment. (within their ward)

 

[Chris_Jodrey]

I couldn’t tell you about any official studies, but it is the experience of just about every LDS missionary that social factors almost always go against converts rather than for them. Sometimes the new social environment establishes itself very quickly, but usually it’s gradual. I’ve experienced both kinds. It’s a give and take situation always. I’ve baptized people who were essentially disowned and financially abandoned for doing so. I’ve also baptized not very socially active people that aren’t affected negatively by outside others because of their conversion. Those really are few though. I think I may have seen three or four like that in my whole mission. Definitely, the number one reason people don’t get baptized is fear of rejection from family and friends. You wouldn’t believe how many times we met wonderful people who were ready and believing and willing only to find out that their spouse was so against it that they would throw them out of the house for it, and so the investigator would usually freak and not do it. Social sacrifices usually outweigh the immediate benefits by a ton.

Having said that, yes, sociability is very important. If it was all pure doctrine we wouldn’t have many converts. Who really defines when one is ready to convert to something anyway? No one is going to have a perfect knowledge of what they’re doing. They can’t, and they shouldn’t anyway. Neither should people put off their salvation because they’re not sure enough yet. They might spend their whole lives in doubt even when they’re pretty sure it’s true. Satan creates doubt, God gives faith. Having said that, you also have to judge prudently. You need a basic understanding of the doctrine, experience in living like a member, and a change of heart among other things. That’s often why missionaries set dates with people and are very insistent on things like baptism. People need help realizing when they’re ready and the encouragement to conquer their fear and doubt. So, the question is again, Who can say when enough is enough? Is it in the scriptures? It’s in the LDS scriptures. Is it in the Bible? It seems like people got baptized there with very little doctrinal background. I think the D&C is much more demanding in its requirements for baptism than is the Bible, which in my opinion doesn’t expound it as clearly. Maybe we could discuss that.

 

[majick275]

Good post. I found your experiences of interest. My experience in LDS conversions has been that the few folks that the missionaries “find” tend be humble people with glaring needs. (often they have no social life, little famil/friend interaction and are already poor financially) The majority of the converts come from member referrals that are either family or friends (more often). These come with pre-packaged social support of sufficient weight to get them investigating in the first place.

I realize the Biblical accounts of quick conversions and immediate baptisms. I chalk that up to the physical presence of Christ and/or his apostles who saw him in the flesh. (looking at the change in Moses countenance after meeting God as background i assert a definite benefit to those who served God personally during his earthly ministry). It was also a begining time with little clearly defined “church”.

I would have you compare that with early LDS which has some parallels. When in recent times have LDS done like BY or John Taylor and preached to a group then baptizing the believers immediately? I think God established a church that is capable of growth based on what he started it with. (I am assuming you feel the same about the LDS church?)

 

[Chris_Jodrey]

Yes, humility is the key. Sometimes LDS converts, and converts to other churches too, are poor or in need of help in some way. Alma 32 is a good lesson. Give it a read-through. There are also those that are strong yet still humble. They have no serious problems. They are normal, or even extraordinary people. But if they humble themselves before God then they will know what their weaknesses are; they will constantly seek to improve and be closer to God, and so they will become so. Let me go off on a tangent a little.

We should all be that humble. The church we are in certainly matters, but no matter what our belief we should always seek truth in all places. Joseph Smith taught that Mormonism has the capacity to take in all truth while filtering out the deception and falsehood. I highly agree with that. If we follow that rule then the argument of “my church is better than yours” becomes obsolete. True that there is one true Church, but if we are all humble followers of Christ then we will eventually be led into it. I’ve thought about this a bit before. There have been times in my life when I was a blind follower, meaning that I would have defended the Church and proclaimed my religion without really feeling or even suspecting it was true. If I had really been in error and someone came to me preaching the truth, I would not have accepted him, possibly out of fear, apathy, and pride. Now I don’t think the same way.

We don’t need to accept all churches and people as the true Church as many today believe, but we should be patient and open-minded and hear them out. Striving to understand why people believe what they believe is much more important than trying to understand why what they believe is wrong and what we believe is right.

I realize the Biblical accounts of quick conversions and immediate baptisms. I chalk that up to the physical presence of Christ and/or his apostles who saw him in the flesh. (looking at the change in Moses countenance after meeting God as background i assert a definite benefit to those who served God personally during his earthly ministry). It was also a begining time with little clearly defined “church”.

Yes, exactly! and that is the Holy Ghost. I’d say that those mass conversions of NT times should be considered miracles. Now, the BOM says that miracles only cease when there is no more faith among the children of men. So, faith is directly proportional to miraculous events such as mass conversions. When we show God our faith he blesses us. The apostles, though men, were very special in the sense that they had very great faith. They were given great blessings. The same types of things happened in the early LDS history, such as Dan Jones baptizing thousands and thousands. It’s due to the Holy Ghost. When one recognizes his answer, they can consider that answer as good as from God. So, for missionaries, their faith invites the Spirit. When the people feel that much of it and exercise their faith in what they’re learning they get a further confirmation. That’s the lifelong cycle to a perfected faith. That’s how people like Moses end up seeing God.

I think God established a church that is capable of growth based on what he started it with. (I am assuming you feel the same about the LDS church?)

I’m not sure I understand what you meant here. Could you rephrase, please?

 

[misterX]

A Interesting look at two different religions.
… When a Catholic is accused or has his faith questioned He will back it up with text, Qoutes from From notable figures of history. he will show evidence of why is his Church doctorines is so. on the other hand after reading these post by mormons. they have two ways of defending their faith 1. Just state “we are right you are wrong” Then caste more accustations back (usaly false) or
2 they just ramble on sensely until the listener gets bored and gives up.
This is why i’m Catholic

 

[Zakuska]

You’ve obviously never atended mass in rome.

Thats why Im LDS.

 

[misterX]

Zakuska:

You’ve obviously never atended mass in rome.

Thats why Im LDS.

All they do is talk about lds’s during Mass at Rome?* I think you’re being dishonest… Yeah they might talk a lot during mass. but they talk about God and Jesus.*
*Maybe you people should try it. Or don’t you want to talk about what God and jesus says and commands? *
We do all the time.
Thats another reason why i’m catholic

 

[jediliz]

I don’t want to be a “god” - that’s why I’m Catholic
I don’t need my own planet - That’s why I’m Catholic
I can marry a Catholic, I don’t need a “worthy” spouse - That’s why I am Catholic

The warmth I felt surge through me right after my confirmation - That’s why I am Catholic.

I’m Godmother to an adorable little angelic child (though I might change my mind when she turns 2 next March ) - That’s why I am Catholic

Saint Elizabeth, Saint Claire, Saint Francis, Saint Gerald, etc - That’s why I am Catholic

I’m not required to donate any money to go to Mass - That’s why I am Catholic. (I do make a donation at Easter Time to the Rice Bowl and I have put money in the collection basket at Christmas Time.)

 

[Zakuska]

misterX:

All they do is talk about lds’s during Mass at Rome?* I think you’re being dishonest… Yeah they might talk a lot during mass. but they talk about God and Jesus.*
*Maybe you people should try it. Or don’t you want to talk about what God and jesus says and commands? *
We do all the time.
Thats another reason why i’m catholic

Been there done that… they talked more about St this or St that than they did Jesus or God.

Ever tried an LDS Sacrament Meeting? Maybe “you people” should try one.

I’m not required to donate any money to go to Mass

Hmm me neither .no plates passed around our congregation… all Donations are done descretly after words.

Thats why Im LDS.

 

[misterX]

Zakuska:

Been there done that… they talked more about St this or St that than they did Jesus or God.

.

Yeah st this and st that. and the deeds they did in Gods name. Telling us what can be done when God works through us. stories of self scarafice in the name of God for the good of others. Not how we are all going to get our own planet etc. But you’re getting off track here from my O.P. Which was about how lds can’t mount a decent defence of their own faith. it’s just endless dribble or the good old “no you’re wrong” arguments.